Why is HS running so complicated?



A

amh

Guest
Not a season goes by where I don't hear about some team being
disqualified for some sort of a uniform infraction. My favorite was
the girl disqualified for putting her bra shoulder strap over her
singlet shoulder strap because the singlet wasn't comfortable.

How much more complicated do they want to make a simple event. You
ensure the identify of your team during the race and you run till you
puke. Can you imagine that meeting to decide whether the kids will be
allowed to wear them in State meets referred to below? "No we can't
let them wear the bands, that will lead to independent thought, which
will lead to questioning authority, which will lead to Rock n Roll and
god knows what after that!"

What is it with these HS XC meet dictators? As George Carlin says "I
saw a 1930's documentary about school uniforms. It was a little hard
to understand because it was in German."

Andy

High School Runners Win Battle Over Cancer Wristbands
Updated: Wednesday, Oct. 13, 2004 - 6:24 AM

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. (AP) - Stung by criticism of its action, a high
school district has reversed a decision to disqualify cross country
runners for wearing Lance Armstrong LiveStrong wristbands.

The decision was reversed because "adequate prior notice had not been
given to the participants," Bruce Biehl, Kellam High School's
principal and chairman of Beach District cross country, said in a
statement released Tuesday.

More than 20 runners were declared ineligible in a meet last Wednesday
for wearing the popular LiveStrong bands, sold for $1 apiece. Proceeds
go to the Lance Armstrong Foundation, which provides practical
information to cancer survivors.

Biehl said the meet results are being retallied and will be announced
Wednesday.

Runners will be allowed to continue wearing the wristbands for the
rest of the district cross country season, he said. Biehl added that
clarification will be sought on wearing the bands during regional and
state competitions.

A flood of e-mails protesting the decision followed a story Saturday
in The Virginian-Pilot of Norfolk detailing the Beach District's
action.

The decision to disqualify the runners, Biehl said, was in keeping
with a recently drafted National Federation of State High School
Associations ruling classifying the band as jewelry. But Biehl
acknowledged that runners and coaches weren't given much notice.

The Virginia High School League circulated the new policy to schools
on Oct. 4, two days before the meet.

Many of the runners in last Wednesday's meet said they were unaware
that the bands were classified as jewelry and would have taken them
off had they known they risked disqualification.

"Our kids certainly weren't wearing them to be defiant," said Mike
Nestor, coach at Ocean Lakes High. "We're kind of in awe of everything
that's happened."

But Nestor said the controversy has served as a learning tool for his
athletes.

"Sometimes you wear that band but forget what it's really for," Nestor
said. "I've received e-mails from all over the country from cancer
survivors voicing their support. Through their stories, we've learned
what an inspiration that band really is."

(Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
 
amh wrote:
> Not a season goes by where I don't hear about some team being
> disqualified for some sort of a uniform infraction.

Our hs xc regional meets this year were in the snowstorm the day before
my slush race. As I understand it (from a letter to editor), unless the
kids had tights in school colors, they weren't allowed to wear them.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
 
"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> amh wrote:
> > Not a season goes by where I don't hear about some team being
> > disqualified for some sort of a uniform infraction.
>
> Our hs xc regional meets this year were in the snowstorm the day before
> my slush race. As I understand it (from a letter to editor), unless the
> kids had tights in school colors, they weren't allowed to wear them.
>
> Dot
>
> --
> "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
> away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
>
That has been a rule for at least 10 years (back when I was officiating high
school and collegiate meets). One rationale is that it allows the officials
to distinguish finishers or rules violators.

The jewelry rule has been around for quite a while. I DQ'ed a kid once for
violating it. Did not feel bad since the meet director announced it over
the PA system several times during the day. One reason the jewelry rule is
"zero tolerant" is that it reduces the risk of one official okaying some
piece of jewelry one meet and another not allowing it the next week.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (amh) wrote:

> Not a season goes by where I don't hear about some team being
> disqualified for some sort of a uniform infraction. My favorite was
> the girl disqualified for putting her bra shoulder strap over her
> singlet shoulder strap because the singlet wasn't comfortable.
>
> How much more complicated do they want to make a simple event. You
> ensure the identify of your team during the race and you run till you
> puke. Can you imagine that meeting to decide whether the kids will be
> allowed to wear them in State meets referred to below? "No we can't
> let them wear the bands, that will lead to independent thought, which
> will lead to questioning authority, which will lead to Rock n Roll and
> god knows what after that!"
>
> What is it with these HS XC meet dictators? As George Carlin says "I
> saw a 1930's documentary about school uniforms. It was a little hard
> to understand because it was in German."


It has little to do with the XC directors and a lot to do with the NFHS,
which sets the rules for most high school sports.

But I agree that it's stupid.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
 
Sam wrote:

> "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>amh wrote:
>>
>>>Not a season goes by where I don't hear about some team being
>>>disqualified for some sort of a uniform infraction.
>>
>>Our hs xc regional meets this year were in the snowstorm the day before
>>my slush race. As I understand it (from a letter to editor), unless the
>>kids had tights in school colors, they weren't allowed to wear them.
>>
>>Dot
>>
>>--
>>"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
>>away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
>>
>
> That has been a rule for at least 10 years (back when I was officiating high
> school and collegiate meets). One rationale is that it allows the officials
> to distinguish finishers or rules violators.

What are bib numbers for then? (I'm relatively new to racing and have
never watched a hs xc race, and clueless about idiosyncrasies of these
things.)

Most of the time, a runner may not have tights on, and the officials can
distinguish them then. Why would the addition of tights make it
difficult to distinguish runners? I would think getting snow (high
probability) or mud covered would make it more difficult to distinguish
runners.

It's generally only the last few meets (regionals or state) where snow
is likely here so I can see where a school might not have tights as
part of the uniform. I guess maybe they could wear the xc ski team's
tights, then it would be school colors, but might be warm.

I just found the letter again - it was 29F, wet snow, and "windy".

I can understand the concept of discipline, esp. in the military, but
somehow for hs sporting events, it would seem like promoting common
sense and learning life-long skills (how to dress to run in Alaska
winter without getting hypothermia) might get a little higher priority.
Just my weird, unconventional thinking.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
 
What is HS running?

*klewless grrl*
_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
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HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
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"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sam wrote:
>
>> "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message

> What are bib numbers for then? (I'm relatively new to racing and have
> never watched a hs xc race, and clueless about idiosyncrasies of these
> things.)

Unless things have changed since I watched my daughter run in HS there
are no bib numbers. The uniform and the uniformity of the uniform(how's
that for abusing a single word) is used. Soo, the shirts/singlets must
be the same and if one decides to wear tights they all must wear tights.

I can only assume when a XC meet is on and two five schools are running
the refs need to able to easily distinguish every runner down to a
school. I can see insisting on each runner being the same. Some of the
rest of rules I'm sure have some history albeit to a fault.

-DF
 
<< > What is HS running?

Heliographic Schizophrenia - a common malady in USA school grades 9-12.

-Freud >>

nu um!

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
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HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Dot <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote:

> What are bib numbers for then? (I'm relatively new to racing and have
> never watched a hs xc race, and clueless about idiosyncrasies of these
> things.)
>
> Most of the time, a runner may not have tights on, and the officials can
> distinguish them then. Why would the addition of tights make it
> difficult to distinguish runners? I would think getting snow (high
> probability) or mud covered would make it more difficult to distinguish
> runners.


No bibs when I ran HS XC.

We did have uniforms, and in other sports, there are strict rules
governing uniforms and what you can add to the uniforms in the way of
sweatpants, etc. If the kids have matching uniforms but then put on
random tights, sweats, jackets, etc that don't match, it does make it
hard on the officials.

But I think again that he NFHS is the problem: they try to make their
rules match across sports as much as possible, and other sports have
these strict uniform requirements.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
 
Dot <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Sam wrote:
>
> > "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>amh wrote:
> >>
> >>>Not a season goes by where I don't hear about some team being
> >>>disqualified for some sort of a uniform infraction.
> >>
> >>Our hs xc regional meets this year were in the snowstorm the day before
> >>my slush race. As I understand it (from a letter to editor), unless the
> >>kids had tights in school colors, they weren't allowed to wear them.
> >>
> >>Dot
> >>
> >>--
> >>"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
> >>away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
> >>
> >
> > That has been a rule for at least 10 years (back when I was officiating high
> > school and collegiate meets). One rationale is that it allows the officials
> > to distinguish finishers or rules violators.
>
> What are bib numbers for then? (I'm relatively new to racing and have
> never watched a hs xc race, and clueless about idiosyncrasies of these
> things.)
>
> Most of the time, a runner may not have tights on, and the officials can
> distinguish them then. Why would the addition of tights make it
> difficult to distinguish runners? I would think getting snow (high
> probability) or mud covered would make it more difficult to distinguish
> runners.
>
> It's generally only the last few meets (regionals or state) where snow
> is likely here so I can see where a school might not have tights as
> part of the uniform. I guess maybe they could wear the xc ski team's
> tights, then it would be school colors, but might be warm.
>
> I just found the letter again - it was 29F, wet snow, and "windy".
>
> I can understand the concept of discipline, esp. in the military, but
> somehow for hs sporting events, it would seem like promoting common
> sense and learning life-long skills (how to dress to run in Alaska
> winter without getting hypothermia) might get a little higher priority.
> Just my weird, unconventional thinking.
>
> Dot

I never ran in high school or college, but in the other sports I
played in high school and college, we couldn't wear socks, shin guards
or tights (in basketball, even short ones) that were any color other
than the same as our shorts (or kilts). The refs explained that they
often had to take their attention away from our jersey numbers to look
at our legs to see if we kicked the ball or stepped out of bounds or
whatever, and that color-consistency was very helpful. I imagine that
this could apply to running, for finish line and other purposes?

Mandy
 
Doug Freese wrote:
> "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Sam wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
>
>
>>What are bib numbers for then? (I'm relatively new to racing and have
>>never watched a hs xc race, and clueless about idiosyncrasies of these
>>things.)
>
>
> Unless things have changed since I watched my daughter run in HS there
> are no bib numbers. The uniform and the uniformity of the uniform(how's
> that for abusing a single word) is used. Soo, the shirts/singlets must
> be the same and if one decides to wear tights they all must wear tights.

Thanks. Ok, that makes sense and was my first reaction. So as not to
appear more ignorant than usual, I looked back at the pic I had posted
at the end of my slush race report. Doesn't that look like a bib the guy
is wearing?
http://www.adn.com/sports/v-enlarge/story/5601559p-5532915c.html
(haven't found any other photos in my archives or freebies on local
papers where the visibility is better or closer)

This is the boys race, which I assume after the girls race,
when I'm assuming the weather had "improved" (relatively speaking -
appears calm here whereas "mailbag" letter suggested wind at girls race
at 10am).

In regionals (the race in question) and states, is it only full teams
that have qualified that go or do some individuals also go if they are
fast enough but their team didn't qualify. I thought it was the latter,
but I could be wrong.

>
> I can only assume when a XC meet is on and two five schools are running
> the refs need to able to easily distinguish every runner down to a
> school. I can see insisting on each runner being the same.

This was regionals.

Now my next ignorant question is, if they only have recognition down to
a team level, not to an individual or bib number, how do they list times
for individual runners?

Some of the
> rest of rules I'm sure have some history albeit to a fault.
>
I may ask one of the coaches at our cross-training (when I start in a
couple weeks) since he used to coach hs for many years (decades?) and
and may still be rd for an invitational.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
 
Harold Buck wrote:

> No bibs when I ran HS XC.
>
> We did have uniforms, and in other sports, there are strict rules
> governing uniforms and what you can add to the uniforms in the way of
> sweatpants, etc. If the kids have matching uniforms but then put on
> random tights, sweats, jackets, etc that don't match, it does make it
> hard on the officials.

That makes sense but I would think as long as the main part of a uniform
was visible that a certain amount of common sense would be allowed in
terms of layers for colder weather. There's such a thing as being a
"team" and doing everything alike, but some people just have different
physiology. OTOH, maybe xc uniforms are so minimal, that they don't
catch your eye like hockey (field or ice) uniforms.

>
> But I think again that he NFHS is the problem: they try to make their
> rules match across sports as much as possible, and other sports have
> these strict uniform requirements.

I'm not sure about the NFHS, but I think I remember reading some
guidelines (whatever the national organization is for running - USATF??)
as to when to call off races because of weather - definitely warmer than
many Alaskan races are run in. So maybe they limit weather conditions to
what is reasonable for a "uniform".

I'm with Andy. How can they make such a simple sport so complicated.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
 
Mandy Barto wrote:
>
> I never ran in high school or college, but in the other sports I
> played in high school and college, we couldn't wear socks, shin guards
> or tights (in basketball, even short ones) that were any color other
> than the same as our shorts (or kilts).

I can see the point, but it must be something developed since 1965 and
may have something to do with more emphasis on sports now, esp. for
females - including full uniforms? I'm just guessing.

We were allowed to wear other things as long as uniform was visible.
Since our colors were red and white, it was easy to find white socks and
white blouse to wear under red tunic (your kilt, maybe?). Other schools
didn't have white in their colors, but still wore white socks. (Thinking
back, I'm not sure there were other options at the time.) Shoes were
whatever works for you - most hockey players probably had black shoes
and basketball had white - regardless of school or colors. Several field
hockey players wore black ankle/shin guards (not goalie pads). Softball
we just wore red shorts and white blouses - provided by ourselves.
(Summer league had real uniforms so you didn't leave your skin on the
field when you slid - or tripped.)

We didn't have tights back then either - or at least not ones you'd be
seen in. (baggy cotton sweats were the main option)

Hmmm, those were also the days of the black VW bugs. I wonder if there's
been more regs implemented as color options became more available.

The refs explained that they
> often had to take their attention away from our jersey numbers to look
> at our legs to see if we kicked the ball or stepped out of bounds or
> whatever, and that color-consistency was very helpful. I imagine that
> this could apply to running, for finish line and other purposes?
>
> Mandy

Thanks.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
 
"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> Unless things have changed since I watched my daughter run in HS
>> there are no bib numbers. The uniform and the uniformity of the
>> uniform(how's that for abusing a single word) is used. Soo, the
>> shirts/singlets must be the same and if one decides to wear tights
>> they all must wear tights.
>
> Thanks. Ok, that makes sense and was my first reaction. So as not to
> appear more ignorant than usual, I looked back at the pic I had posted
> at the end of my slush race report. Doesn't that look like a bib the
> guy is wearing?
> http://www.adn.com/sports/v-enlarge/story/5601559p-5532915c.html
> (haven't found any other photos in my archives or freebies on local
> papers where the visibility is better or closer)

I agree it does look like a bib. many Alaska has their own rural rules.
:)

>> I can only assume when a XC meet is on and two five schools are
>> running the refs need to able to easily distinguish every runner down
>> to a school. I can see insisting on each runner being the same.
>
> This was regionals.
>
> Now my next ignorant question is, if they only have recognition down
> to a team level, not to an individual or bib number, how do they list
> times for individual runners?

To be honest I don't think the individual time is of any value in the
meet. With XC it's the top 5(i think 5) for the school that counts.
What ever team has the lowest position total is the winner. A team that
finishes 1,3,5,7,9 (25)will win over the team that is 2, 4, 6, 8 10(30).
If there is a tie I think they go runner 6. Sam and those closer to HS
sports can probably be more specific. if they do record times I don't
know how they get correlated. It's been a while since HS. :)

-Doug


-DF
 
What is really silly in watching them make h.s. kids strip off all jewelry down
to those dangerous stud earrings and hair clips, and then watching Olympic
runners with their big gold chains flopping all over the place.

Paul
 
1) Please provide a link to the original article. Notice, too, that John
Kerry wore a Lance Armstrong yellow wrist band in the last debate. So did
Jeremy Wariner at the Olympics.

2) If the meet made their rules public before the event, then pay attention
to them. I ran track and xc back when it was scandalous that one of my
teammates pulled his jersey out of his shorts after the gun. Get over it.
If the officials make their requirements known before the event, then relay
that to the runners. If they do not make their uniform requirements known
before the event, then give them the one-finger salute if your team doesn't
abide by their (after-the-fact) arbitrary rules. Obey the rules, but do
what makes sense.
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
Dot <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote:

>
> Now my next ignorant question is, if they only have recognition down to
> a team level, not to an individual or bib number, how do they list times
> for individual runners?
>


Championchip.

No, seriously, it probably varies a lot, but when I was in high school
we got the good old tongue depressor with a number on it and then had to
go hand it in and give our names. We even did this for our invitational,
which had 10-12 teams. Granted, that was 20 years ago, when I was pretty
fast.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Doug Freese" <[email protected]> wrote:

> To be honest I don't think the individual time is of any value in the
> meet. With XC it's the top 5(i think 5) for the school that counts.
> What ever team has the lowest position total is the winner. A team that
> finishes 1,3,5,7,9 (25)will win over the team that is 2, 4, 6, 8 10(30).
> If there is a tie I think they go runner 6.

Runners 6 and 7 don't figure directly into the scoring, but they do
indirectly. If team A gets 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (=15) and team B gets 6, 7, 8,
9, 10 = (40), that's not as good as team A getting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
(=15 still) and team B getting 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (=50). In other words,
the sixth and seventh runners can displace other people to affect the
scoring. 15-50 is a shutout in XC.

The times don't matter in the scoring, but, dammit, you're going to have
some hacked off runners if you don't get times!

> Sam and those closer to HS
> sports can probably be more specific. if they do record times I don't
> know how they get correlated. It's been a while since HS. :)


We used to use the old time sheet method: two people work the finish
line, one calling times and the other circling them on special pre-made
sheets. If there's a tie, you circle the time and put the number of
people finishing with that time on it. Then you go back and match up
times to places (since most of the time the first-place finisher has the
fastest time, the second-place finisher the secon-fastest, and so on :).

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
Dot <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote:

> >
> > I never ran in high school or college, but in the other sports I
> > played in high school and college, we couldn't wear socks, shin guards
> > or tights (in basketball, even short ones) that were any color other
> > than the same as our shorts (or kilts).
>
> I can see the point, but it must be something developed since 1965 and
> may have something to do with more emphasis on sports now, esp. for
> females - including full uniforms? I'm just guessing.
>
> We were allowed to wear other things as long as uniform was visible.


In team (game) sports, it's really confusing to officiate if you don't
have color consistency. If you have anyone wearing, say, sweats of the
other team's color, you might assess a penalty on the wrong team, and
that's bad. It's much less of an issue in XC and track, but the NFHS is
trying to make all the rules the same. I'm not thrilled with the NFHS on
a lot of issues.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
 
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