Helmet saved my...

Pat

>
> I will save them the trouble with these possible replies, all in jest.
>
> "How do you know your helmet saved you serious injury? I had a crash just
> like that back in ought six. I came through it just fine and I wasn't
> wearing a helmet. Bah!"
>
> "Do you wear your helmet while driving your car (while walking, while
> making breakfast, while taking a shower)? Bah!"
>
> "Were you compensating for your helmet use by riding faster than you would
> have otherwise? Bah!"
>
> "Do you have any witnesses? Did anyone videotape your crash? How do we
> know it really happened? This whole enchilada is anecdotal. How do we
> know you didn't just make it all up? Bah!"
>
> "Are you trying to convince the unenlightened that riding a bike is so
> dangerous as to require headgear? Bah!"

That about covers it. Except for the one where they want you to go back and
do the accident again, this time without the helmet, so they will have
something with which to compare.

Pat in TX

Pat

> Then Mike said, "Well, your helmet sure did its job."

Increasing the diameter of your head, thus causing a little scrape on
the shell, so you could go all goo goo like a fanatic.

It's pretty darn rare to have anything short of a little laceration on
the side of your head in a slide out where your shoulder takes the
brunt on the impact. As you didn't feel anything, I doubt helmet made
a difference in this particular crash, except to your wallet.

Hey, howsabout you go out and duplicate his accident but without the helmet.
Then and only then will you be in a position to say anything about his
particular accident.

Bill Sornson

Pat wrote:
>> Then Mike said, "Well, your helmet sure did its job."
>
> Increasing the diameter of your head, thus causing a little scrape on
> the shell, so you could go all goo goo like a fanatic.

Why did you delete the link to pics showing that the helmet's foam core was
cracked in numerous places? (And BTW, there was more than just a "little
scrape" on the outer shell; it buckled from the impact.)

> It's pretty darn rare to have anything short of a little laceration on
> the side of your head in a slide out where your shoulder takes the
> brunt on the impact. As you didn't feel anything, I doubt helmet made
> a difference in this particular crash, except to your wallet.

It was a $20 helmet (brand new). It's clear that when I landed hard on my
right shoulder, my head BOUNCED on the pavement. (And yes, my neck and
upper chest are very sore today, similar to a bad car accident.) If you
want to assert that it made no difference, then I want to assert that you're
either just flat wrong or -- more likely probably -- trolling.

> Hey, howsabout you go out and duplicate his accident but without the
> helmet. Then and only then will you be in a position to say anything
> about his particular accident.

You first.

BS

Mike Jacoubowsky

> That about covers it. Except for the one where they want you to go back
> and do the accident again, this time without the helmet, so they will have
> something with which to compare.
>
> Pat in TX

I don't understand why people have trouble with that request. Seems like the
only way to really validate each claim to me.

I just had an idea. Why not have the Mythbusters folk test bicycle helmets?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Pat" <extex@tmail.com> wrote in message
news:6abb3hF3717vuU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>>
>> I will save them the trouble with these possible replies, all in jest.
>>
>> "How do you know your helmet saved you serious injury? I had a crash
>> just like that back in ought six. I came through it just fine and I
>> wasn't wearing a helmet. Bah!"
>>
>> "Do you wear your helmet while driving your car (while walking, while
>> making breakfast, while taking a shower)? Bah!"
>>
>> "Were you compensating for your helmet use by riding faster than you
>> would have otherwise? Bah!"
>>
>> "Do you have any witnesses? Did anyone videotape your crash? How do we
>> know it really happened? This whole enchilada is anecdotal. How do we
>> know you didn't just make it all up? Bah!"
>>
>> "Are you trying to convince the unenlightened that riding a bike is so
>> dangerous as to require headgear? Bah!"
>
> That about covers it. Except for the one where they want you to go back
> and do the accident again, this time without the helmet, so they will have
> something with which to compare.
>
> Pat in TX
>

Frank Krygowski

On May 30, 1:45 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> ...noggin!
>
> Flying down a steep, curvy road today, my front tire blew out just as I came
> around a turn. (4" of bead separated from the casing; fairly new Michelin
> Pro Race 2; no recent flats so not a "tube installation" issue.)
>
> I briefly thought I could save it, but as I headed down and left into the
> oncoming lane a car was headed right in my path so I had no choice but to
> try to steer the bike to the right. BLAM -- down I went on my right side at
> close to 40 mph.
>
> Immediate injury noticed was to my right shoulder. Probable torn ligaments
> if not rotator cuff (ripped previously so familiar with the pain). Road
> rash was surprisingly slight (knee, elbow, hip and shoulder -- the latter
> two protected a bit by Spandex so not visible until later).
>
> Another rider, Mike, came along and helped me. Started to fix my flat when
> he saw the trashed tire bead. (No pics yet.) Called my friend Miles (of
> world famous "Miles Todd crash video" fame) to pick me up.
>
> Then Mike said, "Well, your helmet sure did its job." I touched the outside
> shell and felt a scrape, but had no idea that I'd even hit my head, much
> less cracked the crap out of it:
>
> http://home.san.rr.com:80/billsornson/(server wouldn't allow more than
> these three pics).
>
> So now it's 8-9 hours later and other than a really messed up shoulder I
> feel pretty decent. Sure my neck is going to be sore as hell tomorrow, and
> may end up needing surgery on the wing (time will tell), but no concussion,
> cracked skull, or hood ornament/undercarriage action, so all in all I'm
> feeling pretty fortunate. I just wish it had been my own error instead of
> an obvious product defect (and why couldn't it have been the REAR
> tire?!?)...
>
> Beaten Up But Not Beat (Yet) Bill

:-) Wonderful!

You touched your helmet to the ground so gently that you weren't even
aware you had done it.

Your fragile foam cap apparently did not crush (the mechanism by which
they are purported to "save you") but instead failed by cracking,
apparently due to tensile stresses tangential to the shell. IOW, it
failed in a non-protective way.

And you assume this is a sign from the helmet gods that you must
quickly do missionary work? Your gullibility rating is off the chart!

If you really want to get heavily into missionary work, Bill, do
this: Wear a helmet that's even bigger. Try for one about 20 inches
in diameter.

But make it even more fragile than the current offerings. Make it
just a network of paper-thin webs of styrofoam connecting a few
hundred large holes. (You can say it's "super-ventilated.") Then
ride in it, walk in it, hike in it, play golf in it...

I'm sure you'll soon accumulate many satisfying cracks and dents.
Hell, it will probably "save your noggin" dozens of times a day.
That should be enough to convince even more heathens that they need
salvation from helmetlessness!

If they're gullible enough, that is.

- Frank Krygowski

Ozark Bicycle

On May 30, 6:30 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 30, 1:45 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>
>
>
> > ...noggin!
>
> > Flying down a steep, curvy road today, my front tire blew out just as I came
> > around a turn. (4" of bead separated from the casing; fairly new Michelin
> > Pro Race 2; no recent flats so not a "tube installation" issue.)
>
> > I briefly thought I could save it, but as I headed down and left into the
> > oncoming lane a car was headed right in my path so I had no choice but to
> > try to steer the bike to the right. BLAM -- down I went on my right side at
> > close to 40 mph.
>
> > Immediate injury noticed was to my right shoulder. Probable torn ligaments
> > if not rotator cuff (ripped previously so familiar with the pain). Road
> > rash was surprisingly slight (knee, elbow, hip and shoulder -- the latter
> > two protected a bit by Spandex so not visible until later).
>
> > Another rider, Mike, came along and helped me. Started to fix my flat when
> > he saw the trashed tire bead. (No pics yet.) Called my friend Miles (of
> > world famous "Miles Todd crash video" fame) to pick me up.
>
> > Then Mike said, "Well, your helmet sure did its job." I touched the outside
> > shell and felt a scrape, but had no idea that I'd even hit my head, much
> > less cracked the crap out of it:
>
> >http://home.san.rr.com:80/billsornson/(serverwouldn't allow more than
> > these three pics).
>
> > So now it's 8-9 hours later and other than a really messed up shoulder I
> > feel pretty decent. Sure my neck is going to be sore as hell tomorrow, and
> > may end up needing surgery on the wing (time will tell), but no concussion,
> > cracked skull, or hood ornament/undercarriage action, so all in all I'm
> > feeling pretty fortunate. I just wish it had been my own error instead of
> > an obvious product defect (and why couldn't it have been the REAR
> > tire?!?)...
>
> > Beaten Up But Not Beat (Yet) Bill
>
> :-) Wonderful!
>
> You touched your helmet to the ground so gently that you weren't even
> aware you had done it.
>
> Your fragile foam cap apparently did not crush (the mechanism by which
> they are purported to "save you") but instead failed by cracking,
> apparently due to tensile stresses tangential to the shell. IOW, it
> failed in a non-protective way.
>
> And you assume this is a sign from the helmet gods that you must
> quickly do missionary work? Your gullibility rating is off the chart!
>
> If you really want to get heavily into missionary work, Bill, do
> this: Wear a helmet that's even bigger. Try for one about 20 inches
> in diameter.
>
> But make it even more fragile than the current offerings. Make it
> just a network of paper-thin webs of styrofoam connecting a few
> hundred large holes. (You can say it's "super-ventilated.") Then
> ride in it, walk in it, hike in it, play golf in it...
>
> I'm sure you'll soon accumulate many satisfying cracks and dents.
> Hell, it will probably "save your noggin" dozens of times a day.
> That should be enough to convince even more heathens that they need
> salvation from helmetlessness!
>
> If they're gullible enough, that is.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

In March of this year, a poster in another NG (rec.autos.driving,
IIRC), characterized you as "a bored, retired guy who likes to jerkoff
on the internet". I found that so unerringly accurate that I smiled
even as I wiped the coffee off my monitor screen. ;-)

Pat

"Frank Krygowski" --why don't you and landotter start your own newsgroup?
You're isolated here as stubborn cases who refuse to believe anybody's
testimony or eyewitness accounts. In my own riding club, practically
everyone has either had an accident or witnessed someone's accident.
Evidently, you haven't had an accident. That's great, but don't keep
denigrating people who have first hand experience. Frankly, I wonder if you
would even have the guts to post anything after an accident, such as, "I
sure wish I had a helmet that day." Nah, that would be too much to ask
for....

Bill Sornson

Pat wrote:

LEARN HOW TO QUOTE. I SEE NOW THAT SOME OF WHAT YOU "WROTE" WAS REALLY FROM
THE PATHOLOGICAL LIAR GROUND RAT.

Bill Sornson

Pat wrote:
> "Frank Krygowski" --why don't you and landotter start your own
> newsgroup? You're isolated here as stubborn cases who refuse to
> believe anybody's testimony or eyewitness accounts. In my own riding
> club, practically everyone has either had an accident or witnessed
> someone's accident. Evidently, you haven't had an accident. That's
> great, but don't keep denigrating people who have first hand
> experience. Frankly, I wonder if you would even have the guts to
> post anything after an accident, such as, "I sure wish I had a helmet
> that day." Nah, that would be too much to ask for....

Pat, I apologize for the post I just made (above a bit). You didn't quote
anyone so it looked like you were attacking me, when in fact you were merely
replying to known assholes like Crank 'n GroundRat.

I thought it was odd that you'd take that side, but since I plonked those
two dickwads long ago I had no way of knowing that wasn't your text.

Sorry.

Bill

Bill Sornson

Pat wrote:

Pat, please try to quote (and attribute) stuff. It really looks like you
wrote stuff that you didn't.

> You've proven time and time again that you simply make shit up without
> evidence. You scratched your helmet. So? Perhaps you saved yourself a
> band aid or not--but the popular thing to do these days is to scream
> hallelujah--it saved my life! {rest snipped}

Please point to me ever saying that, much less in this thread.

Whoever you are. (I smell a...RAT tho'.)

Frank Krygowski

On May 31, 8:53 am, "Pat" <ex...@tmail.com> wrote:
> "Frank Krygowski" --why don't you and landotter start your own newsgroup?
> You're isolated here as stubborn cases who refuse to believe anybody's
> testimony or eyewitness accounts.

Pat, some extremely intelligent helmet skeptics have told me they've
given up trying to convince the innumerate helmeteers by using logic.
They've complimented me for having far more patience than they do.
That's the prime reason that helmet worshippers have the majority in
this particular thread.

Now, let's discuss the facts, shall we?

> In my own riding club, practically
> everyone has either had an accident or witnessed someone's accident.

OK, if you say so. I don't believe that's true in my club, unless you
define "accident" and "witness" very, very loosely. I've been very
active in a large club for over 25 years. (President, multiple other
offices, etc.) I've seen less than ten on-road crashes, none of which
caused significant injury. YMMV.

But what does your sentence really mean? That riding is so dangerous
that head protection is absolutely necessary? Please be specific.

> Evidently, you haven't had an accident.

I've had one moving on-road fall since I began riding as an
enthusiastic adult, and that was at about 3 mph.

> That's great, but don't keep denigrating people who have first hand experience.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If someone crashes into an
opening car door, and I say "You shouldn't have ridden within reach of
a car door," is that denigrating? I think it's simply good advice.

But this thread was started by someone who isn't intelligent enough to
grasp Usenet's thread structure; and who says "I didn't even realize I
hit my head, but my fragile helmet failed anyway, therefore my helmet
saved my noggin!"

That's absolute nonsense on the face if it! Unless, that is, you
dispute the fact that his helmet sticks out further than his head, and
that such a gentle touch on a helmet would have to have missed his
head.

> Frankly, I wonder if you
> would even have the guts to post anything after an accident, such as, "I
> sure wish I had a helmet that day." Nah, that would be too much to ask
> for....

Assuming, of course, that I would ever have a crash where a helmet
would make a difference. Given my many decades of riding bikes in all
sorts of conditions, and given my research into actual bike crash
statistics, I know such a crash is extremely unlikely.

Which is, of course, the dispute that's the foundation of most helmet
disagreements. You've become convinced that simply riding a bike is
as dangerous as driving a race car, playing pro football, doing
whitewater kayaking, doing extreme rock climbing, and other activities
for which helmets are common.

Meanwhile, I think that's a scam generated by helmet-funded
advertising and lobbying.

And I've got the data, while you don't.

Now, do you wish to discuss facts and data?

- Frank Krygowski

DC1999

On May 29, 10:45 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> ...noggin!
>
> Flying down a steep, curvy road today, my front tire blew out just as I came
> around a turn. (4" of bead separated from the casing; fairly new Michelin
> Pro Race 2; no recent flats so not a "tube installation" issue.)
>
> I briefly thought I could save it, but as I headed down and left into the
> oncoming lane a car was headed right in my path so I had no choice but to
> try to steer the bike to the right. BLAM -- down I went on my right side at
> close to 40 mph.
>
> Immediate injury noticed was to my right shoulder. Probable torn ligaments
> if not rotator cuff (ripped previously so familiar with the pain). Road
> rash was surprisingly slight (knee, elbow, hip and shoulder -- the latter
> two protected a bit by Spandex so not visible until later).
>
> Another rider, Mike, came along and helped me. Started to fix my flat when
> he saw the trashed tire bead. (No pics yet.) Called my friend Miles (of
> world famous "Miles Todd crash video" fame) to pick me up.
>
> Then Mike said, "Well, your helmet sure did its job." I touched the outside
> shell and felt a scrape, but had no idea that I'd even hit my head, much
> less cracked the crap out of it:
>
> http://home.san.rr.com:80/billsornson/(server wouldn't allow more than
> these three pics).
>
> So now it's 8-9 hours later and other than a really messed up shoulder I
> feel pretty decent. Sure my neck is going to be sore as hell tomorrow, and
> may end up needing surgery on the wing (time will tell), but no concussion,
> cracked skull, or hood ornament/undercarriage action, so all in all I'm
> feeling pretty fortunate. I just wish it had been my own error instead of
> an obvious product defect (and why couldn't it have been the REAR
> tire?!?)...
>
> Beaten Up But Not Beat (Yet) Bill

Glad to hear your episode had a decent (if not "happy") ending. So
did mine. Down hard as a result of a railroad track in the street in
San Francisco, and my helmet had a one inch crack all the way
through.

Now the replacement helmet is four years old and I'm wondering if it's
time to get another new one. It's never been dropped or beaten up,
except from the sun and my sweaty head.

What do you'all think?

Dave
dc1999 at gmail dot com

Frank Krygowski

On May 31, 1:06 pm, DC1999 <dc1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [My] helmet is four years old and I'm wondering if it's
> time to get another new one. It's never been dropped or beaten up,
> except from the sun and my sweaty head.
>
> What do you'all think?

For a while, Bell Sports (and other manufacturers) recommended
replacing helmets every three years "for your safety" or some such
phrasing.

Then their lawyers apparently realized the problems with that. So
they switched to recommending replacing your helmet every three years
"so you can take advantage of new features and styles," or something
like that. Now they simply seem to say "replace it every three years;
call us if you have questions."

Frankly, other manufacturers should get in on this. For example, Snap-
On Tools should start saying "Replace your ball pein hammer every
three years, to keep up with our hammer fashions!"

Meanwhile, I've never seen any test evidence that helmets degrade with
time. One major helmet promotion website tested a very old helmet and
found it passed the test standards just fine.

Styrofoam is quite inert, unless it's attacked by solvents or their
fumes. Styrofoam in constant sunlight (like thin styrofoam cup
litter, seeing 4000 hr/year) takes years to degrade. And your helmet
is out in sunlight only a few hundred hours each year.

Remember, your helmet is tested and certified to protect only against
direct (not glancing or rotational) impacts of about 14 mph. If you
leave it out in direct sunlight for ten years straight, its protection
may be reduced to 13.9 years.

But it will be _so_ unfashionable by then!

- Frank Krygowski

landotter

On May 31, 12:06*pm, DC1999 <dc1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 29, 10:45 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>
>
>
> > ...noggin!
>
> > Flying down a steep, curvy road today, my front tire blew out just as I came
> > around a turn. *(4" of bead separated from the casing; fairly new Michelin
> > Pro Race 2; no recent flats so not a "tube installation" issue.)
>
> > I briefly thought I could save it, but as I headed down and left into the
> > oncoming lane a car was headed right in my path so I had no choice but to
> > try to steer the bike to the right. *BLAM -- down I went on my right side at
> > close to 40 mph.
>
> > Immediate injury noticed was to my right shoulder. *Probable torn ligaments
> > if not rotator cuff (ripped previously so familiar with the pain). *Road
> > rash was surprisingly slight (knee, elbow, hip and shoulder -- the latter
> > two protected a bit by Spandex so not visible until later).
>
> > Another rider, Mike, came along and helped me. *Started to fix my flatwhen
> > he saw the trashed tire bead. *(No pics yet.) *Called my friend Miles (of
> > world famous "Miles Todd crash video" fame) to pick me up.
>
> > Then Mike said, "Well, your helmet sure did its job." *I touched the outside
> > shell and felt a scrape, but had no idea that I'd even hit my head, much
> > less cracked the crap out of it:
>
> >http://home.san.rr.com:80/billsornson/(serverwouldn't allow more than
> > these three pics).
>
> > So now it's 8-9 hours later and other than a really messed up shoulder I
> > feel pretty decent. *Sure my neck is going to be sore as hell tomorrow, and
> > may end up needing surgery on the wing (time will tell), but no concussion,
> > cracked skull, or hood ornament/undercarriage action, so all in all I'm
> > feeling pretty fortunate. *I just wish it had been my own error instead of
> > an obvious product defect (and why couldn't it have been the REAR
> > tire?!?)...
>
> > Beaten Up But Not Beat (Yet) Bill
>
> Glad to hear your episode had a decent (if not "happy") ending. *So
> did mine. *Down hard as a result of a railroad track in the street in
> San Francisco, and my helmet had a one inch crack all the way
> through.
>
> Now the replacement helmet is four years old and I'm wondering if it's
> time to get another new one. *It's never been dropped or beaten up,
> except from the sun and my sweaty head.
>
> What do you'all think?

I learned my lesson about rail tracks in '89, gave me a greasy leg...

http://tinyurl.com/5zso4l

http://tinyurl.com/5zso4l