Hydration question

andresmuro@aol.com

On Jun 17, 7:43 am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:6640d683-3839-452e-9c57-6db48d86a75e@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> I agree, but I don't think size play as big a role as individual
> >> variation. I too aim for about 20floz per hour in similar temps, yet
> >> I'm 50-60lbs more (than you, not OP). I like having one bottle of
> >> water and one of some sort of sports/electrolyte type drink. The water
> >> to wash food down and rinse the palette, the sports drink for calories
> >> and salts.
>
> > A guy told me that you can train yourself to ride with minimal fluids
> > and food intake. I tried it and it's true. I can do 50 miles on one
> > bottle of water and stopping for a coffee and donut. You do have to
> > remember that you require SOMETHING and you can't do it with nothing at
> > all.
>
> I rode a 200k brevet (~200 mi) without eating -- not intentionally, my
> stomach just went south. I never carry fluids for typical 2 hr/30-40 mi
> club "fitness" rides, nor MTB rides of the same duration. I get a lot of
> reactions to the effect of assuming I must have lost/forgot my
> bottle(s), and many well intentioned offers to share. I guess I just
> like the feeling of being slightly dehydrated. People these days seem to
> think it's life threatening.
>
> On long rides (brevets), particularly in the heat, I do try to keep up
> with fluids. Despite that effort, I usually lose around 10 lb over the
> event. I prefer to drink at stops, every hour or two than continuously
> on the bike. I haven't consumed "sports drinks" in a decade or so, they
> just make me gag. I only carry water on the bike, bad enough being
> covered in dried salt & snot without adding a sticky sugar glaze.

As I say before, it is not difficult to ride two hours without water
on a cool day. I often run with no water for 1 1/2 hour in the
mountains and do fine in cooler days. However, the problem is riding
in hot days or humid days when you are sweating a lot. Last Sunday we
did a a four hour ride. It was around 80 when we started and over 100
when we finished. We finished on a four mile hill climb under the
dessert sun. I was carrying three full 24 ounce bottles and some were
carrying five. We stopped to refuel twice. I drank two whole bottles
during the climb alone and was still peeing yellow when I got home.

The same goes for refueling. You can ride on glycogen and fat stores
for a couple of hours fine if you stay aerobic with only a few
anaerobic or AT efforts. However, if you are riding for a lot more
more than two hours and the ride includes several AT efforts and
anaerobic efforts, you will bonk without refueling.

Granted that some may be in better shape and will stay aerobic while
others are going anaerobic. So, people in better shape will need less
fuel and water for the same ride than people in not so good shape.

Ultimately, the personal stories provide for good anecdotes, but don't
necessarily contribute to the knowledge base if we don't know the
efforts put out by the participants.

Ideally, if a person will ride for several hours hard (perceived
exertion) They should be drinking a bottle of water per hour and
consuming a minimum of 25-30 carbs per hour. The stories of those that
ride 5 hours on one water bottle with no fuel are fine. However, they
don't contribute anything if we dont' know what effort your body did
to accomplish the task. If it is hot and you are raising your heart
rate above 70% you won't survive for more than two.

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:42:20 -0700 (PDT), "andresmuro@aol.com"
<andresmuro@aol.com> wrote:

>As I say before, it is not difficult to ride two hours without water
>on a cool day. I often run with no water for 1 1/2 hour in the
>mountains and do fine in cooler days. However, the problem is riding
>in hot days or humid days when you are sweating a lot.

Yeah. The other thing is, even if you generally ride cool temp rides
that are not too long, if you are thinking of doing longer, hotter
rides its important to get yourself used to drinking more. If you
care about improving performance (which might not be the case for
everyone) or even comfort on long hot rides, you've got to be able to
drink a lot. Practice can help.

Ditto for getting calories into the body. Practice on your typical
rides and you'll be better prepared for longer/hotter rides.

Woland99

On Jun 15, 8:10 am, "D'ohBoy" <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My bottles have been cleaned with bleach recently.

Bleach? You are a brave man. I simply use hot water and
scrub them. Altho I recently bought a 3 liter CamelBak
after I got badly dehydrated in 100F weather in Austin.
Do not want to repeat that experience and 3 liters should
cover 3 hours even in mid-day heat and I rarely ride more
than that (unless on organized rides). I was using Hammer
Heed mix but now I switched to Nuun - all that sugar in
Heed was giving me bloated stomach and Nuun tastes way
better than Heed.
Anyways - any possibility that you poisoned yourself
with bleach?

Michael Press

In article
<2d0486ae-2dc1-4c80-91fd-4689ed14e24c@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Woland99 <woland99@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 15, 8:10 am, "D'ohBoy" <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > My bottles have been cleaned with bleach recently.
>
> Bleach? You are a brave man. I simply use hot water and
> scrub them. Altho I recently bought a 3 liter CamelBak
> after I got badly dehydrated in 100F weather in Austin.
> Do not want to repeat that experience and 3 liters should
> cover 3 hours even in mid-day heat and I rarely ride more
> than that (unless on organized rides). I was using Hammer
> Heed mix but now I switched to Nuun - all that sugar in
> Heed was giving me bloated stomach and Nuun tastes way
> better than Heed.
> Anyways - any possibility that you poisoned yourself
> with bleach?

No, unless he chugged it straight out of the bottle.
The stuff salts out, leaving no toxic substances behind.
It is ClO buffered in brine. Starts degrading as soon
as it is diluted and turns into brine.

--
Michael Press

Peter Cole

andresmuro@aol.com wrote:

> As I say before, it is not difficult to ride two hours without water
> on a cool day. I often run with no water for 1 1/2 hour in the
> mountains and do fine in cooler days. However, the problem is riding
> in hot days or humid days when you are sweating a lot.

I don't know, I think there's a lot of individual variation. I also
think (as Tom said) that you can acclimate somewhat.


> The same goes for refueling. You can ride on glycogen and fat stores
> for a couple of hours fine if you stay aerobic with only a few
> anaerobic or AT efforts. However, if you are riding for a lot more
> more than two hours and the ride includes several AT efforts and
> anaerobic efforts, you will bonk without refueling.
>

> Ideally, if a person will ride for several hours hard (perceived
> exertion) They should be drinking a bottle of water per hour and
> consuming a minimum of 25-30 carbs per hour. The stories of those that
> ride 5 hours on one water bottle with no fuel are fine. However, they
> don't contribute anything if we dont' know what effort your body did
> to accomplish the task. If it is hot and you are raising your heart
> rate above 70% you won't survive for more than two.

I have no idea about AT & all that -- I've never been measured. I do
know that I was able to ride a 42 mi rolling course (pace line) in under
2 hr on a sultry summer evening without fluids. I also know that I was
able to finish a 300k (200 mi) hilly brevet at a modest pace (~15) hr
without eating. Whether that "contributes anything", I don't know.

Tom Kunich

"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:rubrum-33A26F.20371917062008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
> <2d0486ae-2dc1-4c80-91fd-4689ed14e24c@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> Woland99 <woland99@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anyways - any possibility that you poisoned yourself
>> with bleach?
>
> No, unless he chugged it straight out of the bottle.
> The stuff salts out, leaving no toxic substances behind.
> It is ClO buffered in brine. Starts degrading as soon
> as it is diluted and turns into brine.

NOTE: BE SURE THAT THE BLEACH IS JUST BLEACH. NO SOAP OR SCENTS.

Michael Press

In article <vZidnX8ypON7ksTVnZ2dnUVZ_s_inZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-33A26F.20371917062008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
> > <2d0486ae-2dc1-4c80-91fd-4689ed14e24c@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> > Woland99 <woland99@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Anyways - any possibility that you poisoned yourself
> >> with bleach?
> >
> > No, unless he chugged it straight out of the bottle.
> > The stuff salts out, leaving no toxic substances behind.
> > It is ClO buffered in brine. Starts degrading as soon
> > as it is diluted and turns into brine.
>
> NOTE: BE SURE THAT THE BLEACH IS JUST BLEACH. NO SOAP OR SCENTS.

Yes, thanks. I should know better.

--
Michael Press

andresmuro@aol.com

On Jun 18, 7:19 am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> andresm...@aol.com wrote:
> > As I say before, it is not difficult to ride two hours without water
> > on a cool day. I often run with no water for 1 1/2 hour in the
> > mountains and do fine in cooler days. However, the problem is riding
> > in hot days or humid days when you are sweating a lot.
>
> I don't know, I think there's a lot of individual variation. I also
> think (as Tom said) that you can acclimate somewhat.
>
> > The same goes for refueling. You can ride on glycogen and fat stores
> > for a couple of hours fine if you stay aerobic with only a few
> > anaerobic or AT efforts. However, if you are riding for a lot more
> > more than two hours and the ride includes several AT efforts and
> > anaerobic efforts, you will bonk without refueling.
>
> > Ideally, if a person will ride for several hours hard (perceived
> > exertion) They should be drinking a bottle of water per hour and
> > consuming a minimum of 25-30 carbs per hour. The stories of those that
> > ride 5 hours on one water bottle with no fuel are fine. However, they
> > don't contribute anything if we dont' know what effort your body did
> > to accomplish the task. If it is hot and you are raising your heart
> > rate above 70% you won't survive for more than two.
>
> I have no idea about AT & all that -- I've never been measured. I do
> know that I was able to ride a 42 mi rolling course (pace line) in under
> 2 hr on a sultry summer evening without fluids. I also know that I was
> able to finish a 300k (200 mi) hilly brevet at a modest pace (~15) hr
> without eating. Whether that "contributes anything", I don't know.

you are clearly in good condition. Regarding the AT stuff, that means
how often, during the rides that you mention, did you heart beat so
fast that it felt that it was going to explode, how many times did you
feel nauseated, how many times did you feel that your legs felt like
rubber?

Whenever you get close to any of these points, your body is not able
to get energy from fat. So, it must metabolize it from glycogen. If
you get to these points too many times, if you are not getting in some
carbs you will bonk. Also, if you are ridding at intensities that make
you feel like barfing or close to barfing, you are also raising your
body temperature considerably. If so, you need to get fluids and salt
so that you won't dehydrate.

Regarding the two rides that you describe, the two hour paceline at
over 20 miles per hour could be an aerobic cruise for some or an
anaerobic nightmare for others. So, the question is did you feel like
your heart was coming of your chest every time you crested a hill and
started to sweat a lot? If you did, then you could start bonking and
cramping after an hour. If you were able to chat throughout the ride
except when you took a turn up the front, then it is not hard to do it
without putting anything in your mouth.

Regarding your long distance excursion, You probably kept an aerobic
pace that allowed you to burn fat throughout the ride. So again, the
two examples indicate that it is possible to do these things without
eating or drinking the often recommended amounts. However, the
important trick is not to know the distance, but the effort to
accomplish the task. Many of us can ride fast for two hours without
eating or drinking anything. It is not because we have taught our
bodies to ride hard without fuel. It is because we have trained out
bodies to a level where we are not working that hard so we need less
fuel.

Andres

D'ohBoy

On Jun 18, 12:17*pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article <vZidnX8ypON7ksTVnZ2dnUVZ_s_in...@earthlink.com>,
> *"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > "Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> >news:rubrum-33A26F.20371917062008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
> > > <2d0486ae-2dc1-4c80-91fd-4689ed14e...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> > > Woland99 <wolan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Anyways - any possibility that you poisoned yourself
> > >> with bleach?
>
> > > No, unless he chugged it straight out of the bottle.
> > > The stuff salts out, leaving no toxic substances behind.
> > > It is ClO buffered in brine. Starts degrading as soon
> > > as it is diluted and turns into brine.
>
> > NOTE: BE SURE THAT THE BLEACH IS JUST BLEACH. NO SOAP OR SCENTS.
>
> Yes, thanks. I should know better.
>
> --
> Michael Press

Good suggestion. Luckily I am too cheap to get the good smelling
stuff.

Started doing this (and changed over to straight water) after a
suspicious gunky ring appeared near the top of my bottle. Get fuel/
nutrients from gu's, food and tabs now. No more sticky gunk on my
bike, less issues with gunky bots.

D'ohBoy

Tom Kunich

"D'ohBoy" <petengail@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a4ffc965-92c3-46fa-bbed-a48c06a731a8@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Started doing this (and changed over to straight water) after a

> suspicious gunky ring appeared near the top of my bottle. Get fuel/

> nutrients from gu's, food and tabs now. No more sticky gunk on my

> bike, less issues with gunky bots.

I do the same thing - Gu or some other jel for food while riding and
straight water. When you do this you rarely get nauseous.

andresmuro@aol.com

On Jun 18, 3:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "D'ohBoy" <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a4ffc965-92c3-46fa-bbed-a48c06a731a8@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Started doing this (and changed over to straight water) after a
> > suspicious gunky ring appeared near the top of my bottle. Get fuel/
> > nutrients from gu's, food and tabs now. No more sticky gunk on my
> > bike, less issues with gunky bots.
>
> I do the same thing - Gu or some other jel for food while riding and
> straight water. When you do this you rarely get nauseous.

Gu tastes like crap and it is expensive. I get fruit slices at target.
A bag costs a dollar and has a ton of slices. Three slices have about
33 grams of carbohydrate. They go down easier than gu, Gatorade is
also good. Not too sweet and it keeps your bottles from growing fungi.

Tom Kunich

<andresmuro@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d119198a-d40f-4ade-993b-40549221b7f0@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Gu tastes like crap and it is expensive. I get fruit slices at target.
> A bag costs a dollar and has a ton of slices. Three slices have about
> 33 grams of carbohydrate. They go down easier than gu, Gatorade is
> also good. Not too sweet and it keeps your bottles from growing fungi.

1) Carrying "fruit slices" in your back pocket is nasty business squashing
it all into a Gu-like consistency. All I have to do is tear a top off of the
packet and suck the Gu up. Much easier, cleaner and effective.

2) Gatorade has ALWAYS made me sick. None of those "athletic drinks" works
at all for me but Gatorade Frost which seems to be made different from the
rest of these energy drinks. Nevertheless water works well so I don't need
to pay someone to make something palatable.

3) Gatorade in the water bottle guarantees fungus growing there unless you
wash them out with hot water and soap directly after the ride. And then that
washes all of the lubricant off of the cap and then they seize the next time
you use them.

andresmuro@aol.com

On Jun 18, 4:36 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> <andresm...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:d119198a-d40f-4ade-993b-40549221b7f0@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Gu tastes like crap and it is expensive. I get fruit slices at target.
> > A bag costs a dollar and has a ton of slices. Three slices have about
> > 33 grams of carbohydrate. They go down easier than gu, Gatorade is
> > also good. Not too sweet and it keeps your bottles from growing fungi.
>
> 1) Carrying "fruit slices" in your back pocket is nasty business squashing
> it all into a Gu-like consistency. All I have to do is tear a top off of the
> packet and suck the Gu up. Much easier, cleaner and effective.
>
> 2) Gatorade has ALWAYS made me sick. None of those "athletic drinks" works
> at all for me but Gatorade Frost which seems to be made different from the
> rest of these energy drinks. Nevertheless water works well so I don't need
> to pay someone to make something palatable.
>
> 3) Gatorade in the water bottle guarantees fungus growing there unless you
> wash them out with hot water and soap directly after the ride. And then that
> washes all of the lubricant off of the cap and then they seize the next time
> you use them.

I've been using a bento box for a few years now. It is the most anti-
roadie transgression that one can commit. However, I can put a lot of
shit in there instead of my pockets. Everyone makes fun of me, but I
end up saving the bonkers with granola bars and candy at the end of
long rides.

Regarding Gatorade, I have been drinking gatorade for about 10 years
now. When the ride is over I stick the bottles in the refrigerator and
leave them there until my next ride. If there is no more gatorade, I
will rinse and refill. If there is gatorade, I will add more water and
more powder and that is it. I have left bottles for years and they get
virtually no fungus. I am guessing that it is the citric acid. Many
years ago, I used to use Cytomax. It worked pretty well, but it used
to get mold within a couple of days if you didn't thoroughly wash your
bottles every day. I'm too lazy for that. Once I left a camelback
blader full of gatorade in the bottom drawer of the refrigerator for
over a year and forgot about it. My wife asked me why there was an
enema bag with yellows liquid in the refrigerator. After inspecting
it, there was one tiny spot of mold in the bag.

still just me

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:19:12 GMT, Peter Cole <peter_cole@verizon.net>
wrote:

>I have no idea about AT & all that -- I've never been measured. I do
>know that I was able to ride a 42 mi rolling course (pace line) in under
>2 hr on a sultry summer evening without fluids. I also know that I was
>able to finish a 300k (200 mi) hilly brevet at a modest pace (~15) hr
>without eating. Whether that "contributes anything", I don't know.

I'm "able" to ride quite a distance too without water. However, I'm
awfully thirsty later. The general rule of thumb is that if you are
thirsty, your body is already telling you that you are dehydrated. So,
it's not particularly good for you to do it that way. You are losing
moisture when you ride, you should put some back in periodically as
you ride.

One thing you can do is to suck down lots of water in the hours before
you ride. That way you will be fully hydrated when you start. I use
this technique when I run since carrying any water is out of the
question (for me).