3 tubes blown in 2 days-- wahh??

Rory Calhoun wrote:
> Just started taking out my city bike after having left it outside all
> winter.
> Rode it for a bit, the tube deflated. Got a new tube, rode that for
> about an
> hour, same thing happened. Bought yet another tube, rode that for
> about 45
> minutes (as always, on a city street), it also deflated. I realized I
> didn't do my tires any favors by leaving the bike out in the winter,
> but I checked the tires with my eye to see if I could find any gouges,
> slashes, serious cracks and the like, couldn't find anything. Felt
> around the inside sidewalls to see if I could feel any gash, it
> appeared smooth.
>
> I'm not even sure yet if there are holes in the tubes themselves. A
> cursory check
> from pumping one of them up just a bit, did not show me that any air
> was leaking
> out. What I did notice when I was pumping up one of the tubes at a
> filling station was there was no metal ring that fixes the valve to
> the wheel rim (inserting the air hose caused the valve to push itself
> into the tire, making it extra difficult to fill the tube). I seem to
> recall having some sort of ring to fix the valve on to the rim, but
> don't remember if it is supposed to come with the inner tube (neither
> of the tubes I bought had one).
>
> I will check the tubes more closely to see if they have leaks in the
> rubber, but I need to get this bike working pronto, so I'm hoping to
> save some time by perhaps having some o' y'all bike experts give me
> some indication of which direction to go into, to locate the source of
> the deflating tube problems. For example, I'm not sure how to go about
> identifying if your tire has a problem that is causing debris to reach
> the inner tube.
>
>
> Thanks for any advice!

Double-check the tire. I know you said you checked the sidewalls, but
what's more likely is that there's something in the tread itself. There is
likely some piercing agent embedded in it. The new tubes are getting
punctures, and although it's possible you may have flatted each time, it's
much more likely you have something still in the tire. Run your fingers
along the inside of the tread and sidewall from bead to bead as many times
as needed to confirm there is nothing still in the tire. Examine the tire
visually from its left and right sides, too. Examine the exterior of the
tire.

As long as you can get the tube inflated, the ring (comes with the
tube)serves little purpose. Putting the valve at 12-o-clock and pushing
down on the tire to extend the valve out of the hole is a good technique to
use to ease inflation without the ring (also known, to me, as a valve nut).
The valve nut also tends to rattle loose unless tightened down *after*
inflation.

The next time you remount a tube in the tire, align the tube valve with the
label on the tire, or if your tire has no label, align it with something
embossed on the tire sidewall, such as the "26" in "26x1.95." Then when you
take the punctured tube out, you can inflate it, listen/feel for the
puncture location on the tube, and then correlate it with a position on the
tire. You can then look for the puncturing agent at that location on the
tire.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

In article <[email protected]>,
Rory Calhoun <[email protected]> wrote:
>Just started taking out my city bike after having left it outside all
>winter.
>Rode it for a bit, the tube deflated. Got a new tube, rode that for
>about an
>hour, same thing happened.

1. Find the hole in the tube. You can usually do this by pumping the
tube up a little and feeling for air leaks. If necessary, put the tube
in a sink full of water and look for bubbles.

2. Once you find the hole in the tube, match tube up with your tire
(starting at the valve stem) and look for debris in your tire (or
a portruding spoke). Usually there is a piece of glass in the tire
that you can easily pull out.

3. Fix the problem in your tire or wheel before fixing the old tube.
Do this every time you get a flat.

The label aligned with the valve is a great idea! Never thought of
doing that. I did check the threads, but I'll go over it again with a
fine tooth comb. What concerns me is, if a piece of glass got embedded
in the tire, but then released itself, how can I know if there is a
small hole in the tire that might be letting other debris in to meet
the fragile tube, if the glass is no longer there for me to easily
locate the spot? After all, it won't do me any good tot dunk the tire
in a bathtub....

[email protected] wrote:

> The label aligned with the valve is a great idea! Never thought of
> doing that.

In addition to doing that, I mark both the tube and tire
with an arrow to indicate direction of travel -- once
both are off the bike, you don't have to be careful to
make sure you remember which way the tube was oriented
with respect to the tire, so you can check the tire in
one spot rather than two.

> I did check the threads, but I'll go over it again with a
> fine tooth comb. What concerns me is, if a piece of glass got embedded
> in the tire, but then released itself, how can I know if there is a
> small hole in the tire that might be letting other debris in to meet
> the fragile tube, if the glass is no longer there for me to easily
> locate the spot?

Another concern is something that's still embedded in
the tire, but not far enough to protrue all the way
through when you have it off -- however, when riding,
your weight is enough to push it through all the way
each time the wheel revolves. Moral: sometimes feeling
along the inside isn't enough -- you really have to
check carefully.


Larry Coon
University of California

On 7 Apr 2005 08:35:14 -0700, [email protected] (Rory
Calhoun) wrote:

>I'm not even sure yet if there are holes in the tubes themselves. A
>cursory check
>from pumping one of them up just a bit, did not show me that any air
>was leaking
>out. What I did notice when I was pumping up one of the tubes at a
>filling station was there was no metal ring that fixes the valve to
>the wheel rim (inserting the air hose caused the valve to push itself
>into the tire, making it extra difficult to fill the tube). I seem to
>recall having some sort of ring to fix the valve on to the rim, but
>don't remember if it is supposed to come with the inner tube (neither
>of the tubes I bought had one).

Aha. I conclude that you have Presta valves. Is it safe to assume
that you snugged down the little locknut on the tip of the valve after
filling it with air?

>I will check the tubes more closely to see if they have leaks in the
>rubber, but I need to get this bike working pronto, so I'm hoping to
>save some time by perhaps having some o' y'all bike experts give me
>some indication of which direction to go into, to locate the source of
>the deflating tube problems. For example, I'm not sure how to go about
>identifying if your tire has a problem that is causing debris to reach
>the inner tube.

If the tube shows no punctures when inflated outside of the tire
(submerge it in a bucket of water and look for a stream of bubbles or
spray it down with liquid soap solution if you don't find the hole
with visual inspection) then the air has to be going out through the
valve. Chances are, however, that the leak is due to a puncture, and
that the puncture is due to something that's still stuck in the tire.
If you don't want to risk having your finger nicked by the sharp
object, take a rag, paper towel, or other sacrificial snaggable object
and wipe around the entire interior of the tire; it if snags, you have
found the culprit. If there are no snags, and assuming there's also
nothing like loose debris in the tire, then take the tire off and
closely inspect the rim. Look for places where the rim band or tape
may have shifted or failed, leaving a spoke hole partially uncovered.
Also look for bubbly corrosion; this can somtimes poke holes in a tube
as well. Last but hardly least, is there a chance that you just
didn't have the tire pumped up enough to prevent snakebit punctures on
a nasty bump in the road surface? And did you partially inflate the
replacement tubes to keep them from getting pinched by the tire levers
when you were slipping the tire back into place?
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:07:33 GMT, Werehatrack
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 7 Apr 2005 08:35:14 -0700, [email protected] (Rory
>Calhoun) wrote:
>
>>I'm not even sure yet if there are holes in the tubes themselves. A
>>cursory check
>>from pumping one of them up just a bit, did not show me that any air
>>was leaking
>>out. What I did notice when I was pumping up one of the tubes at a
>>filling station was there was no metal ring that fixes the valve to
>>the wheel rim (inserting the air hose caused the valve to push itself
>>into the tire, making it extra difficult to fill the tube). I seem to
>>recall having some sort of ring to fix the valve on to the rim, but
>>don't remember if it is supposed to come with the inner tube (neither
>>of the tubes I bought had one).
>
>Aha. I conclude that you have Presta valves. Is it safe to assume
>that you snugged down the little locknut on the tip of the valve after
>filling it with air?

[snip]

Dear Werehatrack,

Both Presta and Schrader inner tubes can include a round
threaded ring, so the confusion here doesn't tell us much.

The original poster was "pumping up one of the tubes at a
filling station"--most filling stations cater to the common
Schrader car-style valves, not the far less common Presta
bicycle valves.

Carl Fogel

In article <[email protected]>,
Rory Calhoun <[email protected]> wrote:
>I'm not even sure yet if there are holes in the tubes themselves. A
>cursory check
>from pumping one of them up just a bit, did not show me that any air
>was leaking
>out.

The tube has to have some pressure in it to drive air out, so
if you're only inflating it "just a bit", the puncture won't pass enough
air to be apparant.

Pump the tube up more so that the it puffs up a bit (but don't
go overboard!) - you want the rubber to stretch a little: this will
stretch open any puncture. This lets it pass air, and also makes it a
little more visible. If you're in a reasonably quiet environment, you
can hear the air hissing out: use your ears rather than your eyes to
home in on the puncture. You may have to continue pumping the tube
intermittently while you home in on the puncture.

With brand new tubes, you can puff them up quite a bit to give
you more time to search before having to pump again. Tubes with patches
on them shouldn't be stretched as much, as this can compromise patches
that are marginally attached, as the tube wants to stretch while the
patches don't. Small patches are preferable to large ones as they're
less subject to this.

If you're close to the puncture but can't see it, a wet tongue
makes a good probe for finding the jet of air that should be coming
out. Don't lick it, but scan across the surface of the tube with your
tongue close but not touching. When you pass the puncture, you can
feel it as the jet of air cools your tongue, and you can also hear a
change in the sound of the hiss. You can home in with the tip of your
tongue, and if you're so inclined, lightly dab the puncture with it.
If you hear the hissing stop when you make contact, and start again
when you let go, you know you've found the puncture, and the spot of
saliva you leave behind lets you see where you were.

Where the puncture is on the tube will tell you where to look
for what caused it, assuming you have a point of reference to go by. For
this reason, as others have suggested, you should install the tire with
the tire label at the valve stem, so you know where on the casing to
look for the cause of puncture. Also note that leaks can also happen on
the rim side of the tube rather than the tire, though such leaks
typically are from chafing and develop over longer times than what
you're experience.

The other thing to look out for is that a tube can sometimes get
two closely spaced punctures, commonly called a 'snake bite'. These
are pinch flats that occur when the tire bottoms out on a bump. This is
generally a sign of the tire being underinflated, otherwise, the
bottoming out would only happen on bumps hard enough to leave you no
doubt when the puncture happened.

Once you've found the puncture, patch it rather than running out
to buy yet another tube. 13 cents for a patch vs $4 for a tube adds up
over time, not to mention avoiding needlessly adding to landfill.

-Luns

In article <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]> wrote:
>What concerns me is, if a piece of glass got embedded
>in the tire, but then released itself, how can I know if there is a
>small hole in the tire that might be letting other debris in to meet
>the fragile tube, if the glass is no longer there for me to easily
>locate the spot?

If it's no longer in the tire, as long as the casing isn't
damaged (no cords cut), then it's no longer an issue. The hole in the
tire casing is irrelevant - any road debris that could find its way into
the hole is just as capable of making a new hole for itself. What holds
air in is the inner tube, not the tire.

-Luns

Luns Tee wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >What concerns me is, if a piece of glass got embedded
> >in the tire, but then released itself, how can I know if there is a
> >small hole in the tire that might be letting other debris in to meet
> >the fragile tube, if the glass is no longer there for me to easily
> >locate the spot?
>
> If it's no longer in the tire, as long as the casing isn't
> damaged (no cords cut), then it's no longer an issue. The hole in the
> tire casing is irrelevant - any road debris that could find its way
into
> the hole is just as capable of making a new hole for itself. What
holds
> air in is the inner tube, not the tire.
>
> -Luns

My concern is that if the glass (or whatever it is that presumably was
embedded in the tire causing new tubes to get punctured) is no longer
there but the hole is, then perhaps debris is or can go through the
hole and puncture the inner tube.

By the way, I guess one of my posts didn't make it up here, but for the
record, I did write that I was using a schraeder tube, and that I did
succeed in finding single puncture 'wounds' in all of my inner tubes
(about 4 of them, from 2 different bikes). I repaired the best of these
tubes (it was a leak so slow, you couldn't hear it or really feel it,
but you could see the bubbles under water). Put the newly patched tube
on my bike with a different tire that I knew was ok (a skinnier
Panaracer from the my other city bike), and I rode for about 2 hours on
a patched tube and made it home without having to walk! That was a
thrill...
Noted that the slightly narrower Panaracers were hard as a brick at
about 65-70psi (I'm used to being able to 'squish' my slightly wider
Continentals at that same pressure level). I'm guessing its because the
tires are skinnier but at any rate, it gave me a little more confidence
that it wouldn't bottom out on me en route...

I haven't had the time yet to carefully scrutinize my original
Continental tire, but I'm sure I will find its probably a piece of
debris (although the possibility that I keep buying the same cheap $5
inner tube was another of my theories - that's $5 CDN or about $4us). I
appreciate the mountainous amount of help I received on this issue, and
very timely advice it all was. I learned a lot here recently that I
didn't know about, like the significance of rim tapes against
punctures, and that it can be 'acceptable' to ride on a patched tube (I
always thought it was only for emergency rides...), and other neat
stuff. Thanks!

In article <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Luns Tee wrote:
>> If it's no longer in the tire, as long as the casing isn't
>> damaged (no cords cut), then it's no longer an issue. The hole in the
>> tire casing is irrelevant - any road debris that could find its way into
>> the hole is just as capable of making a new hole for itself. What holds
>> air in is the inner tube, not the tire.
>
>My concern is that if the glass (or whatever it is that presumably was
>embedded in the tire causing new tubes to get punctured) is no longer
>there but the hole is, then perhaps debris is or can go through the
>hole and puncture the inner tube.

As I said, the hole is not an issue. It's not as though
was material removed and there's a void left behind that debris can
just walk into; this is (I presume) literally a pinhole. Material is
pushed aside by the foreign object, but rubber springs back where it
should be after the object is removed.
If the damage to the tire is more than just a pinhole, with
cords being cut, then the tire may need to be booted or replaced. But
if this is the case, you wouldn't have as hard time finding the fault
as you've had.

>By the way, I guess one of my posts didn't make it up here, but for the
>record, I did write that I was using a schraeder tube, and that I did
>succeed in finding single puncture 'wounds' in all of my inner tubes
>(about 4 of them, from 2 different bikes). I repaired the best of these
>tubes (it was a leak so slow, you couldn't hear it or really feel it,
>but you could see the bubbles under water).

A puncture is a puncture: as long as it's not a tear, there's no
better or worse as far as patching goes. The location of the puncture
relative to any ribbing or molding flash on the tire may affect how
easily you can apply a patch, but the magnitude of the leak itself
doesn't matter - the tube either holds air or it doesn't.

> Put the newly patched tube
>on my bike with a different tire that I knew was ok (a skinnier
>Panaracer from the my other city bike), and I rode for about 2 hours on
>a patched tube and made it home without having to walk! That was a
>thrill...

Patch cement needs time to cure, otherwise exactly what you've
experienced can happen. 24 hours should be plenty. There's also the
matter of whether the tube surface was adequately prepared. See:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

>Noted that the slightly narrower Panaracers were hard as a brick at
>about 65-70psi (I'm used to being able to 'squish' my slightly wider
>Continentals at that same pressure level). I'm guessing its because the
>tires are skinnier but at any rate, it gave me a little more confidence
>that it wouldn't bottom out on me en route...

That may be the perception of your thumb and the very limited
force it can apply, but for the same pressure, wider tires can support
more load.

>I haven't had the time yet to carefully scrutinize my original
>Continental tire, but I'm sure I will find its probably a piece of
>debris (although the possibility that I keep buying the same cheap $5
>inner tube was another of my theories - that's $5 CDN or about $4us).

I pretty sure you'll find something embedded in the tire. When
looking at the tread, suspect every little thing. A piece of glass
embedded in can look very much like a small rock that's just stuck to
the surface, the glass looking black when embedded in black rubber.

-Luns

Comments at bottom...
C wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Rory Calhoun <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Just started taking out my city bike after having left it outside
all
> >winter.
> >Rode it for a bit, the tube deflated. Got a new tube, rode that for
> >about an
> >hour, same thing happened.
>
> 1. Find the hole in the tube. You can usually do this by pumping
the
> tube up a little and feeling for air leaks. If necessary, put the
tube
> in a sink full of water and look for bubbles.
>
> 2. Once you find the hole in the tube, match tube up with your tire
> (starting at the valve stem) and look for debris in your tire (or
> a portruding spoke). Usually there is a piece of glass in the tire
> that you can easily pull out.
>
> 3. Fix the problem in your tire or wheel before fixing the old tube.
> Do this every time you get a flat.

On several occasions (OK, more than one), I've had cuts in the tire
just big enough to allow the tube to push through and wear on the road
surface. Not enough to bulge through and pop, but just enough to
actually wear a hole in the tube. This takes a few miles, but is very
frustrating because it'll occur shortly after fixing the flat tire the
first time. It can be tough to locate the hole in the tire, also, since
it will close once the tube deflates. The telltale sign is a small
discolored area on the inside of the tire- presuming that the tire is
light-colored on the inside to begin with. With a dark-colored
interior, this is almost impossible to detect.

Jeff

> debris (although the possibility that I keep buying the same cheap $5
> inner tube was another of my theories - that's $5 CDN or about $4us).

That would never be an issue unless the tube was defective. There really
are no "high quality" tubes, unless you want superlight, slimed tubes.
Cheap tubes are actually the best ones you can buy.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

3 blown tubes in 2 days... I'd just throw away the tire. It's not
worth my effort to deal with it anymore, for $15 to $30 depending on
the tire.

[email protected] wrote:
>
> The label aligned with the valve is a great idea! Never thought of
> doing that. I did check the threads, but I'll go over it again with a
> fine tooth comb. What concerns me is, if a piece of glass got embedded
> in the tire, but then released itself, how can I know if there is a
> small hole in the tire that might be letting other debris in to meet
> the fragile tube, if the glass is no longer there for me to easily
> locate the spot? After all, it won't do me any good tot dunk the tire
> in a bathtub....


I always align label with valve stem. Additionally I always put the label side
on the right side of the bike. Just my preference, that last thingie; always on
the left side is just as good. Just be consistant.

On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:28:03 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:07:33 GMT, Werehatrack
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 7 Apr 2005 08:35:14 -0700, [email protected] (Rory
>>Calhoun) wrote:
>>
>>>I'm not even sure yet if there are holes in the tubes themselves. A
>>>cursory check
>>>from pumping one of them up just a bit, did not show me that any air
>>>was leaking
>>>out. What I did notice when I was pumping up one of the tubes at a
>>>filling station was there was no metal ring that fixes the valve to
>>>the wheel rim (inserting the air hose caused the valve to push itself
>>>into the tire, making it extra difficult to fill the tube). I seem to
>>>recall having some sort of ring to fix the valve on to the rim, but
>>>don't remember if it is supposed to come with the inner tube (neither
>>>of the tubes I bought had one).
>>
>>Aha. I conclude that you have Presta valves. Is it safe to assume
>>that you snugged down the little locknut on the tip of the valve after
>>filling it with air?
>
>[snip]
>
>Dear Werehatrack,
>
>Both Presta and Schrader inner tubes can include a round
>threaded ring, so the confusion here doesn't tell us much.
>
>The original poster was "pumping up one of the tubes at a
>filling station"--most filling stations cater to the common
>Schrader car-style valves, not the far less common Presta
>bicycle valves.

Full-threqaded Schrader stems used to be relatively common, but I have
to admit that I have not seen one in at least 20 years now; they may
still exist, but I just have not run across any. Full-threaded
Prestas, on the other hand, are quite common, and so are
quasi-permanently-installed Schrader adapters, which must be unscrewed
to undo the nut before filling the tube with a Schrader chuck.. The
fiddly detail of *retightening* that nut can fall victim to an attack
of brainfade, however, so I thought it prudent to mention the issue.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 02:30:54 GMT, Werehatrack
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:28:03 -0600, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:07:33 GMT, Werehatrack
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On 7 Apr 2005 08:35:14 -0700, [email protected] (Rory
>>>Calhoun) wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'm not even sure yet if there are holes in the tubes themselves. A
>>>>cursory check
>>>>from pumping one of them up just a bit, did not show me that any air
>>>>was leaking
>>>>out. What I did notice when I was pumping up one of the tubes at a
>>>>filling station was there was no metal ring that fixes the valve to
>>>>the wheel rim (inserting the air hose caused the valve to push itself
>>>>into the tire, making it extra difficult to fill the tube). I seem to
>>>>recall having some sort of ring to fix the valve on to the rim, but
>>>>don't remember if it is supposed to come with the inner tube (neither
>>>>of the tubes I bought had one).
>>>
>>>Aha. I conclude that you have Presta valves. Is it safe to assume
>>>that you snugged down the little locknut on the tip of the valve after
>>>filling it with air?
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>Dear Werehatrack,
>>
>>Both Presta and Schrader inner tubes can include a round
>>threaded ring, so the confusion here doesn't tell us much.
>>
>>The original poster was "pumping up one of the tubes at a
>>filling station"--most filling stations cater to the common
>>Schrader car-style valves, not the far less common Presta
>>bicycle valves.
>
>Full-threqaded Schrader stems used to be relatively common, but I have
>to admit that I have not seen one in at least 20 years now; they may
>still exist, but I just have not run across any. Full-threaded
>Prestas, on the other hand, are quite common, and so are
>quasi-permanently-installed Schrader adapters, which must be unscrewed
>to undo the nut before filling the tube with a Schrader chuck.. The
>fiddly detail of *retightening* that nut can fall victim to an attack
>of brainfade, however, so I thought it prudent to mention the issue.

Dear Werehatrack,

Fully threaded bicycle Schrader valve tubes (SV) still
exist:

http://www.bikeparts.com/ProductInfo/Superlight-tube510.html

http://www.bikeparts.com/ProductInfo/Superlight-tube477.html

Carl Fogel

[email protected] wrote:

> Dear Werehatrack,
>
> Fully threaded bicycle Schrader valve tubes (SV) still
> exist:
>
> http://www.bikeparts.com/ProductInfo/Superlight-tube510.html
>
> http://www.bikeparts.com/ProductInfo/Superlight-tube477.html

Thanks, Carl! I can finally get proper replacement tubes for my
fathers' old Hercules 3-speed.

On 9 Apr 2005 19:58:20 -0700, "Brian Huntley"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> Dear Werehatrack,
>>
>> Fully threaded bicycle Schrader valve tubes (SV) still
>> exist:
>>
>> http://www.bikeparts.com/ProductInfo/Superlight-tube510.html
>>
>> http://www.bikeparts.com/ProductInfo/Superlight-tube477.html
>
>Thanks, Carl! I can finally get proper replacement tubes for my
>fathers' old Hercules 3-speed.

Dear Brian,

Your father's Hercules will not only attract envious stares
from those whose Schrader valves are merely half-threaded,
but will surge forward faster because these tubes are
superlight!

Singularly,

Carl Fogel