Racing and Training, the unwritten rules

Super Mario · Apr 22, 2003

Can anyone tell me the unwritten rules fro training and racing?

Firstly, I was training in the park yesterday, on my own as I frequently do. When there was a group of 5 riders jump on my wheel. I told them that I was do some hills and sprints so they might be better off going about the training without me.

They told me not to worry. So when the mark that I used as a guide to start sprinting, off I went. Much to the frustration of the other 5! I kept on doing another 5 sprints at exactly the same place. I did a slow lap to cool down, when the main bunch caught me. I jumped onto the back and did 4 laps at the back of the bunch.

One of the 5 nut-jobs saw me at the back and started verbal abusing me cause I wouldn't do a turn at the front!

I race the same way! Am I wrong in not helping the other guy during training and racing? Why should I work hard during a race for someone else to take a break? Should I be racing for me so I can win, not the other guy? I thought that was the idea of racing, to win?

If I want to train on my own, shouldn't I be able to? I do this so I can get my heart rate up. If I work hard during training, then when I race, if I sit in the middle of the bunch and stay there, i won't be working as hard as I did at training, therefore I will have that bit extra at the end of a race!

Ritch · Apr 23, 2003

Super Mario <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Can anyone tell me the unwritten rules fro training and racing?
>
> Firstly, I was training in the park yesterday, on my own as I frequently
> do. When there was a group of 5 riders jump on my wheel. I told them that I was do some hills and
> sprints so they might be better off going about the training without me.
>
> They told me not to worry. So when the mark that I used as a guide to start sprinting, off I went.
> Much to the frustration of the other 5! I kept on doing another 5 sprints at exactly the same
> place. I did a slow lap to cool down, when the main bunch caught me. I jumped onto the back and
> did 4 laps at the back of the bunch.
>
> One of the 5 nut-jobs saw me at the back and started verbal abusing me cause I wouldn't do a turn
> at the front!
>
> I race the same way! Am I wrong in not helping the other guy during training and racing? Why
> should I work hard during a race for someone else to take a break? Should I be racing for me so I
> can win, not the other guy? I thought that was the idea of racing, to win?
>
> If I want to train on my own, shouldn't I be able to? I do this so I can get my heart rate up. If
> I work hard during training, then when I race, if I sit in the middle of the bunch and stay there,
> i won't be working as hard as I did at training, therefore I will have that bit extra at the end
> of a race!

In the park? Which park?

Peter Vesel · Apr 23, 2003

No you're not wrong. I can't see the point in sitting mid bunch and cruising, unless all you want to
do is win.

At my poor level I only race to get stronger. If I am still there at the end I'll try to win.

If I'm not very strong I'll rotate turns till I get dropped. If I am strong I'll attack. As far as
training goes it is each to his own. You told them what you were going to do.

That's how I see it Peter

"Super Mario" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Can anyone tell me the unwritten rules fro training and racing?
>
> Firstly, I was training in the park yesterday, on my own as I frequently
> do. When there was a group of 5 riders jump on my wheel. I told them that I was do some hills and
> sprints so they might be better off going about the training without me.
>
> They told me not to worry. So when the mark that I used as a guide to start sprinting, off I went.
> Much to the frustration of the other 5! I kept on doing another 5 sprints at exactly the same
> place. I did a slow lap to cool down, when the main bunch caught me. I jumped onto the back and
> did 4 laps at the back of the bunch.
>
> One of the 5 nut-jobs saw me at the back and started verbal abusing me cause I wouldn't do a turn
> at the front!
>
> I race the same way! Am I wrong in not helping the other guy during training and racing? Why
> should I work hard during a race for someone else to take a break? Should I be racing for me so I
> can win, not the other guy? I thought that was the idea of racing, to win?
>
> If I want to train on my own, shouldn't I be able to? I do this so I can get my heart rate up. If
> I work hard during training, then when I race, if I sit in the middle of the bunch and stay there,
> i won't be working as hard as I did at training, therefore I will have that bit extra at the end
> of a race!

>
>
>
> --
> I'm not going to say I'm the greatest cyclist, but I won't disagree with
anyone who says I am!
>
> I'm not going to say I'm the greatest cyclist, but I won't disagree with
anyone who says I am!
>
> >--------------------------<
> Posted via cyclingforums.com http://www.cyclingforums.com

Andrew G · Apr 23, 2003

there are unwritten rules i suppose. not doing a turn at the front when you are not a part of a
particular training group is not so bad. and if you are, then they will tell you what the go is. and
will put up with your foibles. sprint training indeed!

not doing a turn in a HANDICAP race slows the bunch as most guys there know what you are about and
dont want to wear themselves out carrying you to the finish line. If everyone has this attitude, the
race becomes slow and boring. Your bunch also gets caught. As Handicaps were prevalant in OZ, this
work to win attitude persists.

PS. I havent raced for years now.

"Peter Vesel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
: No you're not wrong. I can't see the point in sitting mid bunch and cruising, unless all you
want
: to do is win.
:
: At my poor level I only race to get stronger. If I am still there at the
end
: I'll try to win.
:
: If I'm not very strong I'll rotate turns till I get dropped. If I am
strong
: I'll attack. As far as training goes it is each to his own. You told them what you were
: going to do.
:
: That's how I see it Peter
:
:
: "Super Mario" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: news:[email protected]...
: > Can anyone tell me the unwritten rules fro training and racing?
: >
: > Firstly, I was training in the park yesterday, on my own as I frequently
: > do. When there was a group of 5 riders jump on my wheel. I told them that I was do some hills
: > and sprints so they might be better off going about the training without me.
: >
: > They told me not to worry. So when the mark that I used as a guide to start sprinting, off I
: > went. Much to the frustration of the other 5! I kept on doing another 5 sprints at exactly the
: > same place. I did a slow lap to cool down, when the main bunch caught me. I jumped onto the back
: > and did 4 laps at the back of the bunch.
: >
: > One of the 5 nut-jobs saw me at the back and started verbal abusing me cause I wouldn't do a
: > turn at the front!
: >
: > I race the same way! Am I wrong in not helping the other guy during training and racing? Why
: > should I work hard during a race for someone else to take a break? Should I be racing for me so
: > I can win, not the other guy? I thought that was the idea of racing, to win?
: >
: > If I want to train on my own, shouldn't I be able to? I do this so I can get my heart rate up.
: > If I work hard during training, then when I race, if I sit in the middle of the bunch and stay
: > there, i won't be working as hard as I did at training, therefore I will have that bit extra at
: > the end of a race!

: >
: >
: >
: > --
: > I'm not going to say I'm the greatest cyclist, but I won't disagree with
: anyone who says I am!
: >
: > I'm not going to say I'm the greatest cyclist, but I won't disagree with
: anyone who says I am!
: >
: > >--------------------------<
: > Posted via cyclingforums.com http://www.cyclingforums.com
:
:

Keith · Apr 23, 2003

Super Mario wrote ...
> Can anyone tell me the unwritten rules fro training and racing? .... One of the 5 nut-jobs saw me
> at the back and started verbal abusing me cause I wouldn't do a turn at the front!
>
> I race the same way! Am I wrong in not helping the other guy during training and racing? .... If I
> want to train on my own, shouldn't I be able to?

Good observation, and well presented. I really like the idea of writing down the 'unwritten rules'!
Cycling is such a widespread activity that participants come to it with so many different
motivations, interests, standards etc. We already mark ourselves out as individualists by being on
the bike and not on the couch in front of the TV or behind the wheel of a CAR, so you'll find some
strongly held views, often not expressed with modesty or reticence, among us. On the other hand, we
have the bond of cycling as a common link, countering our individualistic tendencies. Cycling
depends upon the initiative of the individual and the collegiality of the group.

Where you sit is up to you, but consider the costs as well as the benefits as you place yourself on
the spectrum.

Keith

Super Mario · Apr 27, 2003

Another example of someone spitting the dummy was in a local race.

I was sitting at the back of the bunch, there were about 21 of us. I had been sitting on the back for about 20kms (it was a 60km race). I slowly moved to the front during the next 30kms. When it was my turn at the front I sped off. The bunch didn't react and I had any easy ride to the end.

After it was all over, I had a run in with a total nut job who accused me of cheating for not doing a turn while most of the others did!

I don't care! I won the race, he didn't. Racing is exactly that, RACING! Why should I help someone else win?

I've also heard the rule, don't chase your team mates. My coach from the States dissagrees. If I am not going to get any sort of reward for not chasing, then chase. If he wins, he gets the credits, not the guy that doesn't chase!

Rman · Apr 28, 2003

What grade are you in ? You get more sooking from lower grades in my experience. In higher grades,
if you try and ride solo off the front like that, they'll either let you go for a bit then attack
you and leave you trembling and quivering in the back of the bunch, or respond to your initial move
with such force, result the same as above.

Well that what happens to me anyway.

And in my experience, I only get good results when I have friends in the bunch, either they launch
with me for an attack, or they block for myself and others when we attack. This is in B grade.
Anyone who can ride off for solo wins in B grade moves up to A grade pretty fast in my area, where
sustained, solo attacks never, ever, succeed (except maybe for last km bursts).

You, Mario, maybe making enemies, and if you can win solo in low grades, good luck, but in the
higher grades, you'll need buddies. Be nice out there fella.

RMan

"Super Mario" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Another example of someone spitting the dummy was in a local race.
>
> I was sitting at the back of the bunch, there were about 21 of us. I had been sitting on the back
> for about 20kms (it was a 60km race). I slowly moved to the front during the next 30kms. When it
> was my turn at the front I sped off. The bunch didn't react and I had any easy ride to the end.
>
> After it was all over, I had a run in with a total nut job who accused me of cheating for not
> doing a turn while most of the others did!
>
> I don't care! I won the race, he didn't. Racing is exactly that, RACING! Why should I help someone
> else win?
>
> I've also heard the rule, don't chase your team mates. My coach from the States dissagrees. If I
> am not going to get any sort of reward for not chasing, then chase. If he wins, he gets the
> credits, not the guy that doesn't chase!

>
>
>
> --
> I'm not going to say I'm the greatest cyclist, but I won't disagree with
anyone who says I am!
>
> >--------------------------<
> Posted via cyclingforums.com http://www.cyclingforums.com

Andrew G · Apr 29, 2003

the conditions in the states are not the conditions here.

try a new tactic next time.

no you werent cheating. but they will learn! "Super Mario" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
: Another example of someone spitting the dummy was in a local race.
:
: I was sitting at the back of the bunch, there were about 21 of us. I had been sitting on the back
: for about 20kms (it was a 60km race). I slowly moved to the front during the next 30kms. When it
: was my turn at the front I sped off. The bunch didn't react and I had any easy ride to the end.
:
: After it was all over, I had a run in with a total nut job who accused me of cheating for not
: doing a turn while most of the others did!
:
: I don't care! I won the race, he didn't. Racing is exactly that, RACING! Why should I help someone
: else win?
:
: I've also heard the rule, don't chase your team mates. My coach from the States dissagrees. If I
: am not going to get any sort of reward for not chasing, then chase. If he wins, he gets the
: credits, not the guy that doesn't chase!

:
:
:
: --
: I'm not going to say I'm the greatest cyclist, but I won't disagree with
anyone who says I am!
:
: >--------------------------<
: Posted via cyclingforums.com http://www.cyclingforums.com

Super Mario · Apr 29, 2003

Andrew,

why shouldn't I chase if I'm not getting anything for sitting back?
There have been quite a few instances (before I imployed this new tactic) when I have been chase by team mates.

At the end of the race, They just said to me that I was just unlucky! I'm not in the sport to help team mates anymore. It might sound harsh, but you don't get recognition for helping a mate win when he gets the prize money. I don't think I should pay 10 bucks a week for a race that I have to help someone else win.

I have been more succsesful with this new tactic than before I used this system. I might step on a few toes, but I'm winning races. I have gone from C grade to A grade in 3 months with this new coach. His way might upset some people, but whatever works.

He also told me to jump staright onto a wheel when someone attacks and stay with him, when he tires jump off the front. This has worked as well.

I was in a 2 man break not long ago, we had about a 500m lead. I droped off the guy in front by about 10m. I figured that he is going to tire at the same rate I am. I sucked down half a bidon of Gatorade and sucked on 3 carbo gel packets, when he tired I jumped past him, and won comfortably while he got sucked in by the bunch and finished at the back of the pack.

Rman · Apr 30, 2003

"Super Mario" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Andrew,
>
> why shouldn't I chase if I'm not getting anything for sitting back? There have been quite a few
> instances (before I imployed this new tactic) when I have been chase by team mates.
>
> At the end of the race, They just said to me that I was just unlucky! I'm not in the sport to help
> team mates anymore. It might sound harsh, but you don't get recognition for helping a mate win
> when he gets the prize money. I don't think I should pay 10 bucks a week for a race that I have to
> help someone else win.
>
> I have been more succsesful with this new tactic than before I used this system. I might step on a
> few toes, but I'm winning races. I have gone from C grade to A grade in 3 months with this new
> coach. His way might upset some people, but whatever works.
>
> He also told me to jump staright onto a wheel when someone attacks and stay with him, when he
> tires jump off the front. This has worked as well.
>
> I was in a 2 man break not long ago, we had about a 500m lead. I droped off the guy in front by
> about 10m. I figured that he is going to tire at the same rate I am. I sucked down half a bidon of
> Gatorade and sucked on 3 carbo gel packets, when he tired I jumped past him, and won comfortably
> while he got sucked in by the bunch and finished at the back of the pack.

>

The only guys I've seen do this in any local A grade race and succeed are pros or near pros, Jamie
Drew, David McKenzie, Johnny/Hilton Clarke, Snozza, Chris Carr and retiring/ex pros, such as Robert
Crowe. And I have only seen one solo break more than a few km out in an A grade race succeed and
that was by a Snozza, ex Aus TT champ, who just popped everyone with a sustained 50 kmh burst into a
head wind.

If you even tried any of these tactics around these guys, 1. they'll blow you away and 2. next race
they'll blow you way on purpose to remind you what it's all about. I actually think you may be FOS
and lucky and perhaps need to race elsewhere. Perhaps you are a near Pro, I don't know, but
something is NQR with the tales you tell. If you're using these tactics in A grade then it must be
pretty week A grade if you can solo off the front to a win, 'cos only the best in A grade can. Are
you one of the best ?

Super Mario · Apr 30, 2003

I am!

Super Mario · Apr 30, 2003

When I said comfortably, I meant by about 10m. It's not like I had huge gap. But a win is a win. I never do any work in a race. I used to and wouldn't have anything left at the end.

But doing bugger all in a race and letting everyone else work is best for me.
As Lance say's "It's a race, I'm here to win, it's not a popularity contest"

Super Mario · Apr 30, 2003

I must also point out, that I make sure that I never race against anyone with a reputation like you mentioned. If there is anyone who would be better than me, well I just won't race.

There have been a few races like that this year. And you also mentioned racing else where. That would mean traveling! I like just riding 4km to each race, so racing anywhere other than down the local club is just out of the question! I don't want to travel halfay across sydney and not be assured of a place!

I might as well just drop 10 bucks in the street. At least racing and winning down at the local club, I'm assured of a return! It might be only 50 bucks, but it is better than nothing.

Originally posted by Rman
"Super Mario" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Andrew,
>
> why shouldn't I chase if I'm not getting anything for sitting back? There have been quite a few
> instances (before I imployed this new tactic) when I have been chase by team mates.
>
> At the end of the race, They just said to me that I was just unlucky! I'm not in the sport to help
> team mates anymore. It might sound harsh, but you don't get recognition for helping a mate win
> when he gets the prize money. I don't think I should pay 10 bucks a week for a race that I have to
> help someone else win.
>
> I have been more succsesful with this new tactic than before I used this system. I might step on a
> few toes, but I'm winning races. I have gone from C grade to A grade in 3 months with this new
> coach. His way might upset some people, but whatever works.
>
> He also told me to jump staright onto a wheel when someone attacks and stay with him, when he
> tires jump off the front. This has worked as well.
>
> I was in a 2 man break not long ago, we had about a 500m lead. I droped off the guy in front by
> about 10m. I figured that he is going to tire at the same rate I am. I sucked down half a bidon of
> Gatorade and sucked on 3 carbo gel packets, when he tired I jumped past him, and won comfortably
> while he got sucked in by the bunch and finished at the back of the pack.
>

The only guys I've seen do this in any local A grade race and succeed are pros or near pros, Jamie
Drew, David McKenzie, Johnny/Hilton Clarke, Snozza, Chris Carr and retiring/ex pros, such as Robert
Crowe. And I have only seen one solo break more than a few km out in an A grade race succeed and
that was by a Snozza, ex Aus TT champ, who just popped everyone with a sustained 50 kmh burst into a
head wind.

If you even tried any of these tactics around these guys, 1. they'll blow you away and 2. next race
they'll blow you way on purpose to remind you what it's all about. I actually think you may be FOS
and lucky and perhaps need to race elsewhere. Perhaps you are a near Pro, I don't know, but
something is NQR with the tales you tell. If you're using these tactics in A grade then it must be
pretty week A grade if you can solo off the front to a win, 'cos only the best in A grade can. Are
you one of the best ?

Mark Lee · Apr 30, 2003

"Super Mario" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I must also point out, that I make sure that I never race against anyone with a reputation like
> you mentioned. If there is anyone who would be better than me, well I just won't race.
>

Woohoo!! You da man! Mark Lee

Super Mario · Apr 30, 2003

Kool huh? Pisses a lot of people off!

Originally posted by Mark Lee
"Super Mario" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I must also point out, that I make sure that I never race against anyone with a reputation like
> you mentioned. If there is anyone who would be better than me, well I just won't race.
>

Woohoo!! You da man! Mark Lee

Gistane · Apr 30, 2003

Super Mario there are a few things you will learn from a bike race though and just remember you may be able to sit in in a bike race now and do no work and consume yourself but just wait till people enjoy to take you off the back all the time because you havent done a turn

I loved summer time (NOT) where i dont even train at all i race on a saturday and race A Grade so i do like 60 - 100km a week and the other A Graders doing 600+k a week think that we all must be doing as much as they do so expect you to come through every single time and do a turn even though sometimes you struggle just to hold last wheel.

There is a huge lack of riders not letting other riders ride their own race these days and they will do anything to make you ride their way and do work.

Rman · Apr 30, 2003

"Super Mario" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]... [snip]
e.
>
> There have been a few races like that this year. And you also mentioned racing else where. That
> would mean traveling! I like just riding 4km to each race, so racing anywhere other than down the
> local club is just out of the question! I don't want to travel halfay across sydney and not be
> assured of a place!
>

Just as I thought, you are FOS, or trolling, in case well done, you've suckered me.......

I'll race anywhere, anytime, anyone and bugga the 10 bucks I lose 99.5% of the time.

WTF do you do if the field looks too tough ?

Go home ?

Super Mario · Apr 30, 2003

I agree. But I don't see why I should work for someone else's benefit!
As I mentioned before "It's a race, I'm there to win, It's not a popuarity contest.

If a rider doesn't like the way ride (i ride safe) then that's his problem. If there is a possibiltiy that I would get dropped, then I won't start the race!

No use forking out 10 bucks for someone else's wallet!

Super Mario · Apr 30, 2003

If the feild looks too tough, I won't start! I might get called everything under the sun, butI don't care!

The best part, I race club in A-grade, and yet my licence say's
E-grade. And thats what I enter opens in! Easy 100 bucks!

Originally posted by Super Mario
I agree. But I don't see why I should work for someone else's benefit!
As I mentioned before "It's a race, I'm there to win, It's not a popuarity contest.

If a rider doesn't like the way ride (i ride safe) then that's his problem. If there is a possibiltiy that I would get dropped, then I won't start the race!

No use forking out 10 bucks for someone else's wallet!

Super Mario · Apr 30, 2003

And if i happen to race at a different club, I'll go down 2 grades! Who will know? It actually doesn't worry me!

I just like winning. If I can't I won't race. It might get up peoples noses.

I was not always with this attitude, but issues arising at my last club changed my mind!

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