How to touch wheels and not fall off?

dustoyevsky@mac.com

On May 27, 11:15*pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> On May 27, 6:24 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:56:41 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
>
> > <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> > >If the guy ahead of you swerves and his rear wheel hits your
> > >front wheel, your front wheel will be forced to turn and you will
> > >fall. *The only possibilities of escaping involve turning with him, or
> > >braking so your front wheel is steerable again, but I doubt anyone has
> > >fast enough reflexes to do that in time.
>
> > If you ever get a chance, watch final sprint of *Gent-Wevelgem 2004
> > from above. *Kirsipuu comes across Hammonds front wheel for a solid 3
> > or 4 second and Hammonds holds it up and doesn't crash.
>
> > Also, braking is not good in that situation. *Fighting agains the
> > force trying to turn your wheel is usually best.
>
> Obviously there could be many degrees of overlapping and amounts of
> force applied by a rear wheel to a front wheel, and unless you can
> produce a link to a video I have no idea exactly what happened in the
> case you cite. *However, if someone overlaps your front wheel by a
> couple of inches and continues to cross in front of you, as is
> typical, the leverage and his momentum against your front wheel are
> going to be very hard to overcome.

Gosh, I'm just a Cat III Forever parking lot racer, not anything like
a pro, but I once had a dumbbell intentionally hook me coming around
the last corner of a crit, and his fashionably-but-stupidly forward-
facing rear skewer handle snagged a spoke in my front wheel. He kept
going, even tightening his line (really really really trying to take
me down at that point) and dragged me along, front wheel sliding, for
say, a quick count to three, before I came off, spoke bent to a new
shape, wheel wobbling all over the place, my handlebars pointed well
to the right. He got third, I think, I got seventh. Yes, it was "very
hard to overcome", but we were sprinting anyhow, you know?

Fortunately, my club had some good riders who knew what they were
doing, and taught all who would watch, listen, and learn. Not entirely
altruistic on their part, of course! <g>

Dusty can only wonder at "club rides" that feature crashes. There's at
least one famous one here in Austin, going on for years. Haven't been,
personally. I'm such a chickenshit, I missed the Death Ride in Houston
every time I had the chance (Tuesdays, IMS) to attend during our four
years there.

> If he barely touches you, of course
> you have a chance, but if his momentum carries him 6" across your
> wheel you're screwed.

Maybe. Certainly worth a fight to stay up.

> Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
> enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
> doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.

I'd guess that some good percentage of such crashes feature "brakes
on" activity.

You get a grip, steer into the bike ahead, the one you're overlapped
on. Maybe gently, maybe with everything you've got. You get your
balance back together with your course of direction, and slide off the
wheel. There's no "complication" to it.

Beginners especially should not be allowed to overlap wheels,
especially when they don't know what "overlap wheels" means in the
first place. And you have to show them, not just talk about it.

Dang, I keep meaning to post about the kewl front wheel slide my old
mentor and riding buddy did a couple of months ago now.

We rolled right up to an off-camber, well-polished 90deg corner,
leaving a busy street. He followed me instead of the usual other
order, and didn't take the good line. We've been through there lots
faster... Anyhow, I heard a noise from behind that lasted maybe a
little less than a second, by immediate "playback" ("one thousand..."
IOW, maybe not quite long enough for the "one") But maybe it was more
than one second. A good long Scraaaape! but no bang/ooof. Went back,
saw spots on the pavement from AC condensate maybe, or diesel/other
fuel spills, but no obviously slick spots, tested with bike tire for
"slippery". His front tire was well-scuffed all the way up the label
on the slid side, all the way around. Dragged it real good. Rode home
more carefully. Tire went to the Hall of Fame.

Well, sometimes it's better to just go ahead and crash but I have a
story or two for that one, too, as do we all.

First thing you gotta teach the newbies, if they'll let you, is not to
overlap and what to do when you get caught for it because you let
yourself get overlapped even after being told not to when you
shouldn't have been overlapped in the first place, especially when
it's on another newbie who doesn't know what a "line" is yet. And you
have to show them, not just talk about it. --D-y

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Wed, 28 May 2008 10:17:36 -0700 (PDT), "dustoyevsky@mac.com"
<dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:

>Certainly worth a fight to stay up.

Yeah, besides the great details you gave, this is sooo important. And
important in other situations. In trouble situations on the bike too
many people either panic and jerk something like the bars or their
brakes and take themselves out (I think this is why people crash when
a squirrel runs into their wheel) or accept that they are going down
w/o fighting it.

The only time to accept going down is when staying up or delaying the
fall would be worse -- say you have a choice being going down right
away in a slide or going down later by flipping over a wall or into a
car or something.

Bret

On May 28, 1:50*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As someone who has spent a relatively large amount of time with my
> wheels in weird places and a relatively small amount of time lying on
> the ground, bleeding, I'd suggest that the best advice is not to panic.

Long ago on the Tuesday evening training race (Bustop ride) from
Boulder, I was in a train moving forward just before the final sprint.
Someone tried to switch abruptly to the wheel I was on and we bounced
off each other for a while. Neither of us crashed but we both got
knocked out of the sprint. I later found out that his front wheel had
ripped an adjustment screw out of my rear derailleur. It was Scott
Berryman who was one of the top match sprinters in the country. I'm
guessing that he weighed about 220 lbs at the time. We're rolling
along together and I'm griping at him about switching over to the
wheel like that without looking to see if it's occupied. His answer
was that I should ride track and then I wouldn't get so excited when
things like that happened. Then he tried to sell me a track bike. I
remember thinking that I didn't need to get used to that. Over twenty
years later I ran into him on a training ride. He's the same
gregarious fellow and we had an interesting conversation. I mentioned
the Bustop incident and found he has no recollection at all.

Anyway, I think Potter should build a velodrome in his backyard. If
you build it they will come.

Bret

dustoyevsky@mac.com

On May 28, 1:15*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 10:17:36 -0700 (PDT), "dustoyev...@mac.com"
>
> <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> >Certainly worth a fight to stay up.
>
> Yeah, besides the great details you gave, this is sooo important. And
> important in other situations. In trouble situations on the bike too
> many people either panic and jerk something like the bars or their
> brakes and take themselves out (I think this is why people crash when
> a squirrel runs into their wheel) or accept that they are going down
> w/o fighting it.
>
> The only time to accept going down is when staying up or delaying the
> fall would be worse -- say you have a choice being going down right
> away in a slide or going down later by flipping over a wall or into a
> car or something.

If I may: the point being that part of "the fight" is being aware that
there are options.

Time slows down-- did you see the TV show where they dropped a
"volunteer" guy into a net from pretty high up, and he could read
faster than "normal" (not falling) from the random numbers being
rapidly sequenced on a screen he was holding, while calling out said
numbers into a microphone on the way down? True, not a well-controlled
experiment, maybe more a demonstration. Moot! We've all experienced
the phenomenon.

(begging the indulgence, please):
Out for a fine, blasting ride in the Midwest cornfield countryside one
day, when:

"Ooops, we have arrived at speed at a jink in the road, and our line
through the ess has turned out to be piled high with river bottom
gravel. Ball bearings, as usual. We're sliding and fishtailing through
it, trying to stay up, no way to make the corner now, since we can't
turn without sliding out. OK, let's stay up here! Damn, this is gonna
be close! But look, Paul, who was riding just ahead of me, has
ascertained that his momentum will carry him through the gravel (and
no, we can't ride in this stuff at all, as usual), and well past what
has revealed itself to be a very narrow solid shoulder on the other
side of the road, and down into the vertical-wall bar ditch which
looks to be some six feet deep, or more. Reluctantly, he acquiesces to
a painful low-sider, bike toward the ditch, just in time to avoid a
really bad fall into the unknown, since we weren't able to see the
near side of the ditch or for that matter, the bottom, which could
have had "anything" in it. For myself, not wanting to run over my
friend and teacher (who is on the ground now, and grimacing at the
impact and the grinding), or, although I do maybe have an open line
past Paul, go down into the ditch myself, which looks worse the closer
we get to it, I will slap it down real quick right here! Ow, dammit!
Crap! I'm OK. Hope I didn't scrape up the bike too bad..."

Got up, said some words while picking out gravel, (crap, you just
can't see that stuff sometimes), checked out bodies/bikes, no severe
damage anywhere, rode back to town and got mostly happy before we got
home. Minor road rash, a little bruising, nothing compared to what
could have been.

One of the best riding lessons ever!

Can I get a witness...? --D-y

Paul G.

On May 28, 10:16 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 28, 7:01 pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 28, 2:40 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:15:22 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
>
> > > <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> > > >Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
> > > >enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
> > > >doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.
>
> > > No, braking would be bad, even in if you were fast enough. Braking
> > > reduces ones control over the bike and puts more weight forward.
>
> > Nothing "reduces one's control" like having one's front wheel turned
> > by someone else's rear wheel. I'd be happy to demonstrate. Let's make
> > it interesting, say $100 if you can stay upright after I clip your
> > front wheel with my rear. 6" of overlap ( I don't want your skewer
> > tearing up my spokes), we start with our wheels 12" apart. I cut in
> > front of you, you hit the deck and I collect the $100. Starbucks. Be
> > there. You'll be wearing purple afterwards, that's for sure. Unlimited
> > refills, just bring $100 for each match.
>
> > And how about a side bet- another $100 says I don't fall. That's one
> > of the most maddening things, the guy who cuts in front of you barely
> > notices the contact, and wonders why all those guys piled up behind
> > him.
> > -Paul
>
> There is a difference between touching wheels from overlap, and
> getting taken out by somebody cutting you off. Avoiding going down on
> the latter is as you say quite hard. But some people seem to get taken
> down by what should be recoverable contact like the former.
>
> Joseph

All that is surely true. If you can keep your balance you can stay
up. I'm just saying that their rear wheel can easily push your front
wheel aside, but no matter how good you are, you can't simply push
someone's rear wheel aside with your front wheel. Some reasons why
this is true:
* most of their weight is on their rear wheel, and most of your weight
is not on your front wheel.
* the rear wheel is held firmly in the frame, requiring no strength to
hold it straight, where your front wheel is easy to deflect.
* if they are turning into you, they have momentum you'll have to
overcome.
* the front edge of your front wheel is like a lever their rear wheel
is pushing.
* the rotation of the wheels is going to tend to lift your front
wheel, giving you even less traction. If your front skewer catches his
spokes, it can lift your front wheel off the pavement.
* there's very little time to do the right thing. As soon as his rear
wheel pushes your front wheel aside you are falling. I've seen it
happen, and been amazed at how fast the trailing rider went down, and
that the leading rider didn't even realize what had happened.

One thing you can do pro-actively is don't let a gap open in front of
you. Stay on someone's wheel. What I've seen happen is someone swings
into that gap to try and improve his position, not realizing your
wheels are going to touch. Also if some novice is swerving around in
the peloton, tell him to knock it off.
-Paul

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 28, 9:41*pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:

> Also if some novice is swerving around in
> the peloton, tell him to knock it off.

Or send him to the school of hard knocks and let him find out first
hand why swerving around isn't wise ;-)

Somebody swerving in from the side, I call gettting taken out, not
touching wheels. To me, touching wheels means when I through some
inattentiveness let my wheel contact the wheel already in front of me.
That need not result in a crash.


Joseph

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Wed, 28 May 2008 12:41:49 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
<carbide@egine.com> wrote:

>I'm just saying that their rear wheel can easily push your front
>wheel aside, but no matter how good you are, you can't simply push
>someone's rear wheel aside with your front wheel.

You're slightly shifting the discussion. The core issue is staying
up, not pushing the other rider's rear wheel away.

A number of people in this group have fought to prevent their wheel
being turned and stayed up. And/or seen it happen. It's very doable,
esp. with a little practice, willpower and perhaps a touch of luck.


>* there's very little time to do the right thing. As soon as his rear
>wheel pushes your front wheel aside you are falling.

Not necessarily. Usually, but not necessarily. Practive and willpower
can help reduce the likelihood.

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:04:01 -0700 (PDT),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>On May 28, 9:41*pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
>> Also if some novice is swerving around in
>> the peloton, tell him to knock it off.
>
>Or send him to the school of hard knocks and let him find out first
>hand why swerving around isn't wise ;-)

Or don't ride close behind him.

Paul G.

On May 28, 1:04 pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 28, 9:41 pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
> > Also if some novice is swerving around in
> > the peloton, tell him to knock it off.
>
> Or send him to the school of hard knocks and let him find out first
> hand why swerving around isn't wise ;-)
>
> Somebody swerving in from the side, I call gettting taken out, not
> touching wheels. To me, touching wheels means when I through some
> inattentiveness let my wheel contact the wheel already in front of me.
> That need not result in a crash.
>
> Joseph

OK. I can agree with that, and whoever said don't panic.
-Paul

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 28, 10:10*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:04:01 -0700 (PDT),
>
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 28, 9:41*pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
> >> *Also if some novice is swerving around in
> >> the peloton, tell him to knock it off.
>
> >Or send him to the school of hard knocks and let him find out first
> >hand why swerving around isn't wise ;-)
>
> Or don't ride close behind him. *

I was of course just kidding. Novices are usually open to constructive
criticism. It's much worse with more experienced riders who should
know better but for some reason are still wild swervers. Novices who
are unpredictable, I will let know in a friendly way that they should
clean up their style. Old hands who are unpredictable, I just avoid.
Easier said than done.

Joseph

SLAVE of THE STATE

On May 28, 2:50*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My undertutored theory is that most crashes result from over-controlling
> rather than under-controlling, and maybe not being quite as focused
> about keeping it upright (target fixation is fun!) as not-crashy riders
> are.

Dumbass,

I crashed once from "undercontrolling," or just being "too relaxed."
Not as contact with anyone, but by hitting an "invisible asphalt knot"
coming out of a corner.

I was almost out of the corner and started to stand to respond to a
gap that had been allowed to form (not by me). Right at that moment
"something" knocked the handlbars out of my hands, for which I had a
relaxed hold on. Of course, at that point I could not steer and went
into the opposite curb. It sort of hurt.

I had to go back over and look closely at the road to see the knotted
up section, as there was no crack and not much discoloration. I could
not explain the loss of control any other way. It was sort of like an
inverted crack would be if your front wheel hit it. I was not looking
down, but forward to the riders and the gap at the time of control
loss.

My dumbass lessons were:
1. wait till being all the way out of the corner before standing/
accelerating
2. if not waiting, keep a strong hold on the handlebars unless the
pavement is known to be very good. Or just keep a strong hold for
that sort of move in any case.

It sucked.

Paul G.

On May 28, 1:07 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 12:41:49 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
>
> <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> >I'm just saying that their rear wheel can easily push your front
> >wheel aside, but no matter how good you are, you can't simply push
> >someone's rear wheel aside with your front wheel.
>
> You're slightly shifting the discussion. The core issue is staying
> up, not pushing the other rider's rear wheel away.
>

Read your first post, way up there at the top:

"Don't let the wheel in front of you turn your front wheel. Usually
that means pushing back with your wheel, but being ready to stop doing
that the instant there is separation. "

Stop trying to bullshit me. There is a science to this. If you can
keep your front wheel under your center of gravity you can stay
upright. If someone's wheel barely touches yours, sure, you have a
chance to do that, but if they nudge your front wheel even an inch to
the side your bike will turn sharply and gravity will take over.

I'll be happy to demonstrate this at $100 per lesson. Or if you're so
confident that "it's very doable" I'll give you odds. How about 4 to
1? If you can stay upright 50% of the time, you can make some real
money.

-Paul

dustoyevsky@mac.com

On May 28, 3:52*pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:

> "Don't let the wheel in front of you turn your front wheel. *Usually
> that means pushing back with your wheel, but being ready to stop doing
> that the instant there is separation. "
>
> Stop trying to bullshit me. There is a science to this. If you can
> keep your front wheel under your center of gravity you can stay
> upright. If someone's wheel barely touches yours, sure, you have a
> chance to do that, but if they nudge your front wheel even an inch to
> the side your bike will turn sharply and gravity will take over.

You prevent your front wheel from turning, to keep your COG under you
and going the same way (approx.) the bike is going.

('nother story): I had a 100lb. female following me, traveling down a
road where there was traffic, and suddenly the shoulder ended, with a
dropoff-- some kind of deal where they were going to add a lane on the
RH side. Whoops, there we were. There was some traffic, with a turnoff
coming up. Nowhere else to go, so we hustled along to get off that
road. I thought I was over to the left plenty far, when we got hit
with a blasting sidewind which moved me over right, and right into
her. She knew what to do, and good thing, because I promise I moved
her over a lot more than an inch while I fought for control and moved
back over to the left. I was 180lbs plus bike, and she moved *me* over
back left after I moved her over to the right <g>, fighting to not get
crashed off the edge of the slab. I would have felt really bad and
really stupid if she'd gotten hurt, as I had some experience at least
by that point and she was a beginner.

We're back to the "fight for it" thing here, is the object. Hammer
hammer hammer. Beginners often don't have that concept. --D-y

Paul G.

On May 28, 1:10 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:04:01 -0700 (PDT),
>
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 28, 9:41 pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
> >> Also if some novice is swerving around in
> >> the peloton, tell him to knock it off.
>
> >Or send him to the school of hard knocks and let him find out first
> >hand why swerving around isn't wise ;-)
>
> Or don't ride close behind him.

I was thinking about a specific incident at the beginning of a
criterium. The guy hadn't affected me...yet. But he was ahead and to
my left. I was thinking if he took down someone ahead of me, there
could easily be a pileup that might include me. That's the only time I
can remember actually yelling at someone in a race. And he did knock
it off.
-Paul