national defense with Bush or Kerry



davidmc

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Jun 23, 2004
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homeland defense will be just as good, if not better; w/ Kerry as it would be (is currently) w/ Bush. If Kerry wins the election, the Defense dept, Police forces, Intelligence services, ect... aren't just going to "drop thier guard". It'll be just the same as before. These are independent organizations who have a duty to fulfill irrespective of whether a president has a[n] "(R)" or a "(D)" after thier name. Case in point, I'm an american first & a progressive second.
My duty is to america first & my political leanings afterward because w/o america; my politacal beliefs don't matter.
 
davidmc said:
homeland defense will be just as good, if not better; w/ Kerry as it would be (is currently) w/ Bush. If Kerry wins the election, the Defense dept, Police forces, Intelligence services, ect... aren't just going to "drop thier guard". It'll be just the same as before. These are independent organizations who have a duty to fulfill irrespective of whether a president has a[n] "(R)" or a "(D)" after thier name. Case in point, I'm an american first & a progressive second.
My duty is to america first & my political leanings afterward because w/o america; my politacal beliefs don't matter.
If this statement is true, why should I vote for Kerry?
 
Bikerman2004 said:
If this statement is true, why should I vote for Kerry?
Cheney wanted to "scare" people into voting for his guy. They want to cover all of the bases, this being near the top of the list. So, Cheney shamefully misrepresented the gov'ts apolitical stance. All gov't employee's( Military, police, intelligence) are req'd to do thier jobs w/o prejudice
 
Bikerman2004 said:
If this statement is true, why should I vote for Kerry?
Fair question, I suppose.

I suppose if David's claim is true, and you're not particularly disappointed with Bush's brand of foreign policy, his handling of Iraq and his follow-through with Afghanistan, his economic policy, his social philosophy and his approach to environmental issues -- then there's no reason for you to select Kerry.

The average Kerry voter likely both subscribes to David's assesment, and feels that Bush is far enough off the mark on some or all of those areas to warrant a leadership change. I could never feel comfortable about a President who holds Bush's stance on social issues, for instance.

Many Kerry supporters feel that not only will Kerry be perfectly serious about homeland security, but that his greater inclination towards internationalism will make his global efforts more effective, less alienating. Us non-Bush folk have always feared that approaching the militant Islam problem the wrong way would make things worse.
 
lokstah said:
Fair question, I suppose.

I suppose if David's claim is true, and you're not particularly disappointed with Bush's brand of foreign policy, his handling of Iraq and his follow-through with Afghanistan, his economic policy, his social philosophy and his approach to environmental issues -- then there's no reason for you to select Kerry.

The average Kerry voter likely both subscribes to David's assesment, and feels that Bush is far enough off the mark on some or all of those areas to warrant a leadership change. I could never feel comfortable about a President who holds Bush's stance on social issues, for instance.

Many Kerry supporters feel that not only will Kerry be perfectly serious about homeland security, but that his greater inclination towards internationalism will make his global efforts more effective, less alienating. Us non-Bush folk have always feared that approaching the militant Islam problem the wrong way would make things worse.
This response would be ok, but David wasn't talking about foreign policy, Iraq, philosophy, or economic policy. It was just about homeland defense. What will Kerry do any differently than Bush on homeland defense? Just how would you un-Bush folk approach militant Islam?
 
Bikerman2004 said:
This response would be ok, but David wasn't talking about foreign policy, Iraq, philosophy, or economic policy. It was just about homeland defense. What will Kerry do any differently than Bush on homeland defense? Just how would you un-Bush folk approach militant Islam?
Well, I responded the way I did (citing the broad spectrum: economic policy, etc) because of the question you posed to David. Assuming they're both competent in terms of maintaining security, you asked, why vote for one over the other? I paraphrased, so let me know if your intent was different.

I took that as meaning: if both candidates satisfy column A, then what determines your vote? Clearly, the remaining columns do.

Back to the foreign policy question. Well, that's a tough one, because admittedly, no one can forsee exactly how a Kerry administration would handle the next four years as opposed to the current one. I can say that I have very few good feelings about the foreign policy of the past four years. The Iraq invasion, I feel, was ill-timed, ill-planned, and a massive detraction of resources. The battle -- deposing a dangerous human rights violator with anti-American aims and the desire to maintain a weapons arsenal -- may have been won, but I'm not sure how tactically sound a victory this is in the larger war.

I would have liked to see the administration focus more resources on obliterating al Qaeda buildups in South Asia, tracking down and dealing with Bin Laden, and fostering international cooperation with regards to neturalizing the militant Islam tide. Because the threat posed by Hussein was an ambivalent one, I feel the urgency expressed by the Bush administration was unnecessary, and it precluded the priorities I listed above.

I was dissappointed when Bush won the presidency in 2000, but purely outraged when it became clear that his administration had every intention of pursuing the foreign policy they did. It was a personal confirmation that Bush and his advisors saw the world and his role in it in a vastly different manner than I did.

I've got to put faith in the alternative.
 
lokstah said:
Well, I responded the way I did (citing the broad spectrum: economic policy, etc) because of the question you posed to David. Assuming they're both competent in terms of maintaining security, you asked, why vote for one over the other? I paraphrased, so let me know if your intent was different.

I took that as meaning: if both candidates satisfy column A, then what determines your vote? Clearly, the remaining columns do.

Back to the foreign policy question. Well, that's a tough one, because admittedly, no one can forsee exactly how a Kerry administration would handle the next four years as opposed to the current one. I can say that I have very few good feelings about the foreign policy of the past four years. The Iraq invasion, I feel, was ill-timed, ill-planned, and a massive detraction of resources. The battle -- deposing a dangerous human rights violator with anti-American aims and the desire to maintain a weapons arsenal -- may have been won, but I'm not sure how tactically sound a victory this is in the larger war.

I would have liked to see the administration focus more resources on obliterating al Qaeda buildups in South Asia, tracking down and dealing with Bin Laden, and fostering international cooperation with regards to neturalizing the militant Islam tide. Because the threat posed by Hussein was an ambivalent one, I feel the urgency expressed by the Bush administration was unnecessary, and it precluded the priorities I listed above.

I was dissappointed when Bush won the presidency in 2000, but purely outraged when it became clear that his administration had every intention of pursuing the foreign policy they did. It was a personal confirmation that Bush and his advisors saw the world and his role in it in a vastly different manner than I did.

I've got to put faith in the alternative.
I think MC actually said Kerry would be as good or better than Bush on homeland defense. That is point I'm talking about. Just what is Kerry going to do any differently from Bush? Has Kerry stated anything he will differently on defense?
 
Bikerman2004 said:
I think MC actually said Kerry would be as good or better than Bush on homeland defense. That is point I'm talking about. Just what is Kerry going to do any differently from Bush? Has Kerry stated anything he will differently on defense?
My intent was to "bust Cheney's balloon(claim)" that a vote for Kerry would be a vote for armageddon(he said/implied as much). The federal authorities will function & do thier duties as they are paid & paid well to do. There are plenty of gov't workers who've been through 4+ administrations & carry out thier duties as they're supposed to be apolitical(a req't)Also a bill was introduced recently(by the dem's, i believe) which would limit some of the more draconian, open ended method's of the "Patriot Act". I hav'nt seen the specifics of Patriot II but it sounds scary!!! Dubya is making 1984 come true, as another poster' pointed out.
 
davidmc said:
My intent was to "bust Cheney's balloon(claim)" that a vote for Kerry would be a vote for armageddon(he said/implied as much).
nt seen the specifics of Patriot II but it sounds scary!!! Dubya is making 1984 come true, as another poster' pointed out.
I think Cheney's comments were baseless, and was trying to play upon fears of terrorism. I would never be convinced to vote for someone on that argument.

If you haven't seen any specifics then I don't think we can make any judgements, or are we making judgements just because of Bush?
 
Bikerman2004 said:
I think MC actually said Kerry would be as good or better than Bush on homeland defense. That is point I'm talking about. Just what is Kerry going to do any differently from Bush? Has Kerry stated anything he will differently on defense?
Well, it's hard to say, beyond what we get from the campaign rhetoric. Kerry has certainly promised a series of reforms, some of which he's offered more detail on, and some of which sounds fairly general.

He's got a fairly specific plan to increase the permanent size of the armed forces, for one. He also claims to be a few steps ahead of Bush on the question of intelligence reform, something he advocated pretty vocally while Bush was slowly mulling it over. He's got a bunch of proposed changes to the Patriot Act, designed to bolster some of the provisions (like those targeting laundering schemes) and revisit more questionable ones that seriously challenge civil liberties.

Are any of these promises clearer or more certain than campaign rhetoric often is? Not necessarily. But to someone looking for an alternative to the Bush administration, they count for something. Ultimately, what I ranted about earlier is an inevitable tie-in: the suggestion that a sound foreign policy, coupled with solid homeland defense, is the best recipe for keeping us safe.
 
lokstah said:
Well, it's hard to say, beyond what we get from the campaign rhetoric. Kerry has certainly promised a series of reforms, some of which he's offered more detail on, and some of which sounds fairly general.

He's got a fairly specific plan to increase the permanent size of the armed forces, for one. He also claims to be a few steps ahead of Bush on the question of intelligence reform, something he advocated pretty vocally while Bush was slowly mulling it over. He's got a bunch of proposed changes to the Patriot Act, designed to bolster some of the provisions (like those targeting laundering schemes) and revisit more questionable ones that seriously challenge civil liberties.

Are any of these promises clearer or more certain than campaign rhetoric often is? Not necessarily. But to someone looking for an alternative to the Bush administration, they count for something. Ultimately, what I ranted about earlier is an inevitable tie-in: the suggestion that a sound foreign policy, coupled with solid homeland defense, is the best recipe for keeping us safe.
I haven't heard anything specific from Kerry. That is what concerns me most about him. I want specifics from him. I'm nervous to vote for someone who won't tell me what they will do.
Foreign policy has been a problem since the cold war ended. Seems as though they didn't know what to do after the cold war. I know why we had the policy we did in the cold war, but its been close to 15 years since and it seems we've been stumbling since George H Bush to formulate a new one.
 
Bikerman2004 said:
Foreign policy has been a problem since the cold war ended. Seems as though they didn't know what to do after the cold war. I know why we had the policy we did in the cold war, but its been close to 15 years since...
Good point. One could theorize that part of the cause for the vigorous left/right divide we're feeling is the buildup of an ideological power-balance -- the global adversary we faced for the past half century, naturally, helped define us. The debate over our national identity is related to that adversary vanishing.

Clearly, we've still got adversaries, though we've entered a new era, and the paths are complex and unexplored.

The lack of specifics is frustrating, but it's pretty standard election-year work. The willing can always visit the candidates' websites and read glistening, optimistic (if generalized) agendas; the argument always remains that project outlines are the best anyone can offer in advance. Kerry's got a skeletal plan; I've read it. A few highlights are summarized in my previous post.
 
lokstah said:
Clearly, we've still got adversaries, though we've entered a new era, and the paths are complex and unexplored.
Plans and policies were meant to stop the perceived Soviet(communist) expansion. Many of these were designed to stop the Soviets from achieving dominance in strategically important areas. Examples would be Chile, Nicaragua, Grenada, Yemen. While some seem to be brutal, they were designed to prevent expansion. Unfortunately, they didn't foresee there ever being an end to the cold war and therefore didn't care about the citizens of these nations. This mentality has been going on since 1945. Both democrats and republicans have carried on this policy. So everyone gets to share in the blame equally.
 
Bikerman2004 said:
Plans and policies were meant to stop the perceived Soviet(communist) expansion. Many of these were designed to stop the Soviets from achieving dominance in strategically important areas. Examples would be Chile, Nicaragua, Grenada, Yemen. While some seem to be brutal, they were designed to prevent expansion. Unfortunately, they didn't foresee there ever being an end to the cold war and therefore didn't care about the citizens of these nations. This mentality has been going on since 1945. Both democrats and republicans have carried on this policy. So everyone gets to share in the blame equally.
No disagreement here.
 
lokstah said:
No disagreement here.
It seems people forget what our foreign policy was based on. Non Americans have a hard time comprehending this. Their countries weren't on the front line of the cold war. They seem to think our policy should have been different. But in light of stopping expansion I don't really see how it could have changed much.
 
Bikerman2004 said:
It seems people forget what our foreign policy was based on. Non Americans have a hard time comprehending this. Their countries weren't on the front line of the cold war. They seem to think our policy should have been different. But in light of stopping expansion I don't really see how it could have changed much.
On the other hand, we shouldn't presume that the noble intention of halting Communism precludes our culpability where blame was due; the policies and operations you speak of were difficult, complex scenarios and the US found itself straddling a lot of moral ambiguities. Only human, are we.

A difficult era.

I hate difficult eras. Too bad we're in another one...
 
I don't know about Bush, but I'm pretty damned certain that Kerry will not manufacture another war for the United States. I saw the Iraq war coming long before 9/11 happened, as I think everyone here did. By that I do not mean that it was inevitable, but rather that the Bush admin had such a war in its long term plans as soon as they were 'elected' into office. It was, if everyone recalls, a rather big campaign issue for them even in 2000.

I'm still trying to figure out what I am being protected from. I'm more concerned about Bush protecting the soldiers over there in Iraq by giving them more manpower. It's ridiculous that we have such few troops in a country we are supposed to be providing security for.
 
davidmc said:
My intent was to "bust Cheney's balloon(claim)" that a vote for Kerry would be a vote for armageddon(he said/implied as much). The federal authorities will function & do thier duties as they are paid & paid well to do. There are plenty of gov't workers who've been through 4+ administrations & carry out thier duties as they're supposed to be apolitical(a req't)Also a bill was introduced recently(by the dem's, i believe) which would limit some of the more draconian, open ended method's of the "Patriot Act". I hav'nt seen the specifics of Patriot II but it sounds scary!!! Dubya is making 1984 come true, as another poster' pointed out.

But John Kerry voted for the Patriot act, how do you feel about that?

You state that gov't workers are suppose to be apolitical, but we know this not to be the case, one only needs to look at the career bureaucrats in the state department. My misgivings about John Kerry and his approach to National Defense is his voting record in the Senate. Numerous times he voted against weapons systems, defense spending, and against the intelligence community. I would also offer I do have a problem with President Bush and his approach to immigration and our pourous borders in regards to homeland security.
 
davidmc said:
Cheney wanted to "scare" people into voting for his guy. They want to cover all of the bases, this being near the top of the list. So, Cheney shamefully misrepresented the gov'ts apolitical stance. All gov't employee's( Military, police, intelligence) are req'd to do thier jobs w/o prejudice

Well, how do you feel about Senator Kennedy, the hero of Chappaquiddick, and the comments he made today in regards to the Bush Administration?
 
Jakebrake said:
But John Kerry voted for the Patriot act, how do you feel about that?
Not great.

The reforms he suggests for the Patriot Act are a step in the right direction, but make no mistake: Kerry ain't no posterboy for the real left. He's the posterboy for the left's current centrist state.
 

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