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post #61 of 1671
Quote:
Originally posted by SLS
Sorry - I finally saw this one. I do not expect our presidents to be perfect. I do expect them to do what they feel is best for this country & not base everything off of polls. I prefer that people tell me the truth, not what they think I want to hear. I prefer them to not flip flop like a fish out of water to get to a centralist position which most presidential candidates do. I can think of only two people at the moment like that - Reagan & Bush.

Obviously you think that Bush is nothing but a screw-up but that is your opinion and I am not even going to try to bother arguing you about it. I will state that it took many years before Japan became a productive nation even with our rebuilding help. (About 30 to 40 years as I recall Just like civil rights and every other major change you need almost 2 generations before things stabilize out, attitudes really start to change, etc... Right now we are in two countries which we have liberated, where they were taught that American's are the Great Satan, the only good American is a dead one, etc... Amazingly I would say that only 5% feel that way & they are the main trouble makers. Unfortunately this is all that our news broadcasters want us to see as that is to them real news. I don't think any rational human being would say that either country is worse off now then they were. In another 40 years I think that History will also prove that statement is correct.
Ahhhh a refreshing voice in the mix...You make a very good point...Interesting that the only images the MEDIA can conjur up are those of these incarcerated criminals and terrorist and their "torture"... I havent' seen the images of our dead POW's from early war...or any of the good that we have done in Iraq...No, you won't see that...We should feel guilt man, guilt!!! We are the great Satan, oh and they will have you believe that Bush is the Anti-christ...
post #62 of 1671
Quote:
Originally posted by limerickman
More proof of the torture that the US forces are inflicting on the Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghuraib prison was provided to the members of the Senate Arms Committee today.

Approximately 1000 images were shown to the committee investigating the systematic torture and humiliation of inmates
at Abu Ghuraib.

Two senators stated on camera how disturbing these images are :
Senator Bill Nelson (Democrat) "I thought (before seeing these images) that they would be stomach turning - I was wrong.
These images are truly disgusting - and it makes me wonder just how far up the chain of command was authorisation given to this
disgusting behaviour. This behaviour was not random - it was organised and this is what really is troubling us "

Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell (Republican) "We view these images with the greatest sense of utter dismay. To think that one human being could do this to another human being is truly, truly shocking.
People engaged in oral and pentrative sexual conduct is depicted
in some of these images. In some of the images there were more than half a dozen people photgraphed.
I served in the airforce equivalent of the military police - and having seen these images, I am sorry to say that I am not proud to be an American"

Our friend Linndie England - using her best bayous english, today
adopted the Nuremburg (Nazi) defence when asked about her
conduct at Abu Ghuraib "I was only following orders" she crooked,
Indeed, Linndie.
The Nazi's used this defence when confronted with their crimes in
WW2.
Torture is lopping someones head off with a unsharpened knife very slowly so they feel every cut as they are slowly LOSING their LIFE... Torture, is being beaten, drug around the street while still alive....

If there was indeed Perverse Sexual acts peformed...Ok, I'll agree that was uncalled for...

But it is really sickening that those criminals are getting so much press and innocent civilians that are slowly executed or murdered do not...

As far as Linndie..She is a Liar...I didn't appreciate her smirk while she was slinging accusations..anyone could see through that act.

The bottom line...Most of the acts depicted was nothing more than psychological duress. you don't have to like it, I surely don't. However, extreme methods may have to be used in war..

Undoubtedly, It would be nice if info could be extracted by the letter of the law but at the end of the day, they will eventually go home ALIVE at some point that is more than you can say for Berg and others before him.

Additionally, my representative, Congressman Ed Schrock, saw those pictures and stated that MOST of the images were offensive and humiliating but hardly torture... Some of the comments by either party may be politically motivated..duh!!!

NAZI's???indeed..Um a solider that poses with naked prisoners is compared to a NAZI.. I do not condone her behavior yet the BAD GUYS who are executing innocent people are just forgotten????...This is disgusting!
post #63 of 1671
Zapper, the definition of torture may well cover lopping somone's head off. But it also covers a broad array of inhumane acts, which are not rated on a scale of 1-10, as in a decapitation scores a 10 and being sodomized with a glow stick, or being forced to fellate another man, or being beaten to death in a priso,n scores only a 5.

You say all those people (Iraqi) were criminals and terrorists -- do you know this? Were they tried and convicted?

These were prisoners of war, and you ought to read the Geneva Convention, easy to find on the web.

The actions of those soldiers were deplorable and it sounds like you think the military has some right to retaliate for Ammerican deaths by torturing POW's. And that kind of treatment of Iraq citizens is only going to make the population even more anti-american.

As for whether or not there was "indeed Perverse Sexual Acts performed", obviously there were, it is in the photos.

And "humiliation" of POW's is covered in the Geneva Convention, it is a form of torture and can be severely damaging. And how do we know that worse things were not happening that there are no pictures of? How many left in body bags after being beaten to death or worse?

Just tell me, if we saw pictures of our GI's being treated that way, would we think it was justified? Obviously not. The US army has the heavy responsibility of setting an example for the rest of the world. Is this the right one?
post #64 of 1671
An eye for an eye and everyone goes blind....

It`s about time someone took responsibility for their own decisions/actions, and instead of perpetuating the cycle, stopped it dead in its tracks.
post #65 of 1671
Quote:
Originally posted by less'go
Zapper, the definition of torture may well cover lopping somone's head off. But it also covers a broad array of inhumane acts, which are not rated on a scale of 1-10, as in a decapitation scores a 10 and being sodomized with a glow stick, or being forced to fellate another man, or being beaten to death in a priso,n scores only a 5.

You say all those people (Iraqi) were criminals and terrorists -- do you know this? Were they tried and convicted?

These were prisoners of war, and you ought to read the Geneva Convention, easy to find on the web.

The actions of those soldiers were deplorable and it sounds like you think the military has some right to retaliate for Ammerican deaths by torturing POW's. And that kind of treatment of Iraq citizens is only going to make the population even more anti-american.

As for whether or not there was "indeed Perverse Sexual Acts performed", obviously there were, it is in the photos.

And "humiliation" of POW's is covered in the Geneva Convention, it is a form of torture and can be severely damaging. And how do we know that worse things were not happening that there are no pictures of? How many left in body bags after being beaten to death or worse?

Just tell me, if we saw pictures of our GI's being treated that way, would we think it was justified? Obviously not. The US army has the heavy responsibility of setting an example for the rest of the world. Is this the right one?
LESS'GO,

You need not lecture me on the Geneva Convention as it is clearyly stamped "Geneva Convention Catagory II" on the back of my ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY ID CARD and I am well aware of it in its entirety!

If before you decided to respond, you had read my posts in their entirety instead of selecting fragaments and putting your own spin on them like so many like to do, you could objectively comprehend my point.

For the record, there is evidence of our GI's being treated worse...However, you find that on CNN!!! Second, lets get one thing clear...I never said, I condoned any of it...But this isn't a perfect world and this isn't a perfect war. I just grow tired of those of you who display such outrage over this yet, care not what has happed our military and our citizens!

I grow tired of ONE Sided media coverage..I have seen it first hand!

And yes, I am bound by the articles of the geneva convention...BUT, grow tired and frustrated like many americans with the rest of the world wanting to hold us to those principles yet say nothing when OUR ENEMIES DO NOT!!! I grow tired when people want to attack the integrity of our soldiers when the many acts of good will they display go un noticed!

Finally, I grow tired of seeing these images morning, noon and night yet I have yet to see the same repetition of images of the soldier who under enemy fire saved an IRAQI woman by pulling her from a bridge, or the images of 4 innocent civilians being mutilated and put on PUBLIC display, the images of systematic barbaric executions...

Yes, brutality indeed...the MEDIA calls it a BEHEADING...it was not!!!! Beheadings are quick and done with a sharp instrument...Cattle get treated better than Mr. Berg for example... But, you won't see postings condemming or complaining about his treatment, about the treatment 4 american civlians who were killed and mutilated or any other such travesty.. All we will hear from are "tree huggers" and other activists who live in a world of make beleive, where everyone gets along and no one is evil...

"Some may say I am a dreamer"...J. Lennon had it right...Dream on!
post #66 of 1671
"Tree huggers?" Puh-lease. And if you truly are familiar with the Geneva Convention you would know that humiliation of POW's is strictly forbidden. The US Army must conduct itself accordingly. What crimes have been committed by some Iraqi citizens does not change that.

And who exactly do you want me to complain to about poor Berg, or the four civilians who were killed? We're already at war with the country, there's not much more I can do. I'm not going to go screaming "Vengeance, Vengeance!". I am sorry to hear of anyone's death, especially in such awful circumstances.

I won't waste any more time arguing with you, I feel your response was highly flammatory attack but you present no new information or response. You sound like Limaugh carrying on about the "liberal one sided media".

ANd CNN? I get my news from CNN and a wide range of sources, not just CNN and Fox News (Help me, mama!).

I don't think you actually did much more than skim over my last post, decide I'm a wacko tree-hugging liberal idiot, and respond accordingly.

I'm outta' here...
post #67 of 1671
Quote:
Originally posted by less'go
When an Iraqi soldier, man, woman, child, is wrongfully killed, too many people say "Hey, that's just how it goes, this is war."
You are incorrect...how can you compare Iraqi soldier, enemy combatant with women and children??? Well in some very rare cases, yes they may take up arms and be a combatant. But I assume you are talking about innocent woman and children who just trying to live their daily life in peace…So, being a father, I can unequivocally say that woman and children that are killed by mistake or otherwise is sad and unacceptable indeed. But, lets not forget that...

A: Many of these terrorist hide behind women and children and symbols of religious worth, while taking "pot shots" at our Children in uniform!

B. Some and I repeat some,,,, women and children have been trained in the use of an AK-47 or may strap bombs on themselves , become combatants and blow up innocent women and children themselves...

So, that I am not misquoted again....I DO NOT CONDONE THE KILLING OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS NOR DO I CONDONE THE KILLING OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN!

Unfortunate yes! Does it make my stomach turn...Yes! However, WE DO NOT ACTIVELY SEEK OUT women and children to kill...

But I think they are better off than the 300,000 bodies that have been dug up from shallow graves from Sadaams regime...

Finally, I had a very close friend and comrade die and another suffer from a collapsed lung during the bombing of the COLE. I knew 6 good "kids" that died at the Pentagon. Whether you want to face it or not, we need to take the fight to them and terrorist exist in Iraq. WE are doing Good deeds in Iraq, its a shame that all one wants to focus on is the few improprieties. Mostly thoughts like these initiate from Democrats who just can’t wait to get back into office, American civilians who have moved abroad and do not live in our Country anymore or individuals from other nations who have no stake in OUR country…So, the bottom line of this thread is BUSH or KERRY…

Personally, hearing from individuals who either can’t participate in OUR election bring little to the table…Obviously, our detractors want Kerry in office for he would be a pushover….
post #68 of 1671
"Personally, hearing from individuals who either can’t participate in OUR election bring little to the table…"

Sorry, I just have to respond to one more little post, here. I very much can and will participate in the upcoming elections, I don't know why I would not.

Secondly, the terrorists involved in the events of 9-11 were linked to Osama Bin Laden, not to Iraq and Sadaam Hussein. The media and politicians wrapped Afghanistan and Iraq into one big ball to justify this war.

Ok, now I really and truly am outta here!
post #69 of 1671
Quote:
Originally posted by less'go
"Tree huggers?" Puh-lease. And if you truly are familiar with the Geneva Convention you would know that humiliation of POW's is strictly forbidden. The US Army must conduct itself accordingly. What crimes have been committed by some Iraqi citizens does not change that.

And who exactly do you want me to complain to about poor Berg, or the four civilians who were killed? We're already at war with the country, there's not much more I can do. I'm not going to go screaming "Vengeance, Vengeance!". I am sorry to hear of anyone's death, especially in such awful circumstances.

I won't waste any more time arguing with you, I feel your response was highly flammatory attack but you present no new information or response. You sound like Limaugh carrying on about the "liberal one sided media".

ANd CNN? I get my news from CNN and a wide range of sources, not just CNN and Fox News (Help me, mama!).

I don't think you actually did much more than skim over my last post, decide I'm a wacko tree-hugging liberal idiot, and respond accordingly.

I'm outta' here...
Typical Leftist response...Trying to make me feel guilty for speaking my opinion yet, your rant was entirely inflamatory...no matter...you are not reading for I am not screaming for vengeance, just coverage, some sort of emotion of outrage with the same intensity that I see displayed over these Prison photo's.

I am not calling for executions...just coverage..If you can't see that ....

The media is onesided...for if it were not, you would see continuous coverage of the good going on in Iraq...but you will not see it, just "doom and gloom"...If you can't draw that simple conclusion then....

Oh yes, I work for Rush....How is Al Franken doing these days?
post #70 of 1671
Quote:
Originally posted by less'go
"Personally, hearing from individuals who either can’t participate in OUR election bring little to the table…"

Sorry, I just have to respond to one more little post, here. I very much can and will participate in the upcoming elections, I don't know why I would not.

Secondly, the terrorists involved in the events of 9-11 were linked to Osama Bin Laden, not to Iraq and Sadaam Hussein. The media and politicians wrapped Afghanistan and Iraq into one big ball to justify this war.

Ok, now I really and truly am outta here!
Just for the record...I submitted that post prior to reviewing it one last time...My thought was not complete...

Should have read..."Personally, hearing from individuals who either can't participate in OUR election OR do not LIVE in our country (unless made to do so in the armed services) bring little to the table...My opinion as a permanent citizen/particpant...So, don't hate me for my opinon. I don't hate you for yours...

Secondly, there are terrorist in Iraq...Iraq is better off so is Afganistan. Clinton, stated that Iraq had WMD's...Hindsight is great...EIEI...O

Sorry to see you go...but for the record, I'm curious as to why most of this thread concerns the treatment of our prisoners and not why Kerry or Bush is the better candidate... There is more to this election than photographs of abuse....

So, since you have left the "building"...I assume that you won't be voting for Bush...

Lastly, since it appears that those who disagree with me, seem to think because my views differ from theirs that I am somehow a "bad" person, not rational..war monger etc......Another typical Liberal Tactic...

Less'go, I do not wish ill will upon anyone. I wish we all could live in peace. But, it is just not possible... You can wish all you want but it won't happen. No matter if it is Kerry or Bush, there will be people out there that do not behave like human beings...Terrorism whether you believe it exist in Iraq or not..does indeed exist. Terrorist need to be eliminated...Period!

All I want is equal coverage.. that is the theme of my posts...If you took the time to understand what I have been saying all along prior to lecturing me on the Geneva Convention. You could be objective enough to acknowledge that... rather than making a few provocotive comments, lecture me on what I already know then leave in a huff...

Lastly, I did not call you a tree hugger...but stated that you hear a grunch from that type of activist(ok yes, it was a label) ....If you feel that I was referring to you in particular..you are mistaken...I have been very careful not to single anyone out since there are a lot of sensative people around.
post #71 of 1671
Quote:
Originally posted by SLS
Sorry - I finally saw this one. I do not expect our presidents to be perfect. I do expect them to do what they feel is best for this country & not base everything off of polls. I prefer that people tell me the truth, not what they think I want to hear. I prefer them to not flip flop like a fish out of water to get to a centralist position which most presidential candidates do. I can think of only two people at the moment like that - Reagan & Bush.

Obviously you think that Bush is nothing but a screw-up but that is your opinion and I am not even going to try to bother arguing you about it. I will state that it took many years before Japan became a productive nation even with our rebuilding help. (About 30 to 40 years as I recall Just like civil rights and every other major change you need almost 2 generations before things stabilize out, attitudes really start to change, etc... Right now we are in two countries which we have liberated, where they were taught that American's are the Great Satan, the only good American is a dead one, etc... Amazingly I would say that only 5% feel that way & they are the main trouble makers. Unfortunately this is all that our news broadcasters want us to see as that is to them real news. I don't think any rational human being would say that either country is worse off now then they were. In another 40 years I think that History will also prove that statement is correct.
SLS:Quote

“Obviously you think that Bush is nothing but a screw-up but that is your opinion and I am not even going to try to bother arguing you about it. I will state that it took many years before Japan became a productive nation even with our rebuilding help. (About 30 to 40 years as I recall Just like civil rights and every other major change you need almost 2 generations before things stabilize out, attitudes really start to change, etc... Right now we are in two countries which we have liberated, where they were taught that American's are the Great Satan, the only good American is a dead one, etc... Amazingly I would say that only 5% feel that way & they are the main trouble makers. Unfortunately this is all that our news broadcasters want us to see as that is to them real news. I don't think any rational human being would say that either country is worse off now then they were. In another 40 years I think that History will also prove that statement is correct.”

I cannot agree with the view that you have expressed here.

You are making some fundamental assumptions here which are wrong.
The analogy to WW2 and Japan pertains to a situation where sovereign nations went to war against each other.

Iraq and Afghanistan are fundamentally different to WW2.
The invasion of Afghanistan – in my opinion – was justified in order to route out the infrastructure of Al Quaeda.
I can understand and agree with the motives of the US invasion of Afghanistan.
Afghanistan harboured the forces of Al Quaeda.

The invasion of Iraq – in my opinion – is wrong.
No proof has ever been produced that Iraq had anything to do with Al Quaeda.
No proof has ever been produced to show that Iraq was ever a threat to the USA.
We still don’t know why the USA invaded Iraq.
All of the excuses to justify this war, by the USA, have turned out to be excuses of expediency (WMD’s, possible nuclear threat, support for Al Quaeda etc).

Despite the US invasion of these countries – they are not, to use your words “liberated” (whatever liberated might mean).
90% of Afghanistan is controlled by warlords and remnants of the Taliban.
Iraq is in utter turmoil – as you know.
In addition, you state that “where they were taught that American's are the Great Satan”.
I would like to remind you that Iraq was a secular society under Saddam.
The majority of people there are university degree educated people.
The attitude where the USA is regarded as the Great Satan is based in societies in the Middle and Far East where there is a more fundamentalist religious view such as Saudi Arabia, Iran.
To try to apply the same outlook upon the Iraqi people is false : the Iraqi people are a well informed people.
Iraq was the cradle of civilization (where writing was first invented) in the ancient world.

What is of real concern to me is that a sophisticated, educated race of people like the Iraqi’s now regard the USA as oppressors rather than liberators.
post #72 of 1671
The issue of the US involvment in Iraq and the systemic humiliation and torture of Iraqi prisoners is contrary to the Geneva
Conventions.
Articles 4 to 44, specifically state how a prisoner MUST be treated
by the Detaining (USA, in this case) Power.
Articles 4 to 44 were broken under the Geneva Convention - the proof is in the photographs supplied by an MP on 13th January
2004 to the relevant authorities.
It must be noted that both Amnesty International and the International Conference of the Red Cross contacted the US goverment in summer 2003 to complain about the treatment of
prisoners throughout Iraq.

Other articles covering the status of prisoners :
Article 99 :
No moral or physical coercion may be exerted on a prisoner of war in order to induce him to admit himself guilty of the act of which he is accused.

The systemic torture and humiliation by the occupying US forces
casts a light on to what may well be going on at Guantanemo.
The unwillingness of the Bush Goverment to act on the reports of systematic torture and humiliation in summer 2003, in Iraq, smacks of another cover up.

Ex-Pentagon Official Larry Diamond has stated that the Pentagon
issued an instruction to the US forces in Iraq to "do whatever is necessary" to extract information from prisoners held in Iraq.

The issue of the imprisonment of thousands of innocent Iraqi's
also contravenes the Geneva Conventions.
The US Sate Dept has informed the media that it would compensate those who had been illegally imprisoned.

The terrible death of Michael Berg and the systematic brutal torture and humiliation of Iraqi's are not mutually exclusive.
The mistreatment of the the Iraqi people prompted others to execute Michael Berg.
BOTH ISSUES ARE WRONG - MORALLY,ETHICALLY,LEGALLY.

However, the USA and it's goverment are a sovereign state.
The US goverment purports to be democratic and to uphold the principles of democracy.
It is sufficient for Linndi England to use the Nazi defence of "I was only carrying out orders".
Deocracy demands higher standards than this.
Whether the US forces were instructed or not to carry out the systematic torture and humiliation, is not what is at issue here.
What is at issue is that the systematic torture and humiliation took place.
Those soldiers could, under the rules and regulations of their
command, have chosen not to carry out an order.
(under military law - if a soldier is given an order which he/she considers to be illegal - he/she is compelled to instruct his commanding officer as to the illegality of that order and to refuse,
using this provision, to execute this order).

FINALLY - GEORGE BUSH IS VISITING IRELAND ON JUNE 25TH 2004.
IF YOU ARE IN DUBLIN ON THAT DAY - I WISH TO INVITE YOU TO ATTEND A MASS DEMONSTRATION TO BE HELD AT 12.00PM
IN CENTRAL DUBLIN OBJECTING TO THE VIST OF THE "WAR PRESIDENT"
post #73 of 1671
Quote:
Originally posted by Beastt
Thank you for your concern but I'm really not terribly interested that you may think my statement lacks the mark of intellect.

I would think it obvious that most would understand that the statement, "ANYONE but Bush", would apply only to those candidates running for the office. I simply don't have a strong preference either way as long as the country isn't subjected to another 4-years of Bush. I do feel strongly that any of the other candidates running for the office, would do a much better job.

If you want reasons, then I'll give you a rather broad one; Bush isn't an American. He was born here and holds citizenship but it takes more than that to be an American. You have to hold American values and ideals above the buzz-words like, "security", "saftey", "terrorism", etc. Bush shows himself to be diametrically opposed to the standards that defined this country and as such, shows himself to be other than American at heart. It would be difficult for anyone to blacken the name of the United States to a further degree than he already has.

If you find any arrogance in my opening statement of disinterest, then you know how your comments were perceived.

Arrogance and ignorance! What a combination.

You haven't made your case. All you have done is mindlessly yammer that you don't like Bush. Fine, but your reasons are indicative of gross immaturity and lack of knowledge about much of anything, or, perhaps, like many anti-conservative leftists, you are letting hatred color your judgement.
post #74 of 1671
Quote:
Originally posted by limerickman
Bush's foreign policy failures :

1.Capturing BinLaden : failed
2.Capturing Mullah Omar : failed
3.Creating Democracy in Afghanistan : failed
4.Creating Deocracy in Iraq : failed.
5. Acting on reliable intelligence reports prior to 11th September
2001 : failed.

Other notable Bush policy errors :
Anatagonised the majority of EU nations - ignored or vetoed the UN - ignored or vetoed the Kyoto Treaty

Bush's economic policy :
1 :The value of the US Dollar has fallen by 35% since 2000.
2 : Nasdaq and Dow Jones indexes have collapsed against their
2000 values (DOW JONES was trading at above 10k and the
Nasdaq was above 4k).
3 : US budget 2000 showed the USA in surplus to 200 billion
US budget deficit at April 2004 is 500 billion dollars and
growing.
4 : US employment actually contracted in the years 2001 - 2003.
Antagonizing the UN and the EU, who either hate America or are insanely jealous of our wealth and power? Who gives a rat's patoot about a bunch of third-world never-wases and a European Continent filled with has-beens like Germany and France who are jealous of our position in the world.

The economy is booming, unemployment is lower today than it was in the 1970's, 1980's, or 1990's. Even the much maligned manufacturing segment is taking off. In case you haven't noticed, the market is above 10,000 and the NASDAQ is also up, rebounding from the tech-bubble bursting in the late 1990's, the recession that started under Clinton's policies, and 9-11. Were not for the tax cuts, Clinton's recession would be continuing today.

The dollar was intentionally depressed to make U.S. goods cheaper on foreign markets, making them more appealing and easier to sell. No big deal.

In fact, none of your charges are anything worth bothering about. Bin Laden and Omar are non-issues. Democracy cannot be built in a day so your charges about Afghanistan and Iraq are simple-minded at best.

The intelligence about WMD was correct. 100% correct. In case you have had your head stuck in the sand, and from your wild pronouncements and yammering, it is obvious you have, check out some of the reporting by Syrians and Israelis that know exactly where Saddam's biological and chemical WMDs are buried in Syria.

All in all, limerickman, your response teeters between the pathetic and the laughable.
post #75 of 1671
Quote:
Originally posted by limerickman
Bush's foreign policy failures :

1.Capturing BinLaden : failed
2.Capturing Mullah Omar : failed
3.Creating Democracy in Afghanistan : failed
4.Creating Deocracy in Iraq : failed.
5. Acting on reliable intelligence reports prior to 11th September
2001 : failed.

Other notable Bush policy errors :
Anatagonised the majority of EU nations - ignored or vetoed the UN - ignored or vetoed the Kyoto Treaty

Bush's economic policy :
1 :The value of the US Dollar has fallen by 35% since 2000.
2 : Nasdaq and Dow Jones indexes have collapsed against their
2000 values (DOW JONES was trading at above 10k and the
Nasdaq was above 4k).
3 : US budget 2000 showed the USA in surplus to 200 billion
US budget deficit at April 2004 is 500 billion dollars and
growing.
4 : US employment actually contracted in the years 2001 - 2003.
Antagonizing the UN and the EU, who either hate America or are insanely jealous of our wealth and power? Who gives a rat's patoot about a bunch of third-world never-wases and a European Continent filled with has-beens like Germany and France who are jealous of our position in the world.

The economy is booming, unemployment is lower today than it was in the 1970's, 1980's, or 1990's. Even the much maligned manufacturing segment is taking off. In case you haven't noticed, the market is above 10,000 and the NASDAQ is also up, rebounding from the tech-bubble bursting in the late 1990's, the recession that started under Clinton's policies, and 9-11. Were not for the tax cuts, Clinton's recession would be continuing today.

The dollar was intentionally depressed to make U.S. goods cheaper on foreign markets, making them more appealing and easier to sell. No big deal.

In fact, none of your charges are anything worth bothering about. Bin Laden and Omar are non-issues. Democracy cannot be built in a day so your charges about Afghanistan and Iraq are simple-minded at best.

The intelligence about WMD was correct. 100% correct. In case you have had your head stuck in the sand, and from your wild pronouncements and yammering, it is obvious you have, check out some of the reporting by Syrians and Israelis that know exactly where Saddam's biological and chemical WMDs are buried in Syria.

All in all, limerickman, your response teeters between the pathetic and the laughable.
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