ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF

Bob Schwartz

2bowlers@gmail.com wrote:
> You guys seem to be arguing from a basis of "fairness" and "what is
> right". None of those trite concepts is in play. This is politics and
> power with the doping issue being dramatized and used merely as a
> lever to accomplish other objectives.

Exactly so, well put.

> Already the race has lost something for me and my fandom. Yeah, I'll
> still watch the TV coverage at night after my training ride but I
> won't be glued to the internet waiting for minute by minute updates
> this year to find out whose wheel Cadel sucked to the top of each
> mountain top finish.

Do people remember when Cipo was World Champion and the Tour
told him to shove off. Much like Astana, Cipo had earned that.
IIRC there were stages of that year's Giro where he was
leading one of the secondary jersey competitions and wore his
WC jersey rather than the one the race sponsors had paid to
have someone wear. So in addition to repeatedly being a pain
in the ass to the Tour organizers over the years he was
showing that he was willing to dump on a race sponsor also.

So the Tour told him to shove off. And the Tour never missed
him. Just as the Tour will not miss Astana.

Bob Schwartz

Michael Press

In article
<6f62c94a-54f8-4b17-8bab-0fc1eb276adf@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Jun 6, 8:42*pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> >
> > news:52161a0d-c3c7-4669-8423-18aadad43770@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 5, 11:57 am, hizark21 <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> > > > 07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
> > > > they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the
> >
> > > They have. They told them "Prove it by staying clean for a year."
> >
> > Think about that statement Bill. Firstly the team has very little control
> > over what riders do and since riders become millionaires if they succeed
> > they can afford to hire the best and to take chances. The past problems were
> > the lower tier riders were using lower tier doctors who didn't know how to
> > design the doping regime to clear the testings.
> >
> > Now the testing protocols are getting so sensitive that most doping won't
> > work. That won't stop doping of course but it can limit it which is the best
> > we can hope to do.
>
> I'm not willing to give the teams a free pass. There's way too much
> evidence that they've known what was going on, or organized it, for
> way too many of them.
> Now we are back to the quality of the dopingbusts/testing. I was
> going to say that the teams need to be allowed/encouraged to recover
> money for the damage done, from the rider, for when a rider gets
> busted, but with the way Wada, and the UCI hacve conducted themselves
> in the past this is a problem too. When the folks running the system
> are at least as questionable as the criminals, or supposed criminals,
> what the hell do you do.
> In a perfect world they'd dump most of the leadership, clean up the
> system, open up the system, and start over, but that ain't gonna
> happen anytime soon.
> In a lot of ways this is like the NBA defending Tim Donaghy, before
> he started talking his head off. They said "there's NO way he could
> have affected any games because we review all the ref's performances,
> in every game, and he's one of our very best!". Well, he says he was
> dirty, and so are others, but noone is allowed to see what the system
> is, or how it works, and anyone questioning the mighty leadership/
> system is given draconian penalties.
> They're dirty as shit, but rather than clean the mess up, and give up
> power, they'll kill the game, and take as many people down as possible
> before going.
> When everyone is shoveling shit around you, you're gonna stink too,
> and that's unfortunate for those who are clean.

What we have here is the Stockholm syndrome. Some agents
come in and take the sport hostage by promising to clean
it up. Now everybody has a clear cut choice. Cooperate
or be condemned as dirty. Like Pol Pot's system of rule.
Armed bands patrol the countryside. You are a villager.
Armed band shows up and starts shooting people. You do
not get shot. They hand you a gun and tell you to shoot
this person. You shoot that person or you get shot. Just
because a hostage falls in with his captors does not mean
he did not live his life dominating and running rough
shod over other people. At least the fans of the sport
have a choice to ignore doping as a moral choice and
devote that attention to the racing; but many fall in
with the captors anyway.

--
Michael Press

teaser4ever@gmail.com

On Jun 7, 12:39*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:32:49 -0700 (PDT), teaser4e...@gmail.com wrote:
> >When Flandy signed phonak I made a bet with my brother
> >he would be caught. I was right.
>
> What's the next team to have a major drugs scandal?

Clairvoyance is a nice skill to have for superbowl winning^^

Phonak was pretty easy considering almost all their main contenders
had been caught in the preceding years (Camenzind, Botero, Perez,
Hamilton). So it wasn't a complete stretch to fear Flandis was in
shady territory.

But I will try my hand at a Lafferism:

Teams wich are smelly:

Q-Step (Persistent rumors, Boonens own roundabout admittance)
Rabobank (Dekker went to the same doc as among others Hamilton,
further more a slightly checkered past with E. Dekker and Rasmussen)
Cofidis (too many returning cases)
Caise D'Espagne (Near misses with Valverde and Perreiro)
Astana (see their history)

I'm not a rabid witch hunter, but if teams aren't even having the
grace to be remotely embarrased about it (Ungoing cases, year in, year
out) I would like to see them brought down. Suspending riders is
easy... but the management and (medical?) staff of those teams needs
to be banned.

teaser4ever@gmail.com

On Jun 7, 2:42*am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:52161a0d-c3c7-4669-8423-18aadad43770@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 11:57 am, hizark21 <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> > > 07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
> > > they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the
>
> > They have. They told them "Prove it by staying clean for a year."
>
> Think about that statement Bill. Firstly the team has very little control
> over what riders do and since riders become millionaires if they succeed
> they can afford to hire the best and to take chances. The past problems were
> the lower tier riders were using lower tier doctors who didn't know how to
> design the doping regime to clear the testings.
>
> Now the testing protocols are getting so sensitive that most doping won't
> work. That won't stop doping of course but it can limit it which is the best
> we can hope to do.

You dismiss out of hand the micro-dosing riders admit to use and wich
is pretty much undetectable. Also, the notion that teams, who monitor
their riders progress and live on their lips with them many days a
year, fail to see the signs is quite honestly a big stretch. Ungoing
rumors about teams pooling pricemoney/riders contributions to finance
their "medical" investments also makes the line " the team really
didn't know about Johny" on shaky grounds.

Morten Reippuert Knudsen

On 2008-06-05 00:14:26 +0200, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> said:

>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> The randomized controls found Rasmussen didn't
>>> they?
>>
>> No.
>
> My bad, I know that. Rasmussen was kicked out due to his phony whereabouts.
> Doh.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

No.

His team was bullied to withdraw him (If Rabobank had not complied they
would not have been racing TDF or any ASO event in 2008)

The reason for ASO to wan't Rasmussen out of the race has to do with
the war against UCI and the protour concept. The Rasmussen was just a
casualty of war.

Rasmussen had: two warnings from UCI
two warnings from DCU (Danish cycling federation)

The UCI rules clearly states that there is a case if you have /3/
warnings from the same agency. ASO didn't like those rules beacuse it
was UCi rules and not ASO rules. Neither did ASO care that the warnings
where not issued on seperate incidents. There where only two incidents.

The first one from UCI was issued because Rasumussen wasn't where he
told the UCI/DCU he would be when they showed up: Instedead of
training he was racining in a UCI event. Rasmussen notified UCI of the
missing cross reference in UCI's database and assumed that the warning
was erased. It warning was not withdrawn because rasmusssens complaint
did not follow the correct procedure.

The second one was issued by DCU

The third one was issued by UCI

The fourth one was given by DCU for the same infringement as number 3
issued by UCI. When Rasmussen recived the fourth warning he was no
longer a member of the danish national team and because Rasmussen had
his license in Monaco and not in Denmark the DCU where no longer
authorised to issue a the fourth warning.

Knowladge about Rasmussens whereabouts did'nt surface until the autum
of 2007. Durring the TDF there where no evidence witch could force
Rabobank to withdraw Rasmussen or allow ASO to kick him out.

The where a lot of riders in 2007 TDF with warnings. The numbers i have
heard mentioned in the same danish TV which dug up the Mexico story
durring the TDF is +30 riders with warnings. Thore Hushovd was among
those riders - ASO did not wan't him out...

--
mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen

"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
or two in a month, what's the point of living?"

Morten Reippuert Knudsen

On 2008-06-05 17:57:58 +0200, hizark21 <hizark21@yahoo.com> said:

> Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> 07's riders.

The problem is that the new management and top riders are just as
staind as the old ones
--
mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen

"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
or two in a month, what's the point of living?"

ilanpsi@gmail.com

On Jun 4, 7:56*am, hizark21 <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF (http://www.cyclingnews.com/
> news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun04news ).
>
> It's simply ridiculous that the ASO is refusing to let Astana enter
> the TDF. *The ASO should have put forth a set of condtions for Astana
> to meet if they wished to enter the TDF. Astana is the dominant spring
> team now and they deserve to ride in the TDF.

I just got the latest Velo magazine, which I assume is owned by ASO.
Despite its publication following the conclusion of the Giro, only a
single minor mention of Contador. Basically, he doesn't exist, as far
as ASO is concerned.

-ilan

Tom Kunich

<teaser4ever@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bac8c961-9b09-41f4-92fb-43598eb5efd2@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> You dismiss out of hand the micro-dosing riders admit to use and wich
> is pretty much undetectable.

And also pretty ineffective. Look, people have been quoting medical tests
before showing no physical results from using these drugs to which the
critics proclaim, "But they weren't using the huge doses that athletes use."
Now you're insinuating that the smaller doses work.

> Also, the notion that teams, who monitor
> their riders progress and live on their lips with them many days a
> year, fail to see the signs is quite honestly a big stretch.

Signs of WHAT?

Tom Kunich

<ilanpsi@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7611b2e7-101a-40d4-a3f0-f502de737bca@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> I just got the latest Velo magazine, which I assume is owned by ASO.
> Despite its publication following the conclusion of the Giro, only a
> single minor mention of Contador. Basically, he doesn't exist, as far
> as ASO is concerned.

We're seeing a rather odd time in the sport right now Ilan. I've decided not
to follow the Tour this year and concentrate on the Giro and Vuelta which
has real racing.

ASO are having a serious problem with their idea that they control the
sport.

jean-yves hervé

In article <l7jth5-3ve.ln1@nas.reippuert.dk>,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen <spam@reippuert.dk> wrote:

> On 2008-06-05 17:57:58 +0200, hizark21 <hizark21@yahoo.com> said:
>
> > Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> > 07's riders.
>
> The problem is that the new management and top riders are just as
> staind as the old ones

But if they had hired Michael "pure as snow" Rasmussen they'd be OK,
right?

jyh.

hizark21

On Jun 5, 6:56*pm, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVE.global.net>
wrote:
> hizark21 wrote:
> > Actually Bruyneel has the option of keeping the riders he wanted.
>
> > Bob Schwartz wrote:
> >> hizark21 wrote:
> >>> Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> >>> 07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
> >>> they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the
> >>> TDF.
> >> Of the 30 riders on their roster, 17 were there last year.
> >> Most of last year's riders are still there. Which is to be
> >> expected I suppose, since most if not all of the holdovers
> >> would have multi-year contracts.
>
> >> Bob Schwartz
>
> Very well. Then the team is mostly the same as last year,
> adding a few select riders such as Levi (Ferrari) Leipheimer
> and Alberto (Puerto) Contador.
>
> So why are you making the case that Astana hasn't earned this
> by pissing in the soup more than once?
>
> Aren't you the guy that wants the death penalty for first
> time dopers? ASO is taking a hard line. You should be cheering
> this.
>

Name one rider on currently riding for Astana that has been found
tested positive...?
> Bob Schwartz

hizark21

On Jun 7, 5:13*am, 2bowl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 7, 3:43*am, hizark21 <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > If ASO decides to become a private series of races
> > then they need to come up with a uniform standard method for allowing
> > teams or excluding them. ASO also needs to publish their procedures
> > for choosing teams as well.
>
> I suggest you have it the wrong way around. If the TdF moves
> completely outside the bounds of world cycling governance then they
> can, and will, invite whomever they please whenever they please.
>
I agree that the ASO has the right to conduct a private race. But I
also agree with the UCI that French cycling federation should not be
involved if they choose to do so.


> Apparently that is already reality since 2/3s of last years podium is
> being left out of the 2008 race. Unless people stop watching the TdF,
> or teams fail to queue up like lemmings for their invites, there will
> be no problems for ASO and no reason for ASO leadership to change
> their behavior.
>
> You guys seem to be arguing from a basis of "fairness" and "what is
> right". None of those trite concepts is in play. This is politics and
> power with the doping issue being dramatized and used merely as a
> lever to accomplish other objectives.
>
> Already the race has lost something for me and my fandom. Yeah, I'll
> still watch the TV coverage at night after my training ride but I
> won't be glued to the internet waiting for minute by minute updates
> this year to find out whose wheel Cadel sucked to the top of each
> mountain top finish.
>
> TIOOYK
>
> Mark

Morten Reippuert Knudsen

On 2008-06-09 04:00:32 +0200, jean-yves hervé <jyh@cs.uri.edu> said:

> But if they had hired Michael "pure as snow" Rasmussen they'd be OK,

No.

--
mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen

"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
or two in a month, what's the point of living?"

teaser4ever@gmail.com

On Jun 9, 2:50*am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> <teaser4e...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:bac8c961-9b09-41f4-92fb-43598eb5efd2@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > You dismiss out of hand the micro-dosing riders admit to use and wich
> > is pretty much undetectable.
>
> And also pretty ineffective. Look, people have been quoting medical tests
> before showing no physical results from using these drugs to which the
> critics proclaim, "But they weren't using the huge doses that athletes use.."
> Now you're insinuating that the smaller doses work.
>


On the non-effectiveness I will say this: The so-called wonder
doctors, the quacks who use these ineffective methods seem to have
gotten decent results. All a coincidence.

> > Also, the notion that teams, who monitor
> > their riders progress and live on their lips with them many days a
> > year, fail to see the signs is quite honestly a big stretch.
>
> Signs of WHAT?

Oh, I don't know? Rock steady HCT levels? Sudden jumps in blood
values? Testosterone levels wich are fluctuating wildly?

Tom, if you were a DS of a multi-million dollar team, would you try to
be up to snuff about your riders blood value? If not for health/form,
but also for the risk of getting a dope scandal? If you answer yes to
that one, is it far-fetched that actual DS'es also want to know this
and thus test their riders regularly? Now if you answer YES to those
questions, isnt it odd that in the vast majority of cases the team
says:

"Uhhhh we are very disapointed and surprised in rider X"