Clipped again

tony R wrote:
> Alas, after a week of going clipless I'm refitting the toeclips. As predicted I love the new
> pedals but unfortunately they're causing my left knee to ache a bit. I've had knee injuries before
> and as I'm off on tour next week I don't want to risk it. I've fiddled with the cleat position and
> kept ride distance down to 10-20 miles but the ache persists - I'd hate to discover after 50 miles
> that the ache had turned into an injury. Anyway, after the tour I intend to experiment for longer
> - one thought I had was that it might be caused by the disengaging process (my right knee is fine)
> - is this likely? Anyone with similar experiences out there? Thanks, tony R.
>
>

Have you checked that the cleats you are using have the widest range of float and also that the
tension on the pedals is set fairly loose to give a bit more float. it sounds as if you knee pain is
due to insufficient float at the pedal/shoe interface. This used to be very common in Look
pedal/black cleat users until the red cleats with float came out. The same principle applies to some
of the SPD pedals as well, just got to get the correct cleat.

--
Pete

interchange 12 for 21 to reply

On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:07:42 +0100, "tony R" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Alas, after a week of going clipless I'm refitting the toeclips. As predicted I love the new pedals
>but unfortunately they're causing my left knee to ache a bit. I've had knee injuries before and as
>I'm off on tour next week I don't want to risk it. I've fiddled with the cleat position and kept
>ride distance down to 10-20 miles but the ache persists - I'd hate to discover after 50 miles that
>the ache had turned into an injury. Anyway, after the tour I intend to experiment for longer - one
>thought I had was that it might be caused by the disengaging process (my right knee is fine) - is
>this likely? Anyone with similar experiences out there? Thanks, tony R.
>

Have you tried TIME ATACs - loads of float. Alot of people who have had knee problems say that ATACs
are the answer.

John T.

Remove the singers of Spam before replying

"tony R" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:%[email protected]...

> on occasion I felt that my foot was too "pigeon toed" but there was no resistance to my
> straightening it so I guess if it was a problem my foot would have straightened naturally.

I don't know so much. In my experience it's best to get the cleats at the right angle on the shoes
or your foot tends to drift to the cleat's centre point.

> I'm confused as to why the ache is only in one knee if there is a problem with float or cleat
> position.

Are the cleats at precisely the same fore-and-aft position on the shoe? And do you have both feet
pushed up against the clips normally? Sometimes one cleat needs to be slightly further back on the
shoe than the other.

--
Guy
===

WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.com

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "tony R" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:%[email protected]...
>
> > on occasion I felt that my foot was too "pigeon toed" but there was no resistance to my
> > straightening it so I guess if it was a problem
my
> > foot would have straightened naturally.
>
> I don't know so much. In my experience it's best to get the cleats at the right angle on the shoes
> or your foot tends to drift to the cleat's centre point.

I'll try to change the angle a bit , see if that helps. Trouble is now I have a dull background ache
even after a day's rest so it's pointless experimenting at the minute ( I feel no pain at all when
riding, only when I stop).

> > I'm confused as to why the ache is only in one knee if there is a
problem
> > with float or cleat position.
>
> Are the cleats at precisely the same fore-and-aft >position on the shoe?

Yes.

>And do you have both feet pushed up against the clips >normally?

Normally both a few mms. back from the clips.

>Sometimes one cleat needs to be slightly further back on the shoe than >the other.

If anything my left foot (the problem foot) might be slightly further back in the toeclip than the
right. This would require it's cleat to be further forward. My first attempt which resulted in the
pain was with the cleat at it's forward position. Where I'm at now is with both cleats in the centre
of their adjustment range, which places my feet about 10mm. further back in relation to the pedal
axle than with toeclips. I've altered the angle of the left cleat as advised above. Now I'm going to
refit the old pedals for a couple of weeks and do some cycling. Shame really, when I'm on the bike
the new pedals are a joy to turn and for my first tour in about 4 years I'd like my best kit. Never
mind. Thanks, tony R.

"tony R" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "tony R" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:%[email protected]...
> >
> > > on occasion I felt that my foot was too "pigeon toed" but there was no resistance to my
> > > straightening it so I guess if it was a
problem
> my
> > > foot would have straightened naturally.
> >
> > I don't know so much. In my experience it's best to get the cleats at
the
> > right angle on the shoes or your foot tends to drift to the cleat's
centre
> > point.
>
> I'll try to change the angle a bit , see if that helps. Trouble is now I have a dull background
> ache even after a day's rest so it's pointless experimenting at the minute ( I feel no pain at all
> when riding, only when
I
> stop).
>
> > > I'm confused as to why the ache is only in one knee if there is a
> problem
> > > with float or cleat position.
> >
> > Are the cleats at precisely the same fore-and-aft >position on the shoe?
>
> Yes.
>
> >And do you have both feet pushed up against the clips >normally?
>
> Normally both a few mms. back from the clips.
>
> >Sometimes one
> > cleat needs to be slightly further back on the shoe than >the other.
>
> If anything my left foot (the problem foot) might be slightly further back in the toeclip than the
> right. This would require it's cleat to be further forward. My first attempt which resulted in the
> pain was with the cleat at it's forward position. Where I'm at now is with both cleats in the
> centre of their adjustment range, which places my feet about 10mm. further back in relation to the
> pedal axle than with toeclips. I've altered the angle of the left cleat as advised above. Now I'm
> going to refit the old pedals for a couple of
weeks
> and do some cycling. Shame really, when I'm on the bike the new pedals are
a
> joy to turn and for my first tour in about 4 years I'd like my best kit. Never mind.
> Thanks, tony R.
>
>
>
>

Would it be worth checking the depth of tread if you're using different shoes to the ones with
toestraps? That would alter the relationship between pedal and saddle - you might find if the shoes
have thicker soles the saddle might need inching up a few mm to compensate and keep the distance
between things the same (or lowering it, if the new pedals combined with shoes have increased the
distance between saddle and pedal)?

Velvet

On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:18:56 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I don't know so much. In my experience it's best to get the cleats at the right angle on the shoes
>or your foot tends to drift to the cleat's centre point.
>

Guy

Everyone always mentions float but this, of course, only refers to the heel out or heel in angle of
the foot. The pedals and shoes I use (cheapo-Shimano) cope with this quite well as far as I'm
concerned. However, no one ever seems to mention pronation or suprination - I think I have the
correct terms - or the way in which the inside or outside or the foot foot hits the ground or rests
on the pedal. I tend to walk on the outside of my feet and so my shoes are forced inwards when
clipped in. I've learnt to live with this now but, I admit, it was a problem when I converted from
straps to clips a few years ago.

Anyway, suprination was the bane of my existence when I used to ski. Put ze boot shims in, ze boot
shims out Shims in, shims out, bend zoze knees about Skiing 'round in agony you quick release Mogul,
skid, fall, bash, bam, clout.

James

--
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.butty/Dscf0632.jpg

James Hodson wrote:
> Everyone always mentions float but this, of course, only refers to the heel out or heel in angle
> of the foot. The pedals and shoes I use (cheapo-Shimano) cope with this quite well as far as I'm
> concerned. However, no one ever seems to mention pronation or suprination - I think I have the
> correct terms

Just a typo in supination.

> - or the way in which the inside or outside or the foot foot hits the ground or rests on the
> pedal. I tend to walk on the outside of my feet and so my shoes are forced inwards when clipped
> in. I've learnt to live with this now but, I admit, it was a problem when I converted from
> straps to clips a few years ago.

If you're feeling fairly well off, the Look CX-7 pedals have +/- 3 degrees of supination adjustment.
They are the only ones I know which do this.

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

Aye!.

"Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "tony R" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > "tony R" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:%[email protected]...
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Would it be worth checking the depth of tread if you're using different shoes to the ones with
> toestraps? That would alter the relationship
between
> pedal and saddle - you might find if the shoes have thicker soles the
saddle
> might need inching up a few mm to compensate and keep the distance between things the same (or
> lowering it, if the new pedals combined with shoes
have
> increased the distance between saddle and pedal)?
>
> Velvet
>
I did do this before I even fitted the cleats but to be honest it was a bit of a guesstimate as
far as the old shoes' sole depth was concerned. I'll check it again though just to be sure,
Thanks, tony R.

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 19:04:48 +0100, Jim Price <[email protected]> wrote:

>Just a typo in supination.

Clearly my bike has far more supination than most, though

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com Advance
notice: ADSL service in process of transfer to a new ISP. Obviously there will be a week of downtime
between the engineer removing the BT service and the same engineer connecting the same equipment on
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Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 19:04:48 +0100, Jim Price <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Just a typo in supination.
>
>
> Clearly my bike has far more supination than most, though

Careful Guy, we seem prone to puns in situations like this

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

Aye!.

James Hodson wrote:

> However, no one ever seems to mention pronation or suprination - I think I have the correct
> terms - or the way in which the inside or outside or the foot foot hits the ground or rests on
> the pedal.

I have a dim recollection of some 'melican product called, improbably, Big Meat, which was designed
to do just this for cycling shoes, but do not recal the details. Search the HPV mailing list
archives at www.ihpva.org should come up with the details.

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================

"tony R" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Alas, after a week of going clipless I'm refitting the toeclips. As predicted I love the new
> pedals but unfortunately they're causing my left knee to ache a bit. I've had knee injuries before
> and as I'm off on tour next week I don't want to risk it. I've fiddled with the cleat position and
> kept ride distance down to 10-20 miles but the ache persists - I'd hate to discover after 50 miles
> that the ache had turned into an injury. Anyway, after the tour I intend to experiment for longer
> - one thought I had was that it might be caused by the disengaging process (my right knee is fine)
> - is this likely? Anyone with similar experiences out there? Thanks, tony R.

Tony, I had exactly the same problem, using spd's. It took me a long time to find the best
cleat positions, and even now I get that dull ache after a 50+ mile ride, and it's the day
after, like yourself.

I had to put the cleat on at what seems like a ridiculous angle, with my heel a gnat's whisker away
from the crank, to get this present, half decent set-up. I'm desperately keen to change pedals, but
can't face the thought of going through the whole cleat set-up thing again while there is riding to
be done. I'm going to sell all my possetions and get some speedplays when I can. In the meantime I'm
going to try moving the LH cleat a bit further backwards, towards the heel, to reduce leverage on
the knee, but only after I've ridden my club's 10 on Sun.

FWIW I over-pronate (turn feet outward), and have a dodgy left knee anyway, but I can never tell how
much of the ache is due to the cleat/pedal, and how much is due to having a ****/weak knee.

No help I know, but do keep us informed on how you get on.

SteveP

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 23:54:20 +0100, Jim Price <[email protected]> wrote:

>Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 19:04:48 +0100, Jim Price <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Just a typo in supination.
>>
Not a typo at all. I just can't (or couldn't) spell the worm.

>> Clearly my bike has far more supination than most, though
>
>Careful Guy, we seem prone to puns in situations like this

Hi Jim

I came across <http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/> today and an anagram of "supine Guy" is "Yup.
Genius." Now we'll never shut him up.

James

--
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.butty/Dscf0632.jpg

James Hodson wrote:
> I came across <http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/> today and an anagram of "supine Guy" is "Yup.
> Genius." Now we'll never shut him up.

James, you've really done it now. There goes the afternoon!

P.S. A CREPE WIDENS JIM is an anagram of my full name.

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

Aye!.

tony R <[email protected]> wrote:
: Alas, after a week of going clipless I'm refitting the toeclips. As predicted I love the new
: pedals but unfortunately they're causing my left knee to ache a bit. I've had knee injuries before
: and as I'm off on tour

I don't think anyone else has mentioned this, but have you looked at your saddle height? The new
pedals + shoes will probably need the saddle to be at a different height than your old shoes +
pedals and a wrong saddle height can cause knee pain.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org Power is delightful. Absolute power is absolutely delightful -
Lord Lester

"stephen pridgeon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "tony R" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Alas, after a week of going clipless I'm refitting the toeclips. As predicted I love the new
> > pedals but unfortunately they're causing my
left
> > knee to ache a bit.......... ..........Anyone with similar experiences out there? Thanks,
> > tony R.
>
> Tony, I had exactly the same problem, using spd's. It took me a long time to find the best cleat
> positions, and even now I get that dull ache after a 50+ mile ride, and it's the day after, like
> yourself.
>
> I had to put the cleat on at what seems like a ridiculous angle, with my heel a gnat's whisker
> away from the crank, to get this present, half decent set-up. I'm desperately keen to change
> pedals, but can't face the thought of going through the whole cleat set-up thing again while there
> is riding to be done. I'm going to sell all my possetions and get some speedplays when I can. In
> the meantime I'm going to try moving the LH cleat a bit further backwards, towards the heel, to
> reduce leverage on the knee, but only after I've ridden my club's 10 on Sun.
>
> FWIW I over-pronate (turn feet outward), and have a dodgy left knee anyway, but I can never tell
> how much of the ache is due to the cleat/pedal, and how much is due to having a ****/weak knee.
>
> No help I know, but do keep us informed on how you get on.
>
> SteveP

Steve, This is actually a great help as, following Guy's advice, I've adjusted the cleat angle and
was looking at it thinking "that can't be right". The angle means that a part of the shoe's sole
that is not cut away rubs on the pedal and makes a horrible squeaky noise - but I can live with
that if it helps the ache. It still leaves more than a gnat's whisker between heel and crank so
I'm a little more confident about it now. I'll try and get out tonight on them and test them one
last time. I have had problems around that knee once before, last summer, when I injured the
iliotibial band. However I'm pretty sure this ache is down to the pedals as I managed back-to-back
centuries a few weeks ago in toeclips with no problems at all. thanks for the reply and good luck
Sunday, tony R.

"Dave Larrington" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> James Hodson wrote:
>
> > However, no one ever seems to mention pronation or suprination - I think I have the correct
> > terms - or the way in which the inside or outside or the foot foot hits the ground or rests on
> > the pedal.
>
> I have a dim recollection of some 'melican product called, improbably, Big Meat, which was
> designed to do just this for cycling shoes, but do not
recal
> the details. Search the HPV mailing list archives at www.ihpva.org should come up with the
> details.
>
> Dave Larrington -

There is no way, no matter how tempting the prospect, that I'm going to search anywhere on-line for
"Big Meat"!! tony R.

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 16:33:46 +0100, Jim Price <[email protected]> wrote:

>James Hodson wrote:
>> I came across <http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/> today and an anagram of "supine Guy" is "Yup.
>> Genius." Now we'll never shut him up.
>
>James, you've really done it now. There goes the afternoon!
>

I cannot recall whether or not I've already said this in here but: My local pub is called The Henty
Arms. (By local I mean the one I frequent most, which is not a great deal these days. It's about
five miles away and their red wine is far too expensive.)

One excellent anagram of "The Henty Arms" is "The rat's hymen".

James

--
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.butty/Dscf0632.jpg

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 16:33:46 +0100, Jim Price <[email protected]> wrote:

>James Hodson wrote:
>> I came across <http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/> today and an anagram of "supine Guy" is "Yup.
>> Genius." Now we'll never shut him up.
>
>James, you've really done it now. There goes the afternoon!
>
>P.S. A CREPE WIDENS JIM is an anagram of my full name.

The Paving Slab Fairy = Beat via flying sharp. Disgruntled Goat = Genital dog turds. Hmmph. Not sure
I like that one. :-(

Oh well. Back on topic. Had a nice ride this evening. 15 miles out round Beaulieu way, half
off-road, half on. Nice. Bit of a breeze, not too hot. Definitely getting the hang of this 'bent.

Happy, happy, joy, joy.

--
DG

Bah!