Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)
Mark Hickey writes:
>>> I agree that those who are responsible will be held accountable.
>> This time the military is not looking for Lt. Cally, they are looking
>> for Pvt Guilty while the generals claim they saw nothing. Not only
>> did they see it, they instigated it.
> ... and you know that how, exactly (other than possibly the one female
> reservist general who was supposed to be in charge)? I thought one of
> the principles of justice we're trying to protect here was the
> "innocent until proven guilty thing".
I hope you are not avoiding hearing about this the way Rummy and the
Bushman claim to have been. More and more is coming to light about
who knew and who didn't want to know. International Red Cross
reported extensively about these atrocities in detailed written
reports, including names of people involved, a year ago through
official channels to London and Washington.
Not knowing required diverting ones eyes from the cover letters and
where the documents originated. To me that is a solid sign that top
military officials didn't want these reports to interfere with the
"good results" they were getting in their interrogations. The report
had medical assessments of the cause of death and that these occurred
in detention under military control.
>>> But to assume that means every time some private in the army does
>>> something improper we need to eliminate his or her chain of
>>> command up to and including the president is a little over the
>>> top, don't you think? If we sign up for that program it'll be
>>> hard to know who the president is on any given day. Heck, we'll
>>> probably get an opportunity to hold the job for 15 minutes
>>> ourselves eventually.
>> I see you don't understand management. Let me repeat. In this
>> area bicyclists were harassed by Sheriff deputies who wrote plenty
>> of tickets. One spot in particular was a T-intersection with a
>> three way stop. Straight through bicyclists passing on the
>> non-intersecting side of the street, when there was no traffic far
>> and wide, would be cited for failure to stop while equestrians
>> could ride merrily through on the same shoulder.
> I guess I don't understand management if you describe it that way.
>> All this action ceased when we got a new sheriff and suddenly the
>> patrol cars became our friends. That is how effective management
>> is felt at the lowest echelons. The tone of prison guards is
>> molded by the instructions and attitudes of superiors, what they
>> encourage and what is rewarded. Managers who say they didn't know
>> are either incompetent or outright lying. Take your choice with
> So your minimum standard of performance for the Secretary of Defense
> is that he knows precisely what every one of the hundreds of
> thousands of his soldiers are doing all the time. He's gonna be a
> very busy guy. Do you suspect the CEO of HP knows what every one of
> his (or is it her?) employees is doing this week? It wouldn't be
> any more difficult (probably considerably less). If you "understand
> management" you'll know the answer to my question.
You may not have heard but the Bush administration has turned a deaf
ear and blind eye to anything that does not fit their imagined
scenario of freeing and democratizing Iraq, a nation that would love
to sell oil to the United States. It was done under false pretense
(aka lies) and it is going down the drain under those same pretenses.
Unfortunately none of the principals, including Tony Blair, look to
history and the same debacle in 1917 when the British tried the same
thing and failed miserably for the same reasons.
>>> The system will allow for those who "perpetrated the atrocities"
>>> to be punished - rightfully so. It'll also serve as an object
>>> lesson to the Iraqis and to those in the region.
>> To whom?
> I'll type slower... "to the Iraqis and those in the region". They're
> not used to accountability.
What does Iraqi accountability have to do with this. There is no
Iraqi government on which to paste that label. You think a show trial
will placate the muslim population of the world. The underbelly of US
brutality has been seen and we have seen it here at home in police
beatings and killings of unarmed people.
>>> In that regard, it's a good thing.
>> This seems to me a non-sequitur. Could you link that with what is
>> good about this and what it is doing for Guantanamo prison? The
>> principals of the Abu Ghraib prison came from warm ups in
>> Guantanamo where similar stories abound.
Try to Google "Iraq prison deaths".
> Sure. They'll see that we really DO take justice seriously when the
> folks who were responsible get punished. That's not the way it's
> worked for 30 years in Iraq.
If you believe that then you probably believe we won the Viet Nam war
and that the problems encountered were only a bunch of peaceniks in US
cities. What is it from the last 30 years that we are going to set
straight? I hope you notice that more civilians and military Iraqis
have died in this campaign than in the last 30 years of Sadam Hussein
civilian rule. That isn't counting the dead in desert storm or those
we instigated by arming Sadam Hussein in the war against Iran.
Maybe you missed the stories of tank commanders driving over desert
trenches of untrained Iraqi "cannon fodder" and grinding them into the
ground by turning donuts with their tank treads. These American
troops will be suffering from nightmares of having been part of that
for the rest of their lives while families in Iraq will not forget the
accountability we showed.