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post #46 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

Eric S. Sande writes:

>> These American troops will be suffering from nightmares of having
>> been part of that for the rest of their lives while families in
>> Iraq will `not forget the accountability we showed.


> War is Hell. But we're in one, and there isn't any percentage in
> undermining effort when it comes to the final objective, that being
> the destruction of Al Qaeda and the securing of the oil reserves.


Maybe you haven't followed the news but Al Qaeda is stronger, has more
allies, and is a larger threat today than before the onset of the
Iraqi war. You cannot destroy Al Qaeda with military action. It is
rooted in suppression of relatively defenseless people who have no
other way of responding than to end their lives in a desperate
statement against their real and perceived enemy of a foreign
government and religion. We are the driving force behind Al Qaeda.
The concept of "War against terrorism" is denial of this fact. Ariel
Sharon is living proof of that.

> Neither of which is trivial, strategically we have to look at a
> conquered Iraq as a bonus point vice Afghanistan, which is not
> exactly critical but does give us a military presence along the
> (nuclear armed) Pakistan border.


"Give me liberty or give me death!" the oft quoted words of our kind
of freedom fighter, yet we don't recognize that in others. We are at
that juncture except that we don't recognize that we are the unjust
enemy that inspired these words today.

> Good victory points.


> Why we invaded Iraq is open to question, any junior high school war
> gamer would have avoided that situation on the basis of too
> expensive.


Hubris and oil!

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
post #47 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

Sat, 15 May 2004 17:10:17 GMT,
<Z9spc.11412$Fo4.148827@typhoon.sonic.net>,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote, in part:
\snip
>
>"Give me liberty or give me death!" the oft quoted words of our kind
>of freedom fighter, yet we don't recognize that in others. We are at
>that juncture except that we don't recognize that we are the unjust
>enemy that inspired these words today.


To maintain a secular Iraq with a foreign occupation force, "not as
bad as Saddam", or Hulagu Khan, isn't going to be bad enough.

In one of Karl Marx's more lucid statements, he is reported to have
said, "History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce."

http://www.khilafah.com/home/categor...D=9524&TagID=2
--
zk
post #48 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>
> Eric S. Sande writes:


> Maybe you haven't followed the news but Al Qaeda is stronger, has more
> allies, and is a larger threat today than before the onset of the
> Iraqi war. You cannot destroy Al Qaeda with military action.


Seems the USA bombed the Al Qaeda training camps to dust in Afghanistan...
seems the 9/11 master mind, that beheaded the Wall Street Journal writer is
sittin' in a jail cell. Seems a drone blew up 6 key Al Qaeda leaders in
Yemen. Seems Bin Laden and his Egyptian lunatic side-kick is hiding in a
cave these days.

No... the USA has to be on the offensive... with military action. The very
very bad people need to be all brought to justice <pause> or killed.

fwiw
post #49 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

Billy Bigelow writes:

>> Maybe you haven't followed the news but Al Qaeda is stronger, has
>> more allies, and is a larger threat today than before the onset of
>> the Iraqi war. You cannot destroy Al Qaeda with military action.


> Seems the USA bombed the Al Qaeda training camps to dust in
> Afghanistan... seems the 9/11 master mind, that beheaded the Wall
> Street Journal writer is sittin' in a jail cell. Seems a drone blew
> up 6 key Al Qaeda leaders in Yemen. Seems Bin Laden and his
> Egyptian lunatic side-kick is hiding in a cave these days.


> No... the USA has to be on the offensive... with military action.
> The very very bad people need to be all brought to justice <pause>
> or killed.


So if all this is improving world safety from Muslim activist, why are
things getting worse in Iraq and security problems growing. How do
you explain the Israeli-Palestinian situation that has followed your
military response for the last few decades.

Have you considered "Why they hate us" enough to commit suicide and
why they see their own lives as expendable in this confrontation?
Study the crusades.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
post #50 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

>We are the driving force behind Al Qaeda.

That's deep, Jobst. I have no argument with it other than to suggest
that we need to come to terms with our enemy and end the killing.

Negotiation with "terrorists" is not our way.

And I'm not a spokesman for Ariel Sharon.

You will be aware that Al Qaeda offered negotiation with the EU after
the Madrid train station bombing, it was rejected.

It is possible that a dialogue could be established with these people.

That would be a good first step.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>cwhitman@texastwr.utaustin.edu__________
post #51 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

Eric S. Sande writes:

>> We are the driving force behind Al Qaeda.


> That's deep, Jobst. I have no argument with it other than to
> suggest that we need to come to terms with our enemy and end the
> killing.


> Negotiation with "terrorists" is not our way.


This is not a negotiation situation. 9-11 was a response to the USA
financing of demeaning and humiliation of primarily Palestinians and
secondarily support of dictators like the Shah Pahlavi and Saddam
Hussein just as we supported Fulgencio Battista in Cuba and Trujillo
and Manuel Noriega in Panama and the assassination of Salvador Allende
to be replaced by Augusto Pinochet:

http://www.neravt.com/left/allende.htm
http://tinyurl.com/2np65

> And I'm not a spokesman for Ariel Sharon.


I am not either but our enemies in the middle east know that Sharon is
nothing without support from Washington.

> You will be aware that Al Qaeda offered negotiation with the EU after
> the Madrid train station bombing, it was rejected.


What is there to negotiate? The USA needs to back of world domination
under the guise of liberating people from their government and
religion, when actually business interests are the driving force. In
Vietnam it was suspected offshore oil.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/vietnam.html

> It is possible that a dialogue could be established with these people.
> That would be a good first step.


You see what sort of dialog would ensue, considering the cover-up
about the prisoner treatment where "pfc guilty" is being brought to
trial. When a ship runs aground in port the captain is relieved of
duty. When this sort of interrogation occurs in prison, officers
fairly high in the chain of command are guilty along with the top man
who denies knowing anything about it. Liar liar pants on fire, is
about all people outside the USA can say. This is in face of
international Red Cross detailed reports.

The situation has reached a state that is difficult to recover. To me
it is apparent that the Bush administration cannot resolve the crisis
without admitting huge errors in judgment and diplomacy and lies that
got us into the situation. That alone means we must change leaders in
November if not sooner, but that still does not get us out of where we
are. There is no military solution. That should be clear to anyone
who can read history and project the course we are on.

We have dismantled the Iraqi military, police and other government
functions, and cannot turn the nation over to anyone to run it if we
pull out. What would follow is mayhem worse than what occurred after
the defeat of the army. There was destruction and looting in
magnitudes not seen even in WWII. This was allowed to occur by
Mr. Rumsfeld to "punish the Iraqis" as if they had a hand in the
causing anything that affected the USA.

I spent time in the US Army and the subject of civil order after
military victory was high priority. Highly important after defeating
an enemy force in cities was re-establishing to law and order. What
happened in Iraq is outlined in military texts in detail. If Rummy
says he didn't know or expect that, then he is unbelievably uneducated
or lying.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
post #52 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

Eric S. Sande writes:

>> We are the driving force behind Al Qaeda.


> That's deep, Jobst. I have no argument with it other than to
> suggest that we need to come to terms with our enemy and end the
> killing.


> Negotiation with "terrorists" is not our way.


This is not a negotiation situation. 9-11 was a response to the USA
financing of demeaning and humiliation of primarily Palestinians and
secondarily support of dictators like the Shah Pahlavi and Saddam
Hussein just as we supported Fulgencio Battista in Cuba and Trujillo
and Manuel Noriega in Panama and the assassination of Salvador Allende
to be replaced by Augusto Pinochet:

http://www.neravt.com/left/allende.htm
http://tinyurl.com/2np65

> And I'm not a spokesman for Ariel Sharon.


I am not either but our enemies in the middle east know that Sharon is
nothing without support from Washington.

> You will be aware that Al Qaeda offered negotiation with the EU after
> the Madrid train station bombing, it was rejected.


What is there to negotiate? The USA needs to back of world domination
under the guise of liberating people from their government and
religion, when actually business interests are the driving force. In
Vietnam it was suspected offshore oil.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/vietnam.html

> It is possible that a dialogue could be established with these people.
> That would be a good first step.


You see what sort of dialog would ensue, considering the cover-up
about the prisoner treatment where "pfc guilty" is being brought to
trial. When a ship runs aground in port the captain is relieved of
duty. When this sort of interrogation occurs in prison, officers
fairly high in the chain of command are guilty along with the top man
who denies knowing anything about it. Liar liar pants on fire, is
about all people outside the USA can say. This is in face of
international Red Cross detailed reports.

The situation has reached a state that is difficult to recover. To me
it is apparent that the Bush administration cannot resolve the crisis
without admitting huge errors in judgment and diplomacy and lies that
got us into the situation. That alone means we must change leaders in
November if not sooner, but that still does not get us out of where we
are. There is no military solution. That should be clear to anyone
who can read history and project the course we are on.

We have dismantled the Iraqi military, police and other government
functions, and cannot turn the nation over to anyone to run it if we
pull out. What would follow is mayhem worse than what occurred after
the defeat of the army. There was destruction and looting in
magnitudes not seen even in WWII. This was allowed to occur by
Mr. Rumsfeld to "punish the Iraqis" as if they had a hand in the
causing anything that affected the USA.

I spent time in the US Army and the subject of civil order after
military victory was high priority. Highly important after defeating
an enemy force in cities was re-establishing to law and order. What
happened in Iraq is outlined in military texts in detail. If Rummy
says he didn't know or expect that, then he is unbelievably uneducated
or lying.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
post #53 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

>The situation has reached a state that is difficult to recover.

No ****.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>cwhitman@texastwr.utaustin.edu__________
post #54 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

>Recover what, exactly?

I think Jobst was alluding to terrorists in the same sense I was,
there wasn't any special reference implied.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>cwhitman@texastwr.utaustin.edu__________
post #55 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

>Recover what, exactly?

I think Jobst was alluding to terrorists in the same sense I was,
there wasn't any special reference implied.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>cwhitman@texastwr.utaustin.edu__________
post #56 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

"Eric S. Sande" <esande@erols.com> wrote:

>You will be aware that Al Qaeda offered negotiation with the EU after
>the Madrid train station bombing, it was rejected.
>
>It is possible that a dialogue could be established with these people.
>
>That would be a good first step.


Great idea. Teach the radical fringe elements of the world that if
they cause enough damage, we'll give them an inordinate amount of
power to influence our society.

There are only two ways to deal with the terrorists.

1) Kill them
2) End the brainwashing of the young terrorist candidates before they
are convinced that strapping explosives around their chests and going
for a bus ride is a good idea. The Arab media / leadership wants to
continue to blame the US and Israel for everything that's wrong with
their culture, when in fact the main problem is the Arab media /
leadership.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
post #57 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

Eric S. Sande writes:

>> The situation has reached a state that is difficult to recover.


> No ****.


The point is that no one has a plausible exit strategy and that we are
a lot worse off in world security now than before removal of Saddam
Hussein, not to mention the US economy. Print money!

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
post #58 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:k_Lpc.11499$Fo4.150245@typhoon.sonic.net...
> Eric S. Sande writes:
>
> >> The situation has reached a state that is difficult to recover.

>
> > No ****.

>
> The point is that no one has a plausible exit strategy and that we are
> a lot worse off in world security now than before removal of Saddam
> Hussein, not to mention the US economy. Print money!
>
> Jobst Brandt
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org


This whole situation is driving me mad. All the years of war games and
"what if" scenarios and they still went to war with just the expectation
that we would be showered with flowers and kisses and had no backup plan if
things did not go that way. The very fact that Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld
and Ashcroft (I don't think Bush has any real foreign affairs understanding
beyond good-guy bad-guy) truly seem to believe that we could easily impose
our system of gov't on a dictatorship and have it go well staggers the mind.
They REALLY do not seem to have gotten past that pie in the sky concept.
Now the neo-cons think that staying the course actually exhibits some sort
of moral fiber. Let's sum up, bad war plan, bad execution, bad follow up =
ticket for re-electability. If this Bush-league is granted a 2nd term by
this country I think I may have to look for a home in New Zealand. Sorry
for stoking the flames of this off-topic venture. Truly this belongs in
wreck-govt!

Tim McTeague
post #59 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> You see what sort of dialog would ensue, considering the cover-up
> about the prisoner treatment where "pfc guilty" is being brought to
> trial. When a ship runs aground in port the captain is relieved of
> duty. When this sort of interrogation occurs in prison, officers
> fairly high in the chain of command are guilty along with the top man
> who denies knowing anything about it.


Either the top brass knew what was going on (more likely in my
opinion) and should be censured for approving of the actions at the
prisons, or they didn't and they should be equally censured for the
breakdown in the chain of command which allows the troops to run amok.

--
R.

<> Richard Brockie "Categorical statements
<> The tall blond one. always cause trouble."
<> rmbusenet@brockie.org.uk
post #60 of 346

Re: Why they hate us, was (Re: funny things to do on a bike)

Doug Purdy wrote:
> And this is in a bike newsgroup because???


Whaddya, new?

Bill "resigned to it" S.
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