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Poll: Hating America - Page 7

post #91 of 343
L.Man,

I'm sorry, it wasn't that clear that way you stated it...You stated "It had been reported" that could have been reported by some tabloid.... However, the DOD still has it under investigation...So, in my opinion, people are innocent until PROOVEN guilty.

However, this is probably what you read:

"the killing of an inmate attempting to escape, and 10 other deaths that were still under investigation.

He said the other 10 cases involved deaths of inmates for undetermined or natural causes.

One homicide involved a soldier who shot to death an Iraqi for throwing rocks at him."


Rocks can kill, and you can die from a shot to the stomach so, if I'm holding a prisoner, and he wants to throw rocks at ME? I say...bang bang! too bad, it's him or me!
I wonder if we had pictures of your government holding German Prisoners and how they treated them during WWII if they would reflect the same...How many German prisoners died while in captivity in your part of the world..eh? I'll bet ya, a lot more that a dozen!

Also, concerning My Presidents comments.. I think it was a MISTAKE! But during an election year, I can see why he may have done it. I will tell you this and it disgusts me...two days ago on every news station in the US, EVERY 5 MINUTES EVERY NEWS CASTER MENTIONED THE WORD APPOLOGIZE! It was if it was scripted from the very beginning from the DEMs over here...No surprise, Republicans own talk radio and the DEMS own TV!

Should Winston Churchill have apologized? Roosevelt? For whatever reason, the rest of the world thinks we owe them an apology for something. Take this forum for instance...How many times have I apologized(even in this post..look at the beginning)...How many have you offered up one LMAN? Are you always right?

We Americans are always made to feel guilty about something...its in our nature I guess. We win wars, we feel guilty, we pour money into the country that we defeated and build them up and then they attack us again... So, yes, in that respect, we should apologize for being Civil...Even in victory. My point again, why try to be civil if it still won't please everyone...I say just go in take care of business and then appologize...quicker results that way!

Lastly, we have over 130,000 troops deployed and yes, there will be a few that will not behave in a civilized manner. Dispicable isn't it? during war???

As far as Iraq and 9/11 I believe we have already decided we will never agree about that one. I suppose you believe we attacked Iraq as a son's promise to his daddy or for the oil and we are in Afghanistan for the drugs...


Limerickman, the bottom line is...It is not U.S. policy to torture prisoners or purposely kill innocent civilians..hell, we even have to be mindful of the whales with our naval ships...But as usual, the media, out of self preservation has to sensationalize a story to make $$$$.. I see were you get your skills..I am no match for you as a mere ordinary citizen....However, why don't we talk about how lucrative the Media business is L.MAN? Care to tell us how your bread is buttered???

Enquiring minds what to know......
post #92 of 343
Quote:
Originally posted by Fixey
Hey Zapper
Firstly, I believe the tone of this thread has improved alot... cheers for the friendly response
secondly, the communist party here died along time ago, I have never read any of there doctrone.
Hi Fixey,

First of all, props to you for helping the children...They are our future and One of the many reasons I enlisted in my countries military...However, Limerick my old chum would have you believe I did it to get rich...

I guess I need to read a little more about your counties nuk policy to be a little more informed to discuss the matter. So, I'm not going to just spout off some frail opinion, so I'll give ya that one.

The thread has improved alot and I hope there is more talk about the matter.

I wish you all the luck with your home and I can identify with your points...

Well, since I'm in the military let me get back to murdering prisoners and taking pictures of them....(NOT!)

Through that one in for I know thats what the LMAN thinks I'm doing....



By the way, how are you guys poised for the Cup... or do you keep up with that?
post #93 of 343

Re: Poll: Hating America

Quote:
Originally posted by bioguy
A new book called "Hating America: The New World Sport" suggests a couple of things. First, that the U.S. is generally hated by the world. Second that our historic allies are not our friends.

Questions:
1. Where are you from?
2. Do you hate the U.S.?
3. Did we deserve to be attacked on 9/11?
1. Dallas, TX

2. No

3. Of course not...

All of that said; I do not agree with the war in Iraq. I'm a Democrat and will vote for Kerry (although...I really wish it had been Dean nominated, not Kerry). I don't think the U.S., or any sovereign nation, "deserves" to be attacked, occupied, or otherwise assaulted without direct actions against the assaulting nation. I disagree with the whole idea of a "pre-emptive strike" (Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11); and even if I agreed that we should act pre-emptively, if there is an imminent threat; I don't believe that Iraq, in March 2003, was an imminent threat to the U.S.

Phew...how's that for an answer.

Lisa
post #94 of 343

Re: Re: Poll: Hating America

Quote:
Originally posted by lisan
1. Dallas, TX

2. No

3. Of course not...

All of that said; I do not agree with the war in Iraq. I'm a Democrat and will vote for Kerry (although...I really wish it had been Dean nominated, not Kerry). I don't think the U.S., or any sovereign nation, "deserves" to be attacked, occupied, or otherwise assaulted without direct actions against the assaulting nation. I disagree with the whole idea of a "pre-emptive strike" (Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11); and even if I agreed that we should act pre-emptively, if there is an imminent threat; I don't believe that Iraq, in March 2003, was an imminent threat to the U.S.

Phew...how's that for an answer.
Lisa
Lisan,

Honest answer and I respect your beliefs I have a brother in Houston, who is also a DEM...(poor sap.. ).However, be aware that for over 11 years Iraq shot at our pilots enforcing the No Fly Zone and did not adhere to the stipulations presented to sadaam by the U.N. What good is having an orginization such as the U.N. if its words mean nothing..i.e. no one backs them up with action?

Secondly, you can't be serious about dean...can you? Although a republican, I would have considered Lieberman agains that crew you had to chose from...Good luck with flip flop man and his "Benedict Arnold" stock of his, since his wifes company "outsources" over 70% of their work to other countries...

Further,
When he is talking to energy conservationists..he is downsizing and only has a mini van and a economy car to tool around D.C.

When he is stumping in Detroit, he has a Suburban, a couple of minivans, a pt cruiser a large Truck etc...if he will lie about what kind of car he drives, if he will lie about throwing his medals away? BTW I'm in the military, "they are not interchangeable" then what else eh? But, I know, you don't have much to choose from now and if you hate bush that much to put flipper in...then, Good luck to ya.

I respect your opinion, it is your right... just have a opposite view to yours thats all...

cheers!
post #95 of 343

Re: Re: Re: Poll: Hating America

Quote:
Originally posted by zapper
Lisan,

Honest answer and I respect your beliefs I have a brother in Houston, who is also a DEM...(poor sap.. ).
I agree...poor sap (living in Houston - ick!).

Quote:
However, be aware that for over 11 years Iraq shot at our pilots enforcing the No Fly Zone and did not adhere to the stipulations presented to sadaam by the U.N. What good is having an orginization such as the U.N. if its words mean nothing..i.e. no one backs them up with action?
presented to sadaam by ??? THE U.N. (that's an N, not an S!). The U.N. inspections were working; if not, then where are the WMDs?

Quote:
Secondly, you can't be serious about dean...can you?
Uh...yes...definitely serious. He needs much more polishing, but I totally agree with his ideals.

Quote:
Although a republican, I would have considered Lieberman agains that crew you had to chose from...
Which is why Lieberman was last on my list...too many Republicans liked him (and, no, that's not the only reason I didn't like Lieberman). For your party, how on earth did they chose Bush over McCain? I would have voted for McCain over Gore on any day.

Quote:
Good luck with flip flop man and his "Benedict Arnold" stock of his, since his wifes company "outsources" over 70% of their work to other countries...
See, this is the political cr@p that Reps. think they are so good at. Besides the fact that neither Kerry nor his wife have ANYTHING to do with, nor do they have ANY input whatsoever with the business decisions made by the executives at Heinz; the Heinz Corporation has given millions in contributions to...drum roll, please...the BUSH campaign...and NOT ONE PENNY to the Kerry campaign. So, if you want to talk hypocrisy, then at least get your facts straight.

Quote:
Further,
When he is talking to energy conservationists..he is downsizing and only has a mini van and a economy car to tool around D.C.

When he is stumping in Detroit, he has a Suburban, a couple of minivans, a pt cruiser a large Truck etc...if he will lie about what kind of car he drives, if he will lie about throwing his medals away?
I really don't know much about this particular issue. I don't know what the claims are that have been made about Kerry and his military awards; I do know that he, himself, has admitted that he has said and done things following Vietnam that were the actions of a foolish young person, trying to express his discontent with the U.S.'s Vietnam policy. I think that is fair. BTW, I'm not one of those Dems. that thinks Bush is evil. I think he is a good man that is doing what he thinks is right and just - I just disagree with him. I don't care about his military background and I don't care about his personal life; all I care about is his leadership abilities and views on issues important to me and my family.

Quote:
BTW I'm in the military
Good for you...and thanks for all you do.

Quote:
, "they are not interchangeable" then what else eh?
HUH???

Quote:
But, I know, you don't have much to choose from now and if you hate bush that much to put flipper in...then, Good luck to ya.
Like I said...I don't hate Bush. I think he's a good man; just a poor leader and not someone that is making decisions that I agree with.

Quote:
I respect your opinion, it is your right... just have a opposite view to yours thats all...
Obviously.

Quote:
cheers!
Back at ya'.
Lisa
post #96 of 343
Quote:
Originally posted by zapper
L.Man,

I'm sorry, it wasn't that clear that way you stated it...You stated "It had been reported" that could have been reported by some tabloid.... However, the DOD still has it under investigation...So, in my opinion, people are innocent until PROOVEN guilty.
Limerickman : Indeed people are innocent until proven guilty - but on the basis that the US DoD has prepared a case with charges of homicide against two of it's own soldiers, indicates to me that
DoD are in possession of such evidence that makes them (DoD) feel that they can bring a case.
By the way I do not read "tabloids" - I read what we call broadsheets : Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Times of London, The Irish Times etc.

However, this is probably what you read:

"the killing of an inmate attempting to escape, and 10 other deaths that were still under investigation.

He said the other 10 cases involved deaths of inmates for undetermined or natural causes.

One homicide involved a soldier who shot to death an Iraqi for throwing rocks at him."


Rocks can kill, and you can die from a shot to the stomach so, if I'm holding a prisoner, and he wants to throw rocks at ME? I say...bang bang! too bad, it's him or me!
I wonder if we had pictures of your government holding German Prisoners and how they treated them during WWII if they would reflect the same...How many German prisoners died while in captivity in your part of the world..eh? I'll bet ya, a lot more that a dozen!
Limerickman : Your country along with many other nations signed up to the Geneva Convention.
The Geneva Convention is clear and unequivocal when it stipulates the steps that soldiers must take when engaging,
capturing and imprisoning their enemy.
Your country and it's forces are bound by that convention.
If a person throws a rock at a soldier - that soldier is required under the Geneva Convention to identify himself to that combatant and to instruct that combatant to desist from attacking.
If the combatant refuses to engage with this instruction, the soldier is compelled to disarm that combatant with minimum force.
Question : did that particular soldier identify himself to that combatant ?
If so, why did the soldier not disarm the combatant with minimum
harm to that combatant ?

Also, concerning My Presidents comments.. I think it was a MISTAKE! But during an election year, I can see why he may have done it. I will tell you this and it disgusts me...two days ago on every news station in the US, EVERY 5 MINUTES EVERY NEWS CASTER MENTIONED THE WORD APPOLOGIZE! It was if it was scripted from the very beginning from the DEMs over here...No surprise, Republicans own talk radio and the DEMS own TV!
Limerickman : Are you implying that the Democratic Party have a special "in" with the national (US) and international media whereby it can influence the reporting of the Bush's apology ?
The media did not torture and humiliate those prisoners in Abu Gharaib prison - it was the US army who did these actions and your Commander in Chief is apologising for this.
The media were simply reporting that apology.

Should Winston Churchill have apologized? Roosevelt? For whatever reason, the rest of the world thinks we owe them an apology for something. Take this forum for instance...How many times have I apologized(even in this post..look at the beginning)...How many have you offered up one LMAN? Are you always right?
Limerickman : I take very very grave exception to your attempt to equate the Iraq War with WW2.
First of all, the League of Nations sanctioned the allied response
to the those forces such as Nazism in 1939-1945.
WW2 was deemed a "just war" to stop the spread of Nazism/
This war in Iraq is illegal - it was not approved by the United Nations, it was not supported by MILLIONS of people in your country and throughout the world.
This illegal war was perpetrated on a series of lies put out by the
Busg Goverment at the United Nations and throughout the international media.
The war premised upon the potential threat of WMD - has been
subsequently been confirmed to be a lie by Colin Powell.
To give Bush equal moral equivalence to Winston Chruchill or Roosevelt is sickening.
Winston Churchill unlike Bush did his national duty and served in the armed forces of his country unlike Bush !

We Americans are always made to feel guilty about something...its in our nature I guess. We win wars, we feel guilty, we pour money into the country that we defeated and build them up and then they attack us again... So, yes, in that respect, we should apologize for being Civil...Even in victory. My point again, why try to be civil if it still won't please everyone...I say just go in take care of business and then appologize...quicker results that way!
Limerickman : perhaps you - as a nation - feel guilty for perpetrating an illegal war ?
Credit where it is due - with US help Europe would still be at each others throats and the job of reconstruction would still be in it's infancy.
We in Europe owe a debt of gratitude to Secretary Marshall for helping to reconstruct - peacefully- Europe.

Lastly, we have over 130,000 troops deployed and yes, there will be a few that will not behave in a civilized manner. Dispicable isn't it? during war???
Limerickman : Your Mr.Rumsfeld tonight in front of the Arms Senate Committee has informed us that there are thousands of photographs and a video showing systematic torture in Iraq.
Despicable - you said it.

As far as Iraq and 9/11 I believe we have already decided we will never agree about that one. I suppose you believe we attacked Iraq as a son's promise to his daddy or for the oil and we are in Afghanistan for the drugs...
Limerickman : it is my contention that the USA's only interest in Iraq ia to do with Oil.

Limerickman, the bottom line is...It is not U.S. policy to torture prisoners or purposely kill innocent civilians..hell, we even have to be mindful of the whales with our naval ships...But as usual, the media, out of self preservation has to sensationalize a story to make $$$$.. I see were you get your skills..I am no match for you as a mere ordinary citizen....However, why don't we talk about how lucrative the Media business is L.MAN? Care to tell us how your bread is buttered???
Limerickman : I truly hope that the US army is what you say it is.
What has happened in Abu Ghuraib is disgusting and it casts your
country and it's forces in a terrible light.
The definition of an army is discipline - what happened in AG was a total breakdown in discipline.
The use of contractors (mercenaries) by the US forces is wrong.
I also feel that the GI's who are there may not be trained correctly.
Any army worth it's salt has to be disciplined at all times - even under the greatest duress.
The photographs and the situation in which they were taken, were not conditions of extreme duress (to the soldiers).
If some GI's cannot maintain their discipline in relatively stress free conditions - what hope do they have when under fire ??

Limerickman :
Finally, it is of little importance where I work - the media organisation I work for is state funded - we don't need to
"increase ratings" or sensationalise issues.
We have a saying here in Ireland "perhaps I'm speaking too quickly or you're listening too slowly"
The media - in this instance - are reporting the wrongdoing of soldiers in AG.
To blame the media for the disgusting acts of these soldiers is perverse and duplicitous.
Zapper - blame the soldiers - not the media





Enquiring minds what to know......
post #97 of 343
Quote:
Originally posted by limerickman
I am very familiar with the geneva convention! What you fail to understand is that mistakes will be made and these brave men and women of the U.S. military may make an error in judgement. But don't you dare infer that these frivolous absurdities are torture! Humiliating yes, torture? uh...I don't think so. So, I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt and there are 150 soldiers not adhering to the Geneva Convention...While the other 130,000 + ARE! Give me a break!

What portion of the Geneva Convention are the terrorist adhering to? Please answer that one, I really want to know.

Further, WHO in the heck needs the U.N.? As far as I'm concerned it is a farce!

Look, our military COC is investigating these DISPICABLE acts and have been for some time.

How dare you typcast or try to impune the integrity of OUR troops who are risking their lives...SHAME ON YOU. Secondly, you have never been underfire have you? Yet you dare make a point about Bush? I very disapointed in you...

Like I said, under the right circumstances, I would have shot rock man too! You nor I don't know what steps were taken to disarm him prior to shooting him..

No the media weren't the perpatrators..Just the catylists for a shark feeding frenzy...What else is new. By blowing the lid off of this when asked to keep it quiet until we settled down the insurgents it put OUR BOYS and GIRLS at further RISK...Bad call once again by the Media who cares only about self preservation!

Limerickman, cool your jets....I blame the soldiers the handful out of hundreds of thousands that are doing good work...I blame the media for portraying that this is how every American Soldier Acts and for PUTTING OUR TROOPS AT RISK!

My friend, if you can't see "eye-to-eye" on that one then you are beyond help...

I can understand that you are embarrased by some of the stuff you spin on here and thus are afraid to be identified by your place of employment. I wasn't trying to get an address on you, I was just curious as to what orginization you worked for...

Oh, we don't feel guilty for being in an illegal war, you just want us to feel guilty for doing the right thing!
post #98 of 343

Re: Re: Re: Re: Poll: Hating America

Quote:
Originally posted by lisan
I agree...poor sap (living in Houston - ick!).

Just glad to be here in VA!

presented to sadaam by ??? THE U.N. (that's an N, not an S!). The U.N. inspections were working; if not, then where are the WMDs? Lisa, Lisa, Lisa....who do you think was enforcing the "No fly zone" ??? The U.N.??? No thats a S not an N! tehee

Uh...yes...definitely serious. He needs much more polishing, but I totally agree with his ideals.

NOT ENOUGH POLISH IN THE WORLD!!!


Which is why Lieberman was last on my list...too many Republicans liked him (and, no, that's not the only reason I didn't like Lieberman). For your party, how on earth did they chose Bush over McCain? I would have voted for McCain over Gore on any day.

BUT GORE ENDORSED YOUR UNPOLISHED CANDIDATE????


See, this is the political cr@p that Reps. think they are so good at. Besides the fact that neither Kerry nor his wife have ANYTHING to do with, nor do they have ANY input whatsoever with the business decisions made by the executives at Heinz; the Heinz Corporation has given millions in contributions to...drum roll, please...the BUSH campaign...and NOT ONE PENNY to the Kerry campaign. So, if you want to talk hypocrisy, then at least get your facts straight.


LET'S GET ONE FACT STRAIGHT. THEY DO OWN STOCK AND IT'S IN THE MILLIONS...YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT...SO, IF HE IS ELECTED I SUPPOSE HE WOULD FORCE THIS "BENEDICT ARNOLD" COMPANY TO MOVE ALL THOSE JOBS BACK TO THE US???WHAT IS HIS PLAN FOR THAT? DOES HE HAVE A PLAN FOR ANYTHING.
SO, KERRY IS CONTRIBUTING TO BUSH'S CAMPAIGN....WOW, THAT'S A GOOD ONE.....

I really don't know much about this particular issue. I don't know what the claims are that have been made about Kerry and his military awards; I do know that he, himself, has admitted that he has said and done things following Vietnam that were the actions of a foolish young person, trying to express his discontent with the U.S.'s Vietnam policy. SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT....THE DEMS SAY THAT YOUNG BUSH WHO WAS IN THE NATIONAL GUARD DIDN'T SHOW UP here and there AND THAT IS A DISGRACE BUT A YOUNG KERRY...who burned viliages, sold out his comrads was just a foolish young person and thus deserves to be President...pure genius! The new Liberal Party is getting funnier by the minute...Don't they have a show on comedy central???

however,
WELL YOU BETTER CARE ABOUT A LIAR AND SOMEONE WHO IS SPINLESS LEADING THIS COUNTRY...

HOW CAN YOU THINK THAT SOMEONE WHO CAN'T MAKE UP HIS OWN MIND, WHO LIES IN PUBLIC DAILY IS A GOOD LEADER???

WHAT DO YOU THINK OTHER NATIONS WILL FEEL TOWARDS US KNOWING THAT ONE DAY HE IS SAYING ONE THING, TOMORROW...180 DEGREE TURN????

Good for you...and thanks for all you do.

Appreciate the thanks but don't deserve it...I just enjoy protecting your right to be WRONG....


Like I said...I don't hate Bush. I think he's a good man; just a poor leader and not someone that is making decisions that I agree with.

FAIR ENOUGH...WISH YOU WOULD THINK ABOUT IT THOUGH...KERRY IS WEAK!...NOT A LEADER....Plus he said a curse word in Rolling Stone magazine!!!whoooooo, he's a real man....


Back at ya'.
Back at ya,

Zapper
post #99 of 343
I agree here with the beginning. It is absurd to hate. It is even more absurd to hate a country. You can disagree with a countries government, I do with just about everyone on the planet. I disagree with the media worldwide, there are a few exceptions. I firmly stand against any and all "global" whatever.
I have met people from all over the world. I have met people from England, Canada, Argentina, Cuba, Peurto Rico, France, Israel, Austrailia, Vietnam, China, Japan, Korea, India, Germany, Spain, etc. None of these people I can say I completely disliked. I may disagree with the rulers of their country but that is all.
For those who hate America, and Americans because of what the government does I feel sorry for you. These people have never met me or my family, friends, etc.
For those here who have served in the U.S. armed forces I slaute you for putting yourself in front of bullets, despite the blunderous descisions the brass, and government officials make on your behalf.
post #100 of 343
Quote:
Originally posted by zapper
I am very familiar with the geneva convention! What you fail to understand is that mistakes will be made and these brave men and women of the U.S. military may make an error in judgement. But don't you dare infer that these frivolous absurdities are torture! Humiliating yes, torture? uh...I don't think so. So, I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt and there are 150 soldiers not adhering to the Geneva Convention...While the other 130,000 + ARE! Give me a break!

What portion of the Geneva Convention are the terrorist adhering to? Please answer that one, I really want to know.

Further, WHO in the heck needs the U.N.? As far as I'm concerned it is a farce!

Look, our military COC is investigating these DISPICABLE acts and have been for some time.

How dare you typcast or try to impune the integrity of OUR troops who are risking their lives...SHAME ON YOU. Secondly, you have never been underfire have you? Yet you dare make a point about Bush? I very disapointed in you...

Like I said, under the right circumstances, I would have shot rock man too! You nor I don't know what steps were taken to disarm him prior to shooting him..

No the media weren't the perpatrators..Just the catylists for a shark feeding frenzy...What else is new. By blowing the lid off of this when asked to keep it quiet until we settled down the insurgents it put OUR BOYS and GIRLS at further RISK...Bad call once again by the Media who cares only about self preservation!

Limerickman, cool your jets....I blame the soldiers the handful out of hundreds of thousands that are doing good work...I blame the media for portraying that this is how every American Soldier Acts and for PUTTING OUR TROOPS AT RISK!

My friend, if you can't see "eye-to-eye" on that one then you are beyond help...

I can understand that you are embarrased by some of the stuff you spin on here and thus are afraid to be identified by your place of employment. I wasn't trying to get an address on you, I was just curious as to what orginization you worked for...

Oh, we don't feel guilty for being in an illegal war, you just want us to feel guilty for doing the right thing!
If I thought for one minute that all of the US armed forces acted in the way that those people have done in AG prison in Baghdad,
I would say so.
I never said that all US troops acted in this way.
What I did say was that the troops at this prison acted in a way that has brought grave dishonour upon the entire US army.
The actions of the few have tarnished the reputation of the many.
How few - we cannot quantify yet because we dont not the know the extent of this case - so we'll wait and see how many troops
are prosecuted by your goverment.
We'll see how committed your goverment is to cleaning up it's act.

Your COC has been covering this whole affair up since October 2003 - that's what your COC has been doing.
I watched the Senate hearing yesterday - and it was clearly stated that the Sec of Def and his people did not bother to inform the Senate Arms Committee of these investigations until after the publication of those photos.
THE POLITIICANS AT THE DoD ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ANSWERABLE TO THAT SENATE COMMITTEE.
The point being - if all of this was going on and the COC were
supposedly aware of it - why wasn't it brought to light by the COC
to DoD and to the Senate Committee ?
You see my guess is that the COC didn't know or didn't want to know about this issue and it's had was forced when these photos were disclosed.

I am not in the least bit embarrased by what I have posted here.
The fact of the matter is that lies and continous lying by the Bush Goverment has got the USA in to it's current mess.
Bush is the problem.
Bush hasn't got the brains to see that what he is doing is completely and utterly counter productive.
You know, I really do think that he is being manipulated by President Cheney and Co.
Bush simply hasn't got the mental capacity to make an informed
decision about anything.
He chose not to evaluate the weapons inspectors reports - he chose not to evaluate the threat caused by invading Iraq - he chose not to evaluate his unconditional support for Israel.

Bush listens to advice - he accepts that advice at face value and
then makes an order based on that advice.
He doesn't test, evaluate, verify - any advice given to him.
He was told repeatedly about the threat up to Sept 11th - and he ignored that advice.
He was told repeatedly about the lack of WMD and he ignored that advice too.
He ignored the advice that to discard the Palestinian roadmap
will prove diasterous.
He's a mouthpiece - that's about it.
And that is the real worry.
post #101 of 343
What portion of the Geneva Convention are the terrorist adhering to? Please answer that one, I really want to know.

Limerickman, I can understand your "opinion" as stated in your previous post but...I'm still waiting on this one....Surely with your media connections, you can share with us...can't you?
post #102 of 343
Quote:
Originally posted by zapper
What portion of the Geneva Convention are the terrorist adhering to? Please answer that one, I really want to know.

Limerickman, I can understand your "opinion" as stated in your previous post but...I'm still waiting on this one....Surely with your media connections, you can share with us...can't you?
Hmm,
You're being mischevious here, Zapper.
You know that the guerilla forces in Iraq are not signed up to the
Geneva Convention.
You know this.

Are you attempting to equate the fact that because ones enemies
is not complying to the GC - that this gives one carte blanche to
act despicably ?
America is a soverign country - it signed up to the GC.
It and it's forces are therefore compelled to adhere to those conventions.
Hard as this might be - there is a responsibility for soverign armies
to act humanely.
No one can say that the disclosure of photos at Abu Ghuraib depicting physical and psychological torture complies with the Geneva Convention.

It is curious - watching your Senate Arms Committee hearings - how your military commanders invoked the Geneva Convention when stating that their investigations against those who orchestrated and participated in those despicable acts are premised upon their breaking the Geneva Conventions.
It's a curious juxtaposition.
post #103 of 343
Quote:
Originally posted by limerickman
Hmm,
You're being mischevious here, Zapper.
You know that the guerilla forces in Iraq are not signed up to the
Geneva Convention.
You know this.

Are you attempting to equate the fact that because ones enemies
is not complying to the GC - that this gives one carte blanche to
act despicably ?
America is a soverign country - it signed up to the GC.
It and it's forces are therefore compelled to adhere to those conventions.
Hard as this might be - there is a responsibility for soverign armies
to act humanely.
No one can say that the disclosure of photos at Abu Ghuraib depicting physical and psychological torture complies with the Geneva Convention.

.
Lman, not being mischevious...I just wanted you to admit that though the treatment in these prisons by SOME of our troops is not in accordance with articles of the Geneva Convention, in comparison to what brutal destruction our ENEMY is dishing out there is NO COMPARISON!!!!!! But getting YOU to admit you are wrong or made a mistake is absurd ...eh 007?.

I would like you to look at two pictures side-by-side...

Picture One - One of our civilians mangled body hanging from a bridge.

Picture Two - One of the the Iraqi prisoners...Alive and well posing nude for a couple of sickos...

You tell me which one is worse Geneva Convention or not???

I agee we must treat our prisoners like human beings and keep them alive..But this is war and there will be casualties!
post #104 of 343
Quote:
Originally posted by zapper
Lman, not being mischevious...I just wanted you to admit that though the treatment in these prisons by SOME of our troops is not in accordance with articles of the Geneva Convention, in comparison to what brutal destruction our ENEMY is dishing out there is NO COMPARISON!!!!!! But getting YOU to admit you are wrong or made a mistake is absurd ...eh 007?.

I would like you to look at two pictures side-by-side...

Picture One - One of our civilians mangled body hanging from a bridge.

Picture Two - One of the the Iraqi prisoners...Alive and well posing nude for a couple of sickos...

You tell me which one is worse Geneva Convention or not???

I agee we must treat our prisoners like human beings and keep them alive..But this is war and there will be casualties!

I have never condoned the murder of those contractors - it was a
DESPICABLE act and it is wrong MORALLY, ETHICALLY AND LEGALLY.
However, what some of those troops did in that prison in Iraq
is also DESPICABLE, wrong MORALLY, ETHICALLY AND LEGALLY.

But we're supposed to be civilised people - we're supposed to be the "good guys" - what those troops did was wrong.
end of story.
post #105 of 343
Monday 10th May 2004 :
The British Minister for Defence : Mr.Geoff Hoon MP has just been interviewed by Jeremy Paxman :

JP : When did you first get notice of the ICRC (International Red Cross) report ?

GH : I only received a copy of an interim report - issued by ICRC
to Paul Bremer dated February 2004 - last week.

JP : So Bremer was presumably aware of these issues as far back as February - at the very least ?

GH : One could surmise this - yes.

JP : The ICRC and Amnesty International had informed both the
British Goverment and the US goverment of these grotesque
prison practices in the summer of 2003 - this was detailed in the ICRC report issued in February - the report clearly states that the ICRC told both sets of goverment that abuse was taking place a lot earlier than you infer - do you mean to tell me that you weren't advised of the ICRC and Amnesty International's
concerns ?

GH : The civil servant in question - the person who handled the file - did not forward a copy of this report to me until last week.
I am however assured that the ICRC report and it's contents were acted upon in February 2004 and that the practice of hooding prisoners, and physical torture had been terminated as
soon as we had sight of this.

JP : Do you mean to tell us that you - as Minister of Defence -
were unaware that the occupying forces in Iraq were systematically torturing prisoners - you are the Minister for Defence : and you expect us to believe that you don't know how
your army conducts itself ?
Are you now denying that the ICRC told you in summer 2003, that these grotesque practices were taking place ?
It's a simple question - Minister !

GH : I am not in Iraq every day and I cannot be aware of every single thing that happens in Iraq.

Seymour Hersh was then interviewed and he has confirmed that
a US MP brought a set of photographs and other proof to the US military authorities on 13th January 2004.
Hersh further confirmed that the Pentagon advised Rumsfeld of these practices on the 19th January 2004.
Hersh states that the coverup of this whole saga goes in to the heart of the Pentagon and that the responsibility for the systematic torture of Iraqi prisoners will be proven to reside with
the upper echelons of the US administration.
Hersh has said that the next few weeks will disclose more and more evidence of complicity between the Bush goverment and
the Pentagon concerning systematic torture.
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