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Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

post #1 of 81
Thread Starter 
*Reposted, this time to correct groups*

(Prefatory note to Brent: Yes, I'm aware there are many badly-behaved
motorists. No, I don't think they should get off scot-free, either. Yes,
I'm aware you're vehemently opposed to bicycle and rider registration. No,
I don't buy your putative reasons for it. Yes, I know you have to respond
to this post. No, I won't get in a pissing contest with you.)

I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull over a cyclist for
running a red light...talk about shock and awe! I've never seen the likes
of this before. The cop ordered the cyclist to dismount, walk his bike to
the corner and park it, then lectured the guy for a few minutes ("Red
lights mean STOP, whether you're in a car or on a bike or on your feet!
It's the same rules of the road for you as for everyone else who uses
it!"). The guy was arguing that he bicycles in this area all the time,
there were no cars coming, etc. The cop (surprise...) told the guy he was
just warning him this time rather than writing a ticket, and eventually
let him ride off.

Now, it did my heart a lot of good to see and hear this. There are way too
many badly-behaved bicyclists in Toronto, as there are in every other
city. "Hey, lookit me! I'm a car! WHUP, now I'm a pedestrian! WHUP! Now
I'm neither! Hey, lookit me riding on the wrong side of the street! After
dark! Without lights or reflectors! Wearing all black! And if you hit me,
it'll be all your fault, neener neener neener! Whoah, sucks to be you, red
lights are only for cars!" etc.

I'd like to see a lot more of this kind of police activity, but pragmatic
questions pretty much scotch the idea. There's no law requiring
registration of bicycles or carrying an operator's license -- or, for that
matter, any form of identification at all -- while riding one. Should be,
but isn't. So what if the cop stops someone who hasn't got ID? What,
exactly, can the cop do? And even if s/he succeeds in writing a ticket,
what's to motivate the recipient to pay it? There'll be no demerit points
on his driver's license (which s/he may not even have). There'll be no
increase in insurance premiums (which s/he's not required to carry).
There'll be no denial of renewed registration (also not required).

Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write tickets and impound
bicycles until the ticket is paid.

-Stern (pedestrian/cyclist/driver)
post #2 of 81

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:11:20 -0400, "Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1>
wrote:

>*Reposted, this time to correct groups*


>I was walking down Bloor St when I saw...


>Now, it did my heart a lot of good to see and hear this. There are way too
>many badly-behaved bicyclists in Toronto, as there are in every other
>city.
>
>Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write tickets and impound
>bicycles until the ticket is paid.
>
>-Stern (pedestrian/cyclist/driver)


I hear your momma was picked up on that same corner. Only, not for bad
biking behavior.

-B
post #3 of 81

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

In article <Pine.GSO.4.58.0406120010490.8911@alumni.engin.umich.edu>, Daniel J. Stern wrote:

> I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull over a cyclist for
> running a red light...talk about shock and awe!


Quite different from my experience. I stop and the cop runs the red.

> Now, it did my heart a lot of good to see and hear this.


The only times I've been stopped by a cop is when they insisted I
could not use the roadway but had to teeter on the couple inches
of pavement to the right on the while line and left of the gravel.

> I'd like to see a lot more of this kind of police activity, but pragmatic
> questions pretty much scotch the idea.


I'd like to see for ALL vehicles.

> There's no law requiring
> registration of bicycles or carrying an operator's license -- or, for that
> matter, any form of identification at all -- while riding one.


This doesn't prevent a ticket from being written and legally binding.


> Should be,
> but isn't. So what if the cop stops someone who hasn't got ID? What,
> exactly, can the cop do? And even if s/he succeeds in writing a ticket,
> what's to motivate the recipient to pay it? There'll be no demerit points
> on his driver's license (which s/he may not even have). There'll be no
> increase in insurance premiums (which s/he's not required to carry).
> There'll be no denial of renewed registration (also not required).


Because a warrant will be issued for his arrest. This will turn up at
a bad time like when he gets pulled over for driving 70mph on an empty
expressway at 2am.

> Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write tickets and impound
> bicycles until the ticket is paid.


Autos first. It would kill the speeding ticket industry. And btw, cops
are already known to do just that, cept it's with anyone riding a bike
within reach when there is some sort of protest or convention going on.
post #4 of 81

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

Too many to read every reply, I hope this wasn't touched on. We here in
Florida have had police crack downs in the past giving cyclists tickets for
not stopping, as you say "cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as
anyone else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are required to
do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can still get you a ticket IF you
fail to put one foot fully on the ground. Comments?

Bob

"The Lindbergh Baby" <johngrabowski1@die.spammersearthlink.net> wrote in
message news:40CACFCE.8030206@die.spammersearthlink.net...
> Daniel J. Stern wrote:
> > *Reposted, this time to correct groups*
> >
> > (Prefatory note to Brent: Yes, I'm aware there are many badly-behaved
> > motorists. No, I don't think they should get off scot-free, either.

Yes,
> > I'm aware you're vehemently opposed to bicycle and rider registration.

No,
> > I don't buy your putative reasons for it. Yes, I know you have to

respond
> > to this post. No, I won't get in a pissing contest with you.)
> >
> > I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull over a cyclist

for
> > running a red light...talk about shock and awe! I've never seen the

likes
> > of this before. The cop ordered the cyclist to dismount, walk his bike

to
> > the corner and park it, then lectured the guy for a few minutes ("Red
> > lights mean STOP, whether you're in a car or on a bike or on your feet!
> > It's the same rules of the road for you as for everyone else who uses
> > it!"). The guy was arguing that he bicycles in this area all the time,
> > there were no cars coming, etc. The cop (surprise...) told the guy he

was
> > just warning him this time rather than writing a ticket, and eventually
> > let him ride off.

>
> Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after they ran a red
> light? Hmmmm??
>
> Unless the driver was a politician or fellow cop, I doubt it.
>
> And I love the argument from the bicyclist: there were no cars coming.
> How the frig does he know? Is he psychic? There were no cars coming
> because he lived to tell about it. Had there been cars coming, they'd
> be scraping him off the street...
>
> ...And the gene pool would be 0.000000000000000001% better.
>
>
>
> John
>
> --
> To reply, remove "die.spammers" from address
>
>
> Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven
>
post #5 of 81

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

Bob Newman wrote:
> Too many to read every reply, I hope this wasn't touched on. We here in
> Florida have had police crack downs in the past giving cyclists tickets for
> not stopping, as you say "cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as
> anyone else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are required to
> do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can still get you a ticket IF you
> fail to put one foot fully on the ground. Comments?


Sounds like the usual over-enforcement directed at auto drivers, where the
cop says you "didn't stop" if you didn't wait 5 seconds before proceeding.
The law needs to recognize that when your car rocks back on its springs,
you've stopped.
post #6 of 81

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

"<<<<<< ]] gun_dog99 [[ >>>>>>" wrote:

>
> stop. Also many states have provisions for cyclists, if there is no traffic
> at the light the cyclist can proceed due to the fact that bicycles may not
> trip the sensor to make the light change.


Applies to all vehicles. If a signal is not working properly, one may
proceed with caution. A vehicle not tripping a sensor indicates a
siognal not working properly.
post #7 of 81
Thread Starter 

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Bob Newman wrote:

> Florida have had police crack downs in the past giving cyclists tickets for
> not stopping, as you say "cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as
> anyone else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are required to
> do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can still get you a ticket IF you
> fail to put one foot fully on the ground. Comments?


That seems silly and pecksnifian. For a well-balanced rider and bicycle,
It's perfectly possible to come to the kind of complete and adequate stop
that a stop sign requires without putting a foot fully on the ground.

-Stern
post #8 of 81
Thread Starter 

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, The Lindbergh Baby wrote:

> > it!"). The guy was arguing that he bicycles in this area all the time,
> > there were no cars coming, etc. The cop (surprise...) told the guy he was
> > just warning him this time rather than writing a ticket, and eventually
> > let him ride off.

>
> Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after they ran a red
> light? Hmmmm?? Unless the driver was a politician or fellow cop, I
> doubt it.


Hence my "(surprise...)".

> And I love the argument from the bicyclist: there were no cars coming.
> How the frig does he know?


He just, y'know, *knows!* Shut up, he does too! Does too does too does
TOO!

(In fact, Bloor street is busy 24 hours a day. There are *ALWAYS* cars
coming from three directions at the particular intersection this guy
blew.)

-Stern
post #9 of 81
Thread Starter 

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Daniel T. wrote:

> >"Hey, lookit me! I'm a car! WHUP, now I'm a pedestrian! WHUP! Now
> >I'm neither! Hey, lookit me riding on the wrong side of the street! After
> >dark! Without lights or reflectors! Wearing all black! And if you hit me,
> >it'll be all your fault, neener neener neener! Whoah, sucks to be you, red
> >lights are only for cars!" etc.

>
> You sound upset because the bicyclest is allowed to do things an
> automobile driver is not allowed to do


No, see, that's just it: Bicyclists *AREN'T* allowed to do things (like
run red lights) that cars aren't allowed to do. The guy who inspired my
original post got ordered off his bike and lectured by a cop; sounded like
next time the same cop sees him do the same thing, it'll be a ticket.

> I'm new to this car vs bicycle debate


That much is obvious. Such a "car vs. bicycle debate" is pointless.
Roadway safety is EVERY road user's job, whether they be on foot, on a
bike, on rollerblades, in a car, on a motorcycle...


> How much property damage can a bicycle do compaired to a car?


"Compared". Quite a bit, depending on how you define "cause". When a
bicyclist touches-off a multi-vehicle incident, the total tab in injuries
and damages can be quite large.

> Can DUI bicyclests ram through the wall of the local McDonald's killing
> and injuring happy meal eaters?


They can ram through busy intersections against the light, causing
multiple collisions as drivers attempt to avoid hitting them. Different
venue, same effect.

> Isn't it true that a bicycle is inherently safer to opperate than a car?


Probably not.


> you claim that the rules that bicyclest must obey are "unenforceable"
> because there is no license to revoke, insurance premium to jack up or
> points to accrue.


That's right.

-Stern
post #10 of 81
Thread Starter 

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Tom Keats wrote:

> > They can ram through busy intersections against the light, causing
> > multiple collisions as drivers attempt to avoid hitting them.
> > Different venue, same effect.


> I've heard this point raised in the course of discussion before, but
> I've never seen nor heard of actual incidents where this has occurred.


'cause the cyclist, having caused mayhem, simply decides he's a
pedestrian, makes a 90-degree turn and cruises away from the scene. Did
anyone get his license plate? Oh that's right...he DOESN'T HAVE TO HAVE
ONE!
post #11 of 81

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

>tomk2003@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)

asked:

>> They (meaning cyclists... ed.) can ram through busy intersections against

the light, causing
>> multiple collisions as drivers attempt to avoid hitting them. Different
>> venue, same effect.

>
>I've heard this point raised in the course of discussion before,
>but I've never seen nor heard of actual incidents where this
>has occurred. Has anyone? And if so, how often does it happen?


Specifically cyclists? No. But when I was in patrol I investigated literally
hundreds of crashes that were caused by a third party's disregard for traffic
rules and saw dozens of similiar circumstances with my own eyes. Almost without
exception, those third parties just kept right on going. Unless it was one of
those times that I *saw* the crash that is. Those people I stopped, returned
them to the scene, listed them as involved parties on the crash report, and
issued them tickets. Sometimes I miss patrol. <g>
I think there are two main reasons that there aren't more documented cases of a
cyclist causing a crash. First, unless the cop *sees* it he's not going to list
the cyclist on the face of the report and most stats are gathered from the face
of the report. Second, in comparison to motor vehicle traffic there really
aren't that many cyclists on the road. It's rather like, how many crashes has
anyone heard of that were caused by UPS delivery trucks? Not that many I'd
wager and it's *not* because all UPS drivers are careful conscientious drivers
that always obey the traffic laws.

Regards,
Bob Hunt
post #12 of 81

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

It is not overzealous. It has been taken to court. That is the way the law
reads.

--
Bob

"John David Galt" <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote in message
news:caerhf$l2e$3@blue.rahul.net...
> Bob Newman wrote:
> > Too many to read every reply, I hope this wasn't touched on. We here in
> > Florida have had police crack downs in the past giving cyclists tickets

for
> > not stopping, as you say "cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws

as
> > anyone else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are

required to
> > do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can still get you a ticket IF

you
> > fail to put one foot fully on the ground. Comments?

>
> Sounds like the usual over-enforcement directed at auto drivers, where the
> cop says you "didn't stop" if you didn't wait 5 seconds before proceeding.
> The law needs to recognize that when your car rocks back on its springs,
> you've stopped.
>
post #13 of 81

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

Daniel T. wrote:

> The fact is,
> bicyclists don't have to obey the same traffic laws as cars,


That's fiction, not fact.

> otherwise
> they would be getting pulled over and fined.


Which has nothing to do with it. Just because a law isn't enforced
doesn't mean that the law doesn't exist. Cyclists are supposed to
follow the rules of the road just like a driver does.
post #14 of 81
Thread Starter 

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Daniel T. wrote:

> The fact is, bicyclists don't have to obey the same traffic laws as
> cars


Sorry, that's just plain incorrect. Check your local laws.

> otherwise they would be getting pulled over and fined.


Well, then, I guess marijuana must be legal, then, because I smelled/saw
someone smoking it at a party a few weeks ago, and he didn't get picked up
by the cops. I guess speeding must be legal, too, 'cause most people
disregard the speed limit on the freeways around here. Lack of enforcement
does NOT imply legality. To think otherwise is stunningly simpleminded.

-Stern
post #15 of 81

Re: Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

In article <Pine.GSO.4.58.0406120010490.8911@alumni.engin.umich.edu>,
Daniel J. Stern <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> There's no law requiring
>registration of bicycles or carrying an operator's license -- or, for that
>matter, any form of identification at all -- while riding one. Should be,
>but isn't. So what if the cop stops someone who hasn't got ID? What,
>exactly, can the cop do?


Presumably the same thing the cop can do when arresting someone for
jaywalking or other illegal activity, and that person doesn't have ID.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
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