Urgent question re: road bikes and flats

Keith Akula writes:

> Hi, my girlfriend has been riding my road bike (Specialized Sequoia)
> and recently she has been getting lots of flats on the rear tube.
> I've replaced the tubes with new ones (various brands, Bontrager,
> Specialized, even Slime) but the tires still go flat at the end of
> the day. I consistently fill them with the right amount of air for
> road tires. I've also tried different rims/wheelsets but the
> problem still occurs. I've also replaced the tires themselves (went
> through Hutchinsons, Michelins, Armadillos) to no avail.

You didn't say what sort of leaks/holes you found in the inner tube.
I suspect you may even have a thorn or two, still in the tire. This
is a classic type of repeating leak if the thorn is just long enough
to penetrate the tube.

Run your thumb around the inside of the tire to find the culprit.
Don't worry, you won't cut your thumb. In fact, unless you are
careful, you will run right past that little whisker of a thorn.

If this occurred on different wheels, then maybe you need to look how
close to the edge of the road the bicycle is ridden and whether
puncture vine grows on that route.

http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0801+0392
http://www.barbwired.com/andy/PunctureVine/
http://www.or.blm.gov/Prineville/weed/puncture.htm
http://www.naturesongs.com/vvplants/puncturevine.html
http://tinyurl.com/d0xo
http://www.cwma.org/puncturevine.html

[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:

> Keith Akula writes:
>
>
>>Hi, my girlfriend has been riding my road bike (Specialized Sequoia)
>>and recently she has been getting lots of flats on the rear tube.
>>I've replaced the tubes with new ones (various brands, Bontrager,
>>Specialized, even Slime) but the tires still go flat at the end of
>>the day. I consistently fill them with the right amount of air for
>>road tires. I've also tried different rims/wheelsets but the
>>problem still occurs. I've also replaced the tires themselves (went
>>through Hutchinsons, Michelins, Armadillos) to no avail.
>
>
> You didn't say what sort of leaks/holes you found in the inner tube.
> I suspect you may even have a thorn or two, still in the tire. This
> is a classic type of repeating leak if the thorn is just long enough
> to penetrate the tube.
>
> Run your thumb around the inside of the tire to find the culprit.
> Don't worry, you won't cut your thumb. In fact, unless you are
> careful, you will run right past that little whisker of a thorn.
>
> If this occurred on different wheels, then maybe you need to look how
> close to the edge of the road the bicycle is ridden and whether
> puncture vine grows on that route.
>
> http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0801+0392
> http://www.barbwired.com/andy/PunctureVine/
> http://www.or.blm.gov/Prineville/weed/puncture.htm
> http://www.naturesongs.com/vvplants/puncturevine.html
> http://tinyurl.com/d0xo
> http://www.cwma.org/puncturevine.html
>
> [email protected]

A ball of cotton run around the inside of the tire will snag on thorn
points that your thumb might not feel.

Also check integrity of rim tape.

--
My bike blog:
http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

Also check to make sure you are not tightening the nut on the outside of the
tube stem. You can get rid of it once you inflate teh tube. By leaving it on
may cause a leak at the valve stem and rim.

The suggestion prvious to this is called the blood test. Run your least
favorite fingure inside the tire or along the rim. If you bleed, that is the
culprit.

Diablo Scott writes:

>> You didn't say what sort of leaks/holes you found in the inner
>> tube. I suspect you may even have a thorn or two, still in the
>> tire. This is a classic type of repeating leak if the thorn is
>> just long enough to penetrate the tube.

>> Run your thumb around the inside of the tire to find the culprit.
>> Don't worry, you won't cut your thumb. In fact, unless you are
>> careful, you will run right past that little whisker of a thorn.

>> If this occurred on different wheels, then maybe you need to look
>> how close to the edge of the road the bicycle is ridden and whether
>> puncture vine grows on that route.

http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0801+0392
http://www.barbwired.com/andy/PunctureVine/
http://www.or.blm.gov/Prineville/weed/puncture.htm
http://www.naturesongs.com/vvplants/puncturevine.html
http://tinyurl.com/d0xo
http://www.cwma.org/puncturevine.html

> A ball of cotton run around the inside of the tire will snag on
> thorn points that your thumb might not feel.

If you understand the problem then the thumb is good enough, and it is
usually more readily at hand than a ball of cotton.

> Also check integrity of rim tape.

That type of flat is obvious. Get to know you plants, especially
those that grow along the road. I find that people most afflicted
with poison oak are often people who have no idea how the plant looks.
The same often goes for the thorn victims.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]

Greg Schindler writes:

> Also check to make sure you are not tightening the nut on the
> outside of the tube stem. You can get rid of it once you inflate
> teh tube. By leaving it on may cause a leak at the valve stem and
> rim.

> The suggestion prvious to this is called the blood test. Run your
> least favorite fingure inside the tire or along the rim. If you
> bleed, that is the culprit.

OH! What additional myth and lore lies behind this advice. If you
believe these, then you have big voodoo yet to come. Bicycling is no
different from many religions. There are parables and historic tales
to be learned and believed.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:57:05 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:

> Greg Schindler writes:
>
>> Also check to make sure you are not tightening the nut on the
>> outside of the tube stem. You can get rid of it once you inflate
>> teh tube. By leaving it on may cause a leak at the valve stem and
>> rim.
>
>> The suggestion prvious to this is called the blood test. Run your
>> least favorite fingure inside the tire or along the rim. If you
>> bleed, that is the culprit.
>
> OH! What additional myth and lore lies behind this advice. If you
> believe these, then you have big voodoo yet to come. Bicycling is no
> different from many religions. There are parables and historic tales
> to be learned and believed.
>
> Jobst Brandt
> [email protected]
>
>
Along the lines of flat prevention, does anyone know of a near bulletproof
tire, either 700 x 25 of 26" x 1.75", or of an insert (preferably metal)
to
line the inside of the tire? I have been getting a lot of flats on my 26"
x
1.75" tires even with the extra thick thorn resistant tubes. The thorns
around here have no respect for my tires. This part of California has some
weeds that have thorns in the shape of those anti-tank barriers from WWII,
or
what the police may throw on the road to stop a speeding getaway. The metal
things are also designed to be dumped from the rear of some battle hardened
rich guys cars to stop pursuers. If anyone knows what I mean and where to
get
some metal like this I would love to know. About 2 months ago I had about
ten
holes in a tube from getting run off the road by some teenagers into some
thistles. Weight is not an issue with me since it just means more exercise
but I hate having to walk into phone range to call someone to come and get
me. I am thinking along the lines of that metal bailing wire that could be
formed into a circle of just the right size to fit into a tire snuggly and
not pinch the tube. Rubber coated wire would be good too.
Anyone?
Bill Baka


--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:26:40 -0700, Bill Baka wrote:

> Along the lines of flat prevention, does anyone know of a near bulletproof
> tire, either 700 x 25 of 26" x 1.75", or of an insert (preferably metal)
> to
> line the inside of the tire? I have been getting a lot of flats on my 26"
> x
> 1.75" tires even with the extra thick thorn resistant tubes. The thorns
> around here have no respect for my tires. This part of California has some
> weeds that have thorns in the shape of those anti-tank barriers from WWII,

These are called goathead thorns (they actually look more like a
triceratops head, but...), and are a plague throughout the West.

The best advice is to not ride over them. I don't believe you really want
a metal tire liner; it would probably cause more flats than it prevented.
You may also be tempted by airless tires, but those are not a good idea,
either. You can do somewhat better with mountain bike tires that have a
very aggressive tread, along with a tire liner. The idea is to get so
much material between the road and the tube that the thorn doesn't get all
the way through. But some of them will still work their way in no matter
what.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is
_`\(,_ | not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant.
(_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:08:58 -0400, David L. Johnson
<[email protected]> wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:26:40 -0700, Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> Along the lines of flat prevention, does anyone know of a near
>> bulletproof
>> tire, either 700 x 25 of 26" x 1.75", or of an insert (preferably metal)
>> to
>> line the inside of the tire? I have been getting a lot of flats on my
>> 26"
>> x
>> 1.75" tires even with the extra thick thorn resistant tubes. The thorns
>> around here have no respect for my tires. This part of California has
>> some
>> weeds that have thorns in the shape of those anti-tank barriers from
>> WWII,
>
> These are called goathead thorns (they actually look more like a
> triceratops head, but...), and are a plague throughout the West.

Goathead thorns, huh? They are definitely a plague.
>
> The best advice is to not ride over them.

Good idea but sometimes they hide under harmless looking foxtails
(which only get stuck in my feet) or there are so damn many of
them in a patch I can't avoid them on a high speed downhill
dirt run.

I don't believe you really
> want
> a metal tire liner; it would probably cause more flats than it prevented.

How so?

> You may also be tempted by airless tires, but those are not a good idea,
> either.

I have seen those and immediately walked away.

You can do somewhat better with mountain bike tires that have a
> very aggressive tread, along with a tire liner.

I had very aggressive mountain tires and found that there is almost no
material between the knobby parts. They may look impressive but they suck
when you bend the tire and look at how much material there isn't, where
it should be.

The idea is to get so
> much material between the road and the tube that the thorn doesn't get
> all
> the way through. But some of them will still work their way in no matter
> what.
>
The best thing I have so far is the 26" x 1.75" mountain/road tires that
have a straight line all around the center of the tire for lower rolling
resistance. These also have mostly thick tread with what appears like
auto tire water channel grooves. These I got at an auto parts store since
neither of my LBS stores had anything to compare. Nice 700 sized tires but
not much in the 26" or 27" category for some reason. I also have the
thickest
available tubes (that I know of) and these damn thorns still make it
through.
Sometimes I have ridden home with the thorns in place and then once home
start
pulling them out, Hiss, Hisssss, more Hissses. I came home with over a
dozen
thorns in my front tire one time and have learned to use small electronics
sized wire cutters to pull them out rather than get blood all over the
tire.
I did see an airless tube last week while escorting one of my grandkids
through Wal-Mart but it looked like a joke that if installed would be the
equivalent of riding on a 15 PSI semi-flat tire. Every tire I have seen
lately has been made in China (usually Kenda(sp?)) and always made maximum
cheap. I have heard of Michelins but have not had the chance to pick one
up and examine it. These days I sort of want to examine a tire first hand
before laying out the money. I am not a Noob since I have been riding since
1952 (picked up by the police for riding a tricycle on the highway at 3
years old).
Downhill, feet off the pedals, at about 25 MPH, major fun for a 3 year old.
The police just rode behind me until I ran out of momentum then got out and
walked up to me, scratching their heads in amazement.
I may have made the local paper that year, but the police learned to watch
out for me as I always rode too far, on 3 wheels or 2.
Bill Baka


--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Bill Baka wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:08:58 -0400, David L. Johnson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:26:40 -0700, Bill Baka wrote:
>>
>>> Along the lines of flat prevention, does anyone know of a near
>>> bulletproof
>>> tire, either 700 x 25 of 26" x 1.75", or of an insert (preferably metal)
>>> to
>>> line the inside of the tire? I have been getting a lot of flats on my
>>> 26"
>>> x
>>> 1.75" tires even with the extra thick thorn resistant tubes. The thorns
>>> around here have no respect for my tires. This part of California has
>>> some
>>> weeds that have thorns in the shape of those anti-tank barriers from
>>> WWII,
>>
>>
>> These are called goathead thorns (they actually look more like a
>> triceratops head, but...), and are a plague throughout the West.
>
>
> Goathead thorns, huh? They are definitely a plague.
>
>>
>> The best advice is to not ride over them.
>
>
> Good idea but sometimes they hide under harmless looking foxtails
> (which only get stuck in my feet) or there are so damn many of
> them in a patch I can't avoid them on a high speed downhill
> dirt run.
>
> I don't believe you really
>
>> want
>> a metal tire liner; it would probably cause more flats than it prevented.
>
>
> How so?
>
>> You may also be tempted by airless tires, but those are not a good idea,
>> either.
>
>
> I have seen those and immediately walked away.
>
> You can do somewhat better with mountain bike tires that have a
>
>> very aggressive tread, along with a tire liner.
>
>
> I had very aggressive mountain tires and found that there is almost no
> material between the knobby parts. They may look impressive but they suck
> when you bend the tire and look at how much material there isn't, where
> it should be.
>
> The idea is to get so
>
>> much material between the road and the tube that the thorn doesn't get
>> all
>> the way through. But some of them will still work their way in no matter
>> what.
>>
> The best thing I have so far is the 26" x 1.75" mountain/road tires that
> have a straight line all around the center of the tire for lower rolling
> resistance. These also have mostly thick tread with what appears like
> auto tire water channel grooves. These I got at an auto parts store since
> neither of my LBS stores had anything to compare. Nice 700 sized tires but
> not much in the 26" or 27" category for some reason. I also have the
> thickest
> available tubes (that I know of) and these damn thorns still make it
> through.
> Sometimes I have ridden home with the thorns in place and then once home
> start
> pulling them out, Hiss, Hisssss, more Hissses. I came home with over a
> dozen
> thorns in my front tire one time and have learned to use small electronics
> sized wire cutters to pull them out rather than get blood all over the
> tire.
> I did see an airless tube last week while escorting one of my grandkids
> through Wal-Mart but it looked like a joke that if installed would be the
> equivalent of riding on a 15 PSI semi-flat tire. Every tire I have seen
> lately has been made in China (usually Kenda(sp?)) and always made maximum
> cheap. I have heard of Michelins but have not had the chance to pick one
> up and examine it. These days I sort of want to examine a tire first hand
> before laying out the money. I am not a Noob since I have been riding since
> 1952 (picked up by the police for riding a tricycle on the highway at 3
> years old).
> Downhill, feet off the pedals, at about 25 MPH, major fun for a 3 year old.
> The police just rode behind me until I ran out of momentum then got out and
> walked up to me, scratching their heads in amazement.
> I may have made the local paper that year, but the police learned to watch
> out for me as I always rode too far, on 3 wheels or 2.
> Bill Baka
>
>
You just need tire liners - My Tuffy or Slime brand. I'm using Mr.
Tuffy and nothing gets through them. I've ridden through glass embedded
in fresh tar, and my tires were studded with glass shards but no flats.
I *never* get a flat with these things unless they are improperly
installed, in which case they cause their own flats by abrading the tube.

> Hi, my girlfriend has been riding my road bike (Specialized Sequoia)
> and recently she has been getting lots of flats on the rear tube. I've
> replaced the tubes with new ones (various brands, Bontrager,
> Specialized, even Slime) but the tires still go flat at the end of the
> day. I consistently fill them with the right amount of air for road
> tires. I've also tried different rims/wheelsets but the problem still
> occurs. I've also replaced the tires themselves (went through
> Hutchinsons, Michelins, Armadillos) to no avail.

Lots of good info in this thread regarding what might cause flats in the
riding environment, but that might not be the case here. Given that you've
changed out all of the components (and have had many opportunities to find
something that might have caused a problem, such as even a tiny thorn), the
problem may lie with how the tires/tubes have been installed.

> She has experienced no problems with the front tires however so I'm
> puzzled as to what it could be.

This actually supports the idea that it might be an installation problem, as
the front tire simply hasn't been "installed" recently (and may have
originally been installed by a different person).

The tubes tell a tale. When somebody has a continuing saga with flat tires,
it's not enough to simply see the tire or wheel. You need to identify where
the holes are in the tubes, and look for what they have in common.
Location? Style (pinhole, slit, star break)?

> Frustrated (but experienced) tube changer.

Seek professional help before all your hair's gone! Seriously, even if
you've been changing tires & tubes for years, bring the stuff down to a
decent bike shop and have someone help you figure out what's going on. Find
out who the "detective" is on their staff... the person they hand off the
impossible stuff to. The person who will take it as a challenge to get to
the bottom of this (and who, you may note, is already missing a bunch of
hair due to prior such experiences).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Keith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi, my girlfriend has been riding my road bike (Specialized Sequoia)
> and recently she has been getting lots of flats on the rear tube. I've
> replaced the tubes with new ones (various brands, Bontrager,
> Specialized, even Slime) but the tires still go flat at the end of the
> day. I consistently fill them with the right amount of air for road
> tires. I've also tried different rims/wheelsets but the problem still
> occurs. I've also replaced the tires themselves (went through
> Hutchinsons, Michelins, Armadillos) to no avail.
>
> She's not heavy at all, ~110 lbs, so I'm not sure if it has anything
> to do mechanically with the bike or with the way she rides. She only
> rides it on asphalt and hardly ever over debris and I haven't seen any
> punctures in the tires themselves. I've noticed that a couple of
> times, the puncture is on the tube around the valve but I've run my
> finger across the inside of the rims and have noticed no burs or
> protruding spokes. The rim tape is still intact.
>
> She has experienced no problems with the front tires however so I'm
> puzzled as to what it could be. I'm scratching my head as I watch tube
> after tube go in for recycling. Not to mention she getting frustrated
> having to watch me replace the tubes at the end of her ride.
>
> Are there any special considerations for a female cyclist on a road
> bike that I would need to buy different types of tubes because of
> center of gravity, etc... I know I'm reaching a bit there but I'm not
> trying to be sexist in any way.
>
> Frustrated (but experienced) tube changer.
> -keith

>Subject: Re: Urgent question re: road bikes and flats
>From: Bill Baka [email protected]
>Date: 9/24/2004 5:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:57:05 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Greg Schindler writes:
>>
>>> Also check to make sure you are not tightening the nut on the
>>> outside of the tube stem. You can get rid of it once you inflate
>>> teh tube. By leaving it on may cause a leak at the valve stem and
>>> rim.
>>
>>> The suggestion prvious to this is called the blood test. Run your
>>> least favorite fingure inside the tire or along the rim. If you
>>> bleed, that is the culprit.
>>
>> OH! What additional myth and lore lies behind this advice. If you
>> believe these, then you have big voodoo yet to come. Bicycling is no
>> different from many religions. There are parables and historic tales
>> to be learned and believed.
>>
>> Jobst Brandt
>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>Along the lines of flat prevention, does anyone know of a near bulletproof
>tire, either 700 x 25 of 26" x 1.75", or of an insert (preferably metal)
>to
>line the inside of the tire? I have been getting a lot of flats on my 26"
>x
>1.75" tires even with the extra thick thorn resistant tubes. The thorns
>around here have no respect for my tires. This part of California has some
>weeds that have thorns in the shape of those anti-tank barriers from WWII,
>or
>what the police may throw on the road to stop a speeding getaway. The metal
>things are also designed to be dumped from the rear of some battle hardened
>rich guys cars to stop pursuers. If anyone knows what I mean and where to
>get
>some metal like this I would love to know. About 2 months ago I had about
>ten
>holes in a tube from getting run off the road by some teenagers into some
>thistles. Weight is not an issue with me since it just means more exercise
>but I hate having to walk into phone range to call someone to come and get
>me. I am thinking along the lines of that metal bailing wire that could be
>formed into a circle of just the right size to fit into a tire snuggly and
>not pinch the tube. Rubber coated wire would be good too.
>Anyone?
>Bill Baka
>

Bill, I have yet to have a flat using specialized armadillo nimbus tires.
They're a little salty at around 30 dollars each but worth every penny. They
also have some great tubes desert tubes.
Thicker than normal and with some kind of self sealing slime.

Order right from www.specialized.com if you don't feel like finding a bike shop
that carries them. many times the bike shop has to order them anyway.

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:18:31 GMT, [email protected]
wrote:

>Keith Akula writes:
>
>> Hi, my girlfriend has been riding my road bike (Specialized Sequoia)
>> and recently she has been getting lots of flats on the rear tube.
>> ....
>
>You didn't say what sort of leaks/holes you found in the inner tube.
>I suspect you may even have a thorn or two, still in the tire. This
>is a classic type of repeating leak if the thorn is just long enough
>to penetrate the tube.
>
>Run your thumb around the inside of the tire to find the culprit.
>Don't worry, you won't cut your thumb. In fact, unless you are
>careful, you will run right past that little whisker of a thorn.
>
>If this occurred on different wheels, then maybe you need to look how
>close to the edge of the road the bicycle is ridden and whether
>puncture vine grows on that route.
>
>http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0801+0392
>http://www.barbwired.com/andy/PunctureVine/
>http://www.or.blm.gov/Prineville/weed/puncture.htm
>http://www.naturesongs.com/vvplants/puncturevine.html
>http://tinyurl.com/d0xo
>http://www.cwma.org/puncturevine.html
>
>[email protected]

Thanks for all the replies, folks. I've done the finger test in the
past, even swabbed along the inside of the tire with cotton balls and
plain water. I would like to think it would be as simple a matter as
thorns or tiny glass shards but as mentioned in my original post, I've
even changed the wheelsets with newer spares that I know are clean and
have never seen asphalt.

One thing I've noticed the previous time I replaced the tube was a
spot where the tube seemed to be literally fused with the inside of
the tire. I tried separating gently but it was as if they were glued
or melted together. Needless to say, I took no chances and replaced
the tire and the tube. It was still sticky when I noticed this. This
wasn't the Slime tube, incidentally, so no slime leak there. I think
it was the Specialized tube. Not certain if this was the leak itself
though.

The leaks/holes I have noticed have been mostly near the valves and
are tiny slits along the inside (hub side) of the tube. Probably no
more than 1 mm.

We took a ride this morning. She was more careful than usual but no
flats so far. I've read somewhere that brakes can sometimes generate
lots of heat on the rim, I can't imagine this would be enough to cause
softening of the tube?

Thanks for all your help!
-keith

Keith wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies, folks. I've done the finger test in the
> past, even swabbed along the inside of the tire with cotton balls and
> plain water. I would like to think it would be as simple a matter as
> thorns or tiny glass shards but as mentioned in my original post, I've
> even changed the wheelsets with newer spares that I know are clean and
> have never seen asphalt.
>
> One thing I've noticed the previous time I replaced the tube was a
> spot where the tube seemed to be literally fused with the inside of
> the tire. I tried separating gently but it was as if they were glued
> or melted together. Needless to say, I took no chances and replaced
> the tire and the tube.

No need to replace the tire. If the tube tears (or even thins a bit) when
separating it from the casing, then toss it. Use some talcum powder on the
next tube to keep it from adhering to the tire (although I never do this any
more myself; just don't have the "fusing" problem very often if at all).

After patching a tube, a little "stickiness" can actually be HELPFUL in
keeping things from leaking.

Bill "highly scientific theories" S.