Track riders on the road

I don't think there are seperate sets of skills. Experienced track
riders have a leg-up because they have less fear, more trust in their
own bike handling, and are far more confident when aiming the
handlebars. They also seem better able to navigate their way through
gaps that road riders would normally avoid.

We used to call it "Track smarts", and only trackies seemed to have it.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I don't think there are seperate sets of skills. Experienced track
> riders have a leg-up because they have less fear, more trust in their
> own bike handling, and are far more confident when aiming the
> handlebars. They also seem better able to navigate their way through
> gaps that road riders would normally avoid.
>
> We used to call it "Track smarts", and only trackies seemed to have it.
>

Well said. I know that for me, track improved my bike handling skills and my
ability to place the bike where I want it. Also when you ride track and
there is an incident if front of you or around you, your first instinct is
to use those skills to avoid the crash rather than trying to brake to avoid
it, which almost never works. one track event that I believe sharpens bike
handling and confidence for pack riding on the road is the Madison. I know
that once I did a Madison with 11-12 teams on a 250 meter track, riding a
crit was a picnic. It doesn't matter if you are riding in a pack of 100 or a
pack of 20, your concern is still the same, the bikes immediately around
you.

Dave

Don't write off the track due to one bad experience. It sounds like
you need to improve your track riding skills. Do they have some
clinics at your local track? Even experienced riders can learn a thing
or two, and the primary thing at most tracks is rider safety - one
should always be concerned first with how what one does affects the
safety of others on the track. It's just proper etiquette and is a
little different from road riding - there could be someone on hand to
observe riders and make recommendations and corrections. This means
giving up a little of the independence and freedom of riding on the
road in the interest of the other riders on the velodrome. If one
doesn't wish to do this, I can see getting kicked off the track.

Don't write off the track due to one bad experience. It sounds like
you need to improve your track riding skills. Do they have some
clinics at your local track? Even experienced riders can learn a thing
or two, and the primary thing at most tracks is rider safety - one
should always be concerned first with how what one does affects the
safety of others on the track. It's just proper etiquette and is a
little different from road riding - there could be someone on hand to
observe riders and make recommendations and corrections. This means
giving up a little of the independence and freedom of riding on the
road in the interest of the other riders on the velodrome. If one
doesn't wish to do this, I can see getting kicked off the track.

On 8 Feb 2005 17:52:51 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>Don't write off the track due to one bad experience. It sounds like
>you need to improve your track riding skills. Do they have some
>clinics at your local track? Even experienced riders can learn a thing
>or two, and the primary thing at most tracks is rider safety - one
>should always be concerned first with how what one does affects the
>safety of others on the track.

I've spent some time on three different tracks, two of them when I was
much younger. Back then the club team manager required it if at all
possible. While it wasn't quite as bad as I made it sound, it was
enough to let me know I enjoy the road more. At 55, I'm more likely to
be an official that a racer at the track - and that isn't all that
likely.


Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On 8 Feb 2005 17:52:51 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>Don't write off the track due to one bad experience. It sounds like
>>you need to improve your track riding skills. Do they have some
>>clinics at your local track? Even experienced riders can learn a thing
>>or two, and the primary thing at most tracks is rider safety - one
>>should always be concerned first with how what one does affects the
>>safety of others on the track.
>
> I've spent some time on three different tracks, two of them when I was
> much younger. Back then the club team manager required it if at all
> possible. While it wasn't quite as bad as I made it sound, it was
> enough to let me know I enjoy the road more. At 55, I'm more likely to
> be an official that a racer at the track - and that isn't all that
> likely.
>
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...


Then you have no confidence in your own skills as a bike handler, riding the
track is by far safer than riding a crit
Dave

Dave H wrote:
> Then you have no confidence in your own skills as a bike handler,
riding the
> track is by far safer than riding a crit

I don't think that's true at all. I have no experience at all on the
track but lots of guys in my club do both and several have pins in
their hips and shoulders from crashes on the track. I always assumed
track racing was safer too but the severity of the injuries I've seen
really surprised me once I knew a few people doing it.

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:54:15 GMT, "Dave H" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Then you have no confidence in your own skills as a bike handler, riding the
>track is by far safer than riding a crit
>Dave

Dumbass, what does not enjoying track equate to not having cionfidence
in my bike handling skills? I've ridden group sprints without taking
down the field and I don't worry much about holding my line. Not that
I do mass start races anymore, but I enjoy riding and racing on the
road and I don't enjoy riding on the track. The only track bike I ever
owned was to ride on the road...

This conversation is about pro sprinters and finishers and, if you've
watched the P&P shows much, should know it is usually brought up when
a large group sprint finish comes about 2-300 yards after a dogleg or
tight curve. Then (usually) Paul says something along the line that
"Robbie should have an advantage in this finish because of his success
on the track. He's the best bike handler out there." Phil agrees and
then, usually, it has little to do with what finally happens (which is
to be expected, since they're effectively covering one out of eight or
nine sprinters that are close enough to take a shot).

And these guys are not even remotely holding a line - they're taking
anything that is an open space that approximates the width of their
handlebars. And of course, it is more than just bike handling. The
real 'best bike handler' may be someone forty back and a fraction of a
horsepower too low to be in the front.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Try modifying Dave's comments to: If (not 'Then') you have no
confidence in your own skills as a bike handler, riding the track is by
far safer than riding a crit.

Not so inflammatory, and perhaps more applicable.

I've always found it more comforting to ride the track than in a crit,
especially a crit with 'less than skilled' racers. The lines and the
rules governing when you can/cannot cross them lends a bit of
predictability to what others around you will likely do.

In a crit, you more likely to find some numb-nuts who wants to go from
3 places back and four places to the outside, straight to the front,
inside spot in a corner. Who cares if there's 6 other people between
himself and where he wants to go???

Curtis L. Russell wrote:

> This conversation is about pro sprinters and finishers and, if you've
> watched the P&P shows much, should know it is usually brought up when
> a large group sprint finish comes about 2-300 yards after a dogleg or
> tight curve. Then (usually) Paul says something along the line that
> "Robbie should have an advantage in this finish because of his success
> on the track. He's the best bike handler out there." Phil agrees and
> then, usually, it has little to do with what finally happens (which is
> to be expected, since they're effectively covering one out of eight or
> nine sprinters that are close enough to take a shot).

Or then, often, Robbie makes a violent shift left or right and the
inferior bike handlers generally stay up, despite advice from gravity to
the contrary...

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave H wrote:
>> Then you have no confidence in your own skills as a bike handler,
> riding the
>> track is by far safer than riding a crit
>
> I don't think that's true at all. I have no experience at all on the
> track

Then how would you know?

but lots of guys in my club do both and several have pins in
> their hips and shoulders from crashes on the track. I always assumed
> track racing was safer too but the severity of the injuries I've seen
> really surprised me once I knew a few people doing it.

How does the severity of a crash translate into track cycling being more
dangerous?
Example. I am racing the track take a spill and get some road rash. Couple
days later I am on a step stool changing a lightbulb and miss the step
getting down, fall and break my hip, does that mean changing a lightbulb is
more dangerous than riding the track?
The severity of a crash be it in a crit or on the track has nothing to do
with which one is safer.
Dave

"Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:54:15 GMT, "Dave H" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Then you have no confidence in your own skills as a bike handler, riding
>>the
>>track is by far safer than riding a crit
>>Dave
>
> Dumbass, what does not enjoying track equate to not having cionfidence
> in my bike handling skills?

Because they are directly related. Why don't you enjoy riding the track? No
brakes? Steep banking? Too much going on?

I've ridden group sprints without taking
> down the field and I don't worry much about holding my line.

Means nothing. I know plenty of road riders that will tell you, they can
sprint in a bunch on the road, but freak out on the track in the same
situation. Ask them why. They say they don't have the confidence to push it
on the track like they do on the road.
>
> This conversation is about pro sprinters and finishers and, if you've
> watched the P&P shows much, should know it is usually brought up when
> a large group sprint finish comes about 2-300 yards after a dogleg or
> tight curve. Then (usually) Paul says something along the line that
> "Robbie should have an advantage in this finish because of his success
> on the track. He's the best bike handler out there." Phil agrees and
> then, usually, it has little to do with what finally happens (which is
> to be expected, since they're effectively covering one out of eight or
> nine sprinters that are close enough to take a shot).
>
> And these guys are not even remotely holding a line - they're taking
> anything that is an open space that approximates the width of their
> handlebars. And of course, it is more than just bike handling. The
> real 'best bike handler'

So what?
First off I never said track racers were the best bike handlers. Track
riders may have more confidence in there own skills and ability to to put
their bike where they want it. Track racing is tighter, everything happens
quicker, even the bikes steer quicker (if that is how you want to move your
bike around). Track riders are used to contact at speed and when there is
contact they don't freak out and put there bike into your spokes. They learn
to use their bodies to avoid mishaps. I can't tell you how many times in a
crit that I have had contact with another rider and they immediately freak
out or stop pedaling , or hit the brakes, or (my favorite) instead of
putting their body on you, they lean the other way and put their bike on
you. So many crit accidents happen because of the riders instinct to grab
the brakes instead of RIDING their bike thru the mishap.
Dave

With regards to the safety of track racing vs. road racing; I have been
managing a velodrome for over 20 years as well as organizing first aid
coverage for bike races all over Oregon for a similar period of time. It is
pretty clear that the risk of injury, particularly more serious injury, is
greater at road event. The rate of falls/rider in higher at road events and
these falls are more likely to result in injuries, although most are still
minor. This is counter to the general perception which I think is due to
the fact that at the velodrome whenever someone falls the fall is seen by
everyone at the event. At road events the falls that occur are only seen by
a portion of the people at the event.

--
Mike Murray

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:59:43 GMT, "Dave H" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>
>> Dumbass, what does not enjoying track equate to not having cionfidence
>> in my bike handling skills?
>
>Because they are directly related. Why don't you enjoy riding the track? No
>brakes? Steep banking? Too much going on?

Dumbass, I don't enjoy track and was not willing to put in the time to
get a comfort level. I already absolutely enjoy riding and, back then,
racing on the road. It isn't related to confidence, but I'll concede
it is to a degree related to comfort level. I also don't like riding
mountain bikes off road. Have no absent of confidence that I can ride
off road at some level because I have. But I don't enjoy it as much so
I ride on the road.

Your argument boils down to saying that anyone that doesn't ride track
that has tried it lacks confidence in their ability. So we're assuming
that the main reason that Lance isn't on the winter track circuit is
his lack of confidence? Maybe the Lion King only rode the track
sporadically because he has some unknown gap in his confidence levels?
Now Sean King rode track often enough, but others rode even more
often, so we have to conclude that Sean lacked quite their level of
confidence...

Dumbass it is.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:59:43 GMT, "Dave H" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Dumbass, what does not enjoying track equate to not having cionfidence
>>> in my bike handling skills?
>>
>>Because they are directly related. Why don't you enjoy riding the track?
>>No
>>brakes? Steep banking? Too much going on?
>
> Dumbass, I don't enjoy track and was not willing to put in the time to
> get a comfort level.

One and the same

> Your argument boils down to saying that anyone that doesn't ride track
> that has tried it lacks confidence in their ability. So we're assuming
> that the main reason that Lance isn't on the winter track circuit is
> his lack of confidence?

No ******** Lance doesn't do it cuz he makes more more by NOT doing it


Maybe the Lion King only rode the track
> sporadically because he has some unknown gap in his confidence levels?

How you little you know ********, Cipo was quite an accomplished junior
pursuit rider on the track

Dumbass it is.
couldn't have said it better myself

Dave
P.S. get you own lead in...Henry already has Dumbass

Dave H wrote:
>
> Maybe the Lion King only rode the track
> > sporadically because he has some unknown gap in his confidence
levels?
>
> How you little you know ********, Cipo was quite an accomplished
junior
> pursuit rider on the track



Dumbass -

Cipo was good with his train. He wasn't good without it. He had the
best top end power for many years, but he's not the best example of the
sprinter with the most badass handling skills - for that I'd point to
Moncassin or Abdujaporov - guys who everyone was scared to mess with.


K. Gringioni.

Dave H wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >I don't think there are seperate sets of skills. Experienced track
> > riders have a leg-up because they have less fear, more trust in
their
> > own bike handling, and are far more confident when aiming the
> > handlebars. They also seem better able to navigate their way
through
> > gaps that road riders would normally avoid.
> >
> > We used to call it "Track smarts", and only trackies seemed to have
it.
> >
>
> Well said. I know that for me, track improved my bike handling skills
and my
> ability to place the bike where I want it.


<snip>


Dumbass -

Ha. Don't forget to mention that you sucked on the road.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Cipo was good with his train. He wasn't good without it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Cipo win a couple of Classics that didn't
end in a bunch sprint? Someone like you telling us what sort of power Mario
Cipolini has is really your style.

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:56:29 GMT, "Dave H" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>No ******** Lance doesn't do it cuz he makes more more by NOT doing it

You have simply an unsupportable thesis - that everyone that chooses
to ride the road and enjoys road riding more than track does so
because they have no confidence in their bike handling skills. That is
utter nonsense from the get-go, I'll let this silly argument rest.

Essentially your argument devolves to all people that have reasonable
bike handling skills and are near enough to a track to ride would ride
track - given sufficient season, they would ride track predominantly.
Your thesis says that any decent bike handler anywhere in NE
Pennsylvania is on the track - all other bike riders lack confidence
enough in their skills to ride on the track. Any bike rider on this
list within two hours of a track that isn't riding track on a regular
basis does so because they lack confidence in their bike handling
skills. And there is no reason to not extend that to the mountain bike
riders and downhill riders as well.

Complete and utter nonsense. And arguing it further is also nonsense.
I can accept that a good track rider may develope skills that he or
she would not have if they rode only on the road. The rest is pissing
in the wind. I suggest you learn to do that downwind.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...