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Re: I was misled

post #1 of 282
6/25/04 at 5:50pm
Thread Starter 
Luigi de Guzman writes:

>> What is it that irritates you so about factual reporting.

> I'm not irritated about factual reporting.

> I am mildly irritated that rbm is going to be turned into yet
> another front for the US Presidential election.

This like other topics we might choose not to read is each reader's
prerogative to skip or not. Off topic trouble arises when within a
thread someone takes advantage of folks who are following the subject
by introducing another agenda such as helmets under tire problems.
That is not what is happening here.

> You've been around on the rec.bicycles.* hierarchy much longer than
> I have, so I know you won't take kindly to a n00b like me
> reproaching you for posting something so blatantly off-topic as
> this. But perhaps there are regular NG readers who want to talk
> about bicycles and wish not to have the ugliness of the present
> electoral campaign intrude upon that discussion?

Those people who disagree with exposing the lies of this
administration failed to read Orwell's 1984 and do not recognize
Newspeak when the see it.

http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns_frames.html

They believe the American way is so perfect that if our leader says
it, it must be the truth. Even Dan Quayle was saved by that axiom.

http://www.xmission.com/~mwalker/DQ/

Just remember that GWB had no comment when he was told Ronald Reagan
had died. It took him six hours to get a script from his mentors
before he could give an official statement at midnight from his trip in
Europe. All this stuff is scripted and filtered. Discussing this in
any and all newsgroups is an urgent matter for the survival of our
nation as a democracy as the hatchet man John Ashcroft hacks away at
civil liberties and international law. The ugly brutality of our
administration is a huge blot on the nation. If you follow foreign
news you could see haw bad we look in the eyes of the world. BBC news
is mild compared to other continental news sources. I don't know
what is being said in Asia.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
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post #2 of 282
6/26/04 at 2:53am

Re: I was misled

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote in message news:<xe0Dc.18976$Fo4.247063@typhoon.sonic.net>...
> The ugly brutality of our
> administration is a huge blot on the nation. If you follow foreign
> news you could see haw bad we look in the eyes of the world. BBC news
> is mild compared to other continental news sources. I don't know
> what is being said in Asia.

Here in mild-mannered conservative Japan, the press is generally
pretty tame, but nevertheless I hear that Bush's approval rating
amongst the public has soared to the heady heights of 7%. That is not
a typo. Bush supporters will no doubt argue that it is irrelevant what
the rest of the world thinks, and it is their right to elect a
dangerous moron if they choose, but they should at least be aware that
this really is how the rest of the world views him (and by extension,
those who elect him).

James
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post #3 of 282
6/26/04 at 2:56am

Re: I was misled

James Annan wrote:

> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote in message news:<xe0Dc.18976$Fo4.247063@typhoon.sonic.net>...
>
>>The ugly brutality of our
>>administration is a huge blot on the nation. If you follow foreign
>>news you could see haw bad we look in the eyes of the world. BBC news
>>is mild compared to other continental news sources. I don't know
>>what is being said in Asia.
>
>
> Here in mild-mannered conservative Japan, the press is generally
> pretty tame, but nevertheless I hear that Bush's approval rating
> amongst the public has soared to the heady heights of 7%. That is not
> a typo. Bush supporters will no doubt argue that it is irrelevant what
> the rest of the world thinks, and it is their right to elect a
> dangerous moron if they choose, but they should at least be aware that
> this really is how the rest of the world views him (and by extension,
> those who elect him).
>

My whole take on this thread is that our administration is pretty F'IN
scary if it's got Jobst making offtopic posts.

Greg
--
Destroy your safe and happy lives
Before it is too late
The battles we fought were long and hard
Just not to be consumed by rock'n'roll
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post #4 of 282
6/26/04 at 3:35am
Thread Starter 

Re: I was misled

Greg T? writes:

>>> The ugly brutality of our administration is a huge blot on the
>>> nation. If you follow foreign news you could see haw bad we look
>>> in the eyes of the world. BBC news is mild compared to other
>>> continental news sources. I don't know what is being said in
>>> Asia.

>> Here in mild-mannered conservative Japan, the press is generally
>> pretty tame, but nevertheless I hear that Bush's approval rating
>> amongst the public has soared to the heady heights of 7%. That is
>> not a typo. Bush supporters will no doubt argue that it is
>> irrelevant what the rest of the world thinks, and it is their right
>> to elect a dangerous moron if they choose, but they should at least
>> be aware that this really is how the rest of the world views him
>> (and by extension, those who elect him).

> My whole take on this thread is that our administration is pretty
> F'IN scary if it's got Jobst making off topic posts.

This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent to
our well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our
democratic government and our nation's standing in world affairs.
Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in
the shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is
sinking to dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative
government.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
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post #5 of 282
6/26/04 at 4:55am

Re: I was misled

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:xe0Dc.18976$Fo4.247063@typhoon.sonic.net...
..

> This like other topics we might choose not to read is each reader's
> prerogative to skip or not. Off topic trouble arises when within a
> thread someone takes advantage of folks who are following the subject
> by introducing another agenda such as helmets under tire problems.
> That is not what is happening here.
>
Please feel free to post your ride-logs (over 30 paragraphs and 3,000 words
to surmount) to the political newsgroup of your choosing.
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post #6 of 282
6/26/04 at 2:00pm

Re: I was misled

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote
>
> This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent to
> our well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our
> democratic government and our nation's standing in world affairs.
> Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in
> the shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is
> sinking to dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative
> government.

I have to agree. I think we are very much at a major fork in the road in the
post cold war era, actions taken today will set the climate for decades to
come, just as the post WWII policy did. I think the administration is blowing
it, so do many (better qualified) others:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun16.html
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post #7 of 282
6/26/04 at 2:26pm

Re: I was misled

Peter Cole wrote:
> <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote
>
>>This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent to
>>our well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our
>>democratic government and our nation's standing in world affairs.
>>Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in
>>the shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is
>>sinking to dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative
>>government.
>
>
> I have to agree. I think we are very much at a major fork in the road in the
> post cold war era, actions taken today will set the climate for decades to
> come, just as the post WWII policy did. I think the administration is blowing
> it, so do many (better qualified) others:
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun16.html
>
>

I agree as well. I'll contribute the following which is the full text of
a speech by former Vice President Al Gore to the American Constitution
Society at Georgetown University on June 24.

http://alternet.org/election04/19047/

Bret
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post #8 of 282
6/26/04 at 3:09pm

Re: I was misled

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:01:07 GMT, "Skip"
<reply@newsgroup.invalid> wrote:

><jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
>news:0P8Dc.19053$Fo4.248264@typhoon.sonic.net...
>> This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent to our
>well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our democratic
>government and our nation's standing in world affairs.
>> Jobst Brandt
>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
>
>Sorry, Jobst. I have to disagree.
>
>Although I am a great admirer of your bicycling work (and you have worked
>with other members of my family as well -- "you da man" as they say. My
>father's custom Paramount was patterned after your Cinelli), this is
>off-topic.
>
>The topic is not "misled". "I was misled" is the thread. The topic is
>"rec.bicycles.misc" (or "rec.bicycles.tech" which is cross-posted).
>
>The issue of GW policies is of passionate interest -- but not in a bicycling
>forum. In the bicycling forum, it becomes garden-variety trolling or SPAM.
>
>> Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in the
>shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is sinking to
>dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative government.
>
>This is your tacit admission of inappropriateness to this forum. You are
>claiming that "greater good" supercedes the organized interest in bicycling
>topics.
>Please move to "rec.politics" or whatever forum exists for political
>discussion.
>
> - Skip La Fetra
>(the reply-to account at hotmail is active but refuses mail. Post here or
>add my initials ('fel') to the account name and it will get to me.)
>
>

Dear Skip,

On the other hand, look at how excited and interested so
many people are.

We rarely get this kind of action about crucial topics like
tire pressure.

You were so fascinated, for example, that you seem to have
posted the same reply twice. And here I am, chattering back
at you.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
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post #9 of 282
6/26/04 at 5:00pm

Re: I was misled

Bret Wade wrote:
>
> I agree as well. I'll contribute the following which is the full text
> of a speech by former Vice President Al Gore to the American
> Constitution Society at Georgetown University on June 24.
>
> http://alternet.org/election04/19047/

I saw a wonderful tape of Gore giving a speech advocating the overthrown of
Saddam, juxtaposed with his recent rants. Maybe someone should make a
"documentary" about it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/809168.stm (too lazy to actually
find speech, but this references it or something similar).

Bill "hypocrisy abounds" S.
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post #10 of 282
6/26/04 at 5:04pm
Thread Starter 

Re: I was misled

And once again:

http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1310344&l=42270

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
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post #11 of 282
6/27/04 at 7:01am

Re: I was misled

>This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent
>to our well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of our
>democratic government and our nation's standing in world affairs.
>Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses significance in
>the shadow of the deep moral depression into which our country is
>sinking to dictatorship in spite of the guise of representative
>government.

Jobst, I was in the lead when this war went down in terms of condemning
the action. I really wonder why you didn't say something then.

It seems to me that you missed the anvil and are simply reacting to
a lot of this secondhand Michael Moore crap.

Either you have the guts to stand up with the curtain and call the
foul or you are just posturing for history.

The fact is that we are killing terrorists, Iraq is a magnet for
them and it is a killing zone. Regardless of how you feel about the
war in general, the military forces of the United States are doing
their job with efficiency.

The same is true in Afghanistan.

This is not the optimal war, but it is the war we are in.

The war we have to deal with, that is.


--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>cwhitman@texastwr.utaustin.edu__________
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post #12 of 282
6/28/04 at 12:14am
Thread Starter 

Re: I was misled

Eric S. Sande writes:

>> This is NOT off topic. The topic is "Misled" and is more pertinent
>> to our well being than to acquiesce in an organized dismantling of
>> our democratic government and our nation's standing in world
>> affairs. Talking about bicycles is appropriate, but it loses
>> significance in the shadow of the deep moral depression into which
>> our country is sinking to dictatorship in spite of the guise of
>> representative government.

> Jobst, I was in the lead when this war went down in terms of
> condemning the action. I really wonder why you didn't say something
> then.

I don't understand what you mean by this. What was "in the lead"?

> It seems to me that you missed the anvil and are simply reacting to
> a lot of this secondhand Michael Moore crap.

I don't understand how Michael Moore got into this. The thread is
about the daily lies from the Bush administration that are cited in
the URL I offered. Those opposed to reading them reach for all sorts
of distractions or reply with ad hominems as you do. If you want to
add something credible to this thread you might point out what is in
error in reporting these quotes from GWB on the link I provided.
Calling it "crap" doesn't enhance your position. You seem to take a
tip from Mr. Cheney and his rude manner of speech when he runs out of
answers to questions of policy.

> Either you have the guts to stand up with the curtain and call the
> foul or you are just posturing for history.

Please put this in plain English. Dodging behind sports and stage
metaphors obscures what this is about similarly to the newspeak of
the Bushmen.

> The fact is that we are killing terrorists, Iraq is a magnet for
> them and it is a killing zone. Regardless of how you feel about the
> war in general, the military forces of the United States are doing
> their job with efficiency.

How did they get there? Where were they before we destroyed law and
order in Iraq by dismantling the military and police and then sit idly
by as anarchy and looting carried on for long enough to destroy most
of Iraq's resources. Then we give Halliburton a no-bid contract to
rebuild that while allowing them an open deal to charge what they see
fit for services they render, if any.

> The same is true in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan is a disaster. Who do you think is in charge there? Just
because it isn't the Taliban, at least on the surface, it isn't what
the USA claimed would be there. It seems the clock has been set back
20 years ago.

> This is not the optimal war, but it is the war we are in.

....but it is the war we initiated and for what purpose?

> The war we have to deal with, that is.

"What do you mean WE, white man?" as Tonto so appropriately would have
said.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
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post #13 of 282
6/28/04 at 12:46am

Re: I was misled


> How did they get there? Where were they before we destroyed law and
> order in Iraq by dismantling the military and police and then sit idly
> by as anarchy and looting carried on for long enough to destroy most
> of Iraq's resources. Then we give Halliburton a no-bid contract to
> rebuild that while allowing them an open deal to charge what they see
> fit for services they render, if any.

"Destroyed law and order????" You gotta be kidding me! The people in Iraq
were practically living under martial law that been since around 1980. Law
and order was enforced through the use of political terror, akin to the
Stalin years in the USSR! The only allowable avenue for political activity
was for Sunni Muslims via the Ba'ath party. Kurds were systematically
relocated (another version of ethnic cleansing) and Shia Arabs were killed
at far greater rates than are happening now for less legitiamte reasons.
Looting and exploitation were the primary activities of the Ba'ath party
thugs -- but, I guess "the trains ran on time" so it was all okay. Good
Lord, the coutnry was run by a street gang for 30 years. For a group that
screams repression over imagined slights to our precious freedoms, much of
the anti-war crowd seems quite content to accept modern facism in other
areas. As far as the US destroying "most of Iraq's resources", that's just
outright hyperbole. And yes, Halliburton -- actually KBR, a subsidiary
company -- does provide a variety of services, which a quick google search
will confirm. I could also provide a few personal testimonials as well. Of
course acknowledging that would undercut your cute little quips.

Argue the war, argue the policy -- that's fine. But don't pretend that
things were swell and wonderful in Iraq before we came along. Maybe you
need to get your head out of the left wing rags you're reading (SJ Merc News
and SF Chronicle, IIRC) and get some unfettered facts about life in Iraq.
Perspective, Mr Brandt, perspective. Believe it or not it's not all car
bombs and prison torture over there. It's not Des Moine, and it's
dangerous, but people don't get killed there anymore for what they say and
think -- unless they're caught by the "inurgents", that is.
>
>> The same is true in Afghanistan.
>
> Afghanistan is a disaster. Who do you think is in charge there? Just
> because it isn't the Taliban, at least on the surface, it isn't what
> the USA claimed would be there. It seems the clock has been set back
> 20 years ago.

Perhaps you should read a little on the impact of the Taliban on the culture
and civic life in Afghanistan. You further display your ignorance with
comments like that. Stike to bicycle wheels. Of course you've emerged as
quite an effective troll as well.

Tom
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post #14 of 282
6/28/04 at 12:55am
Thread Starter 

Re: I was misled

Skip who? writes:

>> No one is forcing you or anyone else to read this thread. If you
>> have a half-competent newsreader, you can kill by thread and never
>> see it again. End of problem.

> End of problem in the sense that SPAM filters are the cure to SPAM.
> I am well aware of the technology and have not stepped in until now.
> When I go to "rec.bicycles.misc" I expect to see bicycling topics.

> Yes, it is easy to throw out the "junk mail". It is "junk mail"
> nevertheless.

> I do care about politics (and agree with many of Jobst's points).
> But in this bicycling forum it remains inappropriate.

As I said, this is no time to say I don't care if the fire alarm is
going and people are pointing out that there is lots of smoke in the
building, I want to focus on the business of bicycling. This is not
junk mail unless you think that democracy in our country will survive
even if you don't guard it.

>> you can kill the thread

> True, but (hypothetically) there are many possible off-topic
> threads. At least 20 about politics, 100 on scams (get-rich-quick,
> Vi@gra, *****ian scam, etc), fraudulent (fix my credit NOW), etc.
> Killing threads one-by-one causes people to abandon the notesgroup
> altogether.

By that, you either like what the Bushmen are doing or you don't give
a damn what they do. You can rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic
(talk bicycles) as much as you want but it will not save the ship. As
you see, those who acquiesce in the way this country is being run have
unfailing faith that our system of government is incorruptible and
therefore defend the disaster that is occurring. That isn't just
militarily, but economically, horrendous national debt as has never
been seen, operating the nation with huge deficit spending,
dissolution of the bill of rights and international insults to our
former allies. Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq have become
the bywords for US Justice in the world press.

> Tim, do you wish to wade through a (hypothetical future situation
> where this is out of control) 50-60 off-topic threads to see the
> ones you are interested in? I think not. That is why newsgroups
> have top-level topics. Otherwise there would be ONE top-level
> newsgroup and anybody could post anything there.

You'll need a better straw man than that to defend GWB and his team.
You must realize that it is the prerogative of someone in most major
newsgroups to introduce this subject to get people to realize the
enormity of the disaster into which we have been led or misled.

> If it is off-topic (e.g., not at all related to bicycling, DO NOT
> POST HERE).

As I said, you will need to do more than that to cover for what is
happening with our nation. I take it you don't want readers to see
these things. Treat them like mushrooms...

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
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post #15 of 282
6/28/04 at 12:56am

Re: I was misled

Eric S. Sande:

> The fact is that we are killing terrorists, Iraq is a magnet for
> them and it is a killing zone. Regardless of how you feel about the
> war in general, the military forces of the United States are doing
> their job with efficiency.

You mean the US military forces are _killing_ with efficiency. This
much is true, and one would hope so if one were to look at US military
spending.

However, the US military killing terrorists with efficiency is utter
nonsense. If you have this belief, why don't you back up your claim by
comparing the number of terrorists killed in Iraq with the number of
civilians (non-terrorists) killed by US fire.

Come, I'm sure figures are of interest to many.

> The same is true in Afghanistan.

Baseless proclamation. You don't know jack.

> This is not the optimal war, but it is the war we are in.

There's such a thing as optimal war? I find it hard to believe you
"were in the lead" against the war, when you know nothing about it.

> The war we have to deal with, that is.

Who's we?
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