Re: Carbon Fiber Seat Stays = Better Ride?

  • Thread starter Qui si parla Campagnolo
  • Start date



Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
Steve Sr. wrote:
> I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving the
> "comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike. Serotta even goes so far
> as putting a bearing at the dropout end on their high end bikes to
> allow the seat stays to flex and act as springs to soften the ride. Or
> at least this is what is claimed. Other manufacturers make similar
> claims.
>
> So given a regular full titanium frame like a Litespeed Tuscany how
> much if any difference would be made by having the seat stays made of
> carbon fiber? Would the difference be noticeable or not? Has anybody
> done any _quantatative_ measurements or studies on this or is it all
> subjective?
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Steve


It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in. Stays don't
flex up and down an amount that would make any difference. On an
aluminum frame, the chainstays don't flex at all, and a non compressable
stay is the stuff of marketing.

It is an unneceassary addition that makes things more expensive, less
reliable.
 
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Steve Sr. wrote:
>
>> I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving the
>> "comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike. Serotta even goes so far
>> as putting a bearing at the dropout end on their high end bikes to
>> allow the seat stays to flex and act as springs to soften the ride. Or
>> at least this is what is claimed. Other manufacturers make similar
>> claims.
>>
>> So given a regular full titanium frame like a Litespeed Tuscany how
>> much if any difference would be made by having the seat stays made of
>> carbon fiber? Would the difference be noticeable or not? Has anybody
>> done any _quantatative_ measurements or studies on this or is it all
>> subjective?
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughts.
>>
>> Steve

>
>
> It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
> lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
> plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in. Stays don't
> flex up and down an amount that would make any difference. On an
> aluminum frame, the chainstays don't flex at all, and a non compressable
> stay is the stuff of marketing.
>
> It is an unneceassary addition that makes things more expensive, less
> reliable.


Not surprised at what Serotta says tho. Ben seems to climb on every
gadget bandwagon that comes along...
 
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1113396856.a7e9df991cd0dd1101ec6ac0d853c57b@teranews...
> Steve Sr. wrote:
> > I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving the
> > "comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike. Serotta even goes so far
> > as putting a bearing at the dropout end on their high end bikes to
> > allow the seat stays to flex and act as springs to soften the ride. Or
> > at least this is what is claimed. Other manufacturers make similar
> > claims.
> >
> > So given a regular full titanium frame like a Litespeed Tuscany how
> > much if any difference would be made by having the seat stays made of
> > carbon fiber? Would the difference be noticeable or not? Has anybody
> > done any _quantatative_ measurements or studies on this or is it all
> > subjective?
> >
> > Thanks for your thoughts.
> >
> > Steve

>
> It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
> lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
> plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in. Stays don't
> flex up and down an amount that would make any difference. On an
> aluminum frame, the chainstays don't flex at all, and a non compressable
> stay is the stuff of marketing.
>
> It is an unneceassary addition that makes things more expensive, less
> reliable.


Peter, do you say/think that there is a noticeable difference in vertical
flex between a aluminium and titanium rear triangle?

Lou
 
Lou Holtman wrote:
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1113396856.a7e9df991cd0dd1101ec6ac0d853c57b@teranews...
>
>>Steve Sr. wrote:
>>
>>>I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving the
>>>"comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike. Serotta even goes so far
>>>as putting a bearing at the dropout end on their high end bikes to
>>>allow the seat stays to flex and act as springs to soften the ride. Or
>>>at least this is what is claimed. Other manufacturers make similar
>>>claims.
>>>
>>>So given a regular full titanium frame like a Litespeed Tuscany how
>>>much if any difference would be made by having the seat stays made of
>>>carbon fiber? Would the difference be noticeable or not? Has anybody
>>>done any _quantatative_ measurements or studies on this or is it all
>>>subjective?
>>>
>>>Thanks for your thoughts.
>>>
>>>Steve

>>
>>It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
>>lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
>>plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in. Stays don't
>>flex up and down an amount that would make any difference. On an
>>aluminum frame, the chainstays don't flex at all, and a non compressable
>>stay is the stuff of marketing.
>>
>>It is an unneceassary addition that makes things more expensive, less
>>reliable.

>
>
> Peter, do you say/think that there is a noticeable difference in vertical
> flex between a aluminium and titanium rear triangle?
>
> Lou
>
>

Can't say because I am riding the bicycle and not really testing the
small part of frameset. I can say that after riding lots of carbon butt
ended frames and non-I can't tell any difference.
 

> >>Steve Sr. wrote:
> >>
> >>>I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving

the
> >>>"comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike.


Serrota is behind the times, they're building the bike backwards....
check this out quote..

"Isaac Force
Perhaps the only significant frame innovation of the Twenty-First
Century, the Isaac Force heralds a unique and truly revolutionary
feature: Force Transfer Aluminium seat stays. The aluminium stays give
improved lateral and torsional stiffness, and improved robustness -
all whilst maintaining a very low weight. The Isaac Force combines all
the advantages of a highly advanced carbon-composite monocoque frame
with the outstanding mechanical properties of 7000 series alloy tube
- only where it is needed"

end quote
<http://www.isaac-carbon.com/index3.htm>, scroll around a bit.
Pinarello SuperEgo, carbon lugs, magnesium main tubes, AL stays,
Reynolds 531 fork, a bike to make everyone happy.
Scott G.
 
Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]> writes:

>It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
>lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
>plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in. Stays don't
>flex up and down an amount that would make any difference. On an
>aluminum frame, the chainstays don't flex at all, and a non compressable
>stay is the stuff of marketing.


Not a mystery to me! The pure titanium frame, which lasts forever,
results in zero resales to the same customer. The frameset with
carbon plugs and rear end glued in will fail, resulting in future
sales from said deadbeat customer.

darned if those carbon stays don't feel better than that pure
unrustable titanium which feels horrible !!!

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
 
[email protected] wrote:
> > >>Steve Sr. wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as

improving
> the
> > >>>"comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike.

>
> Serrota is behind the times, they're building the bike backwards....
> check this out quote..
>
> "Isaac Force
> Perhaps the only significant frame innovation of the Twenty-First
> Century, the Isaac Force heralds a unique and truly revolutionary
> feature: Force Transfer Aluminium seat stays. The aluminium stays

give
> improved lateral and torsional stiffness, and improved robustness -
> all whilst maintaining a very low weight. The Isaac Force combines

all
> the advantages of a highly advanced carbon-composite monocoque frame
> with the outstanding mechanical properties of 7000 series alloy tube
> - only where it is needed"
>
> end quote
> <http://www.isaac-carbon.com/index3.htm>, scroll around a bit.
> Pinarello SuperEgo, carbon lugs, magnesium main tubes, AL stays,
> Reynolds 531 fork, a bike to make everyone happy.
> Scott G.


But didn't the Isaac Force get its original idea from the Cannondale
613? Or whatever Cannondale calls its carbon main tube, aluminum lug,
all aluminum rear triangle. And didn't Cannondale get its idea from
the old Trek 2300 carbon main tube, aluminum rear triangle frame? And
I imagine the Trek 2300 was just a copy of 1980s Vitus or Alan carbon
main tube aluminum rear triangle frames. Gosh, it seems everything old
is new again. I wonder if they will come out with the double diamond
lugged steel frame as "the only significant frame innovation of the
Twenty-SECOND Century".
 
Announcing !!! The HybridTube bicycle !!!

Aluminum oversized downtube. Strong where you need it most. For
extra stiffness we use a 2" downtube. Strength is enhanced by our
special need-specific tube shaping (NSTS) which shapes the downtube in
the shape of a "$" (dollar bill.)

Titanium top tube. When you've got something to compress, nothing
compresses like titanium.

Carbon rear stay. We make the rear stays carbon because the front
fork is probably carbon and it just doesn't make sense to be coming
with carbon without going with carbon as well.

Bottom bracket. This is steel in order to inhibit flexion in this
critical area.

Seat Tube. The seat tube is probably the greatest afterthought in
bicycle design today. Therefore, we use one of the most unconsidered
materials of all time in the seat tube, pure, flame-enhancing
magnesium. Because of it's protected location in the middle of the
bike, we feel the risk of flash fires due to sparks during a crash has
been held to an absolute minimum.

Head tube. In order to bring this frame to you at an attractive
price, we use an investment-cast head tube with integral lugs. This
head tube is cast from space-age resin mixed with a proven material
straight from the "old school" of bicycle design : bamboo.

There you have it. The most significant bicycle frameset development
of 2005 (**).


- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA


(**) (April 13, 3:20-3:23 time period.)
 
[email protected] wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>>>>>Steve Sr. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as

>
> improving
>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>"comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike.

>>
>>Serrota is behind the times, they're building the bike backwards....
>>check this out quote..
>>
>>"Isaac Force
>>Perhaps the only significant frame innovation of the Twenty-First
>>Century, the Isaac Force heralds a unique and truly revolutionary
>>feature: Force Transfer Aluminium seat stays. The aluminium stays

>
> give
>
>>improved lateral and torsional stiffness, and improved robustness -
>>all whilst maintaining a very low weight. The Isaac Force combines

>
> all
>
>>the advantages of a highly advanced carbon-composite monocoque frame
>>with the outstanding mechanical properties of 7000 series alloy tube
>>- only where it is needed"
>>
>>end quote
>><http://www.isaac-carbon.com/index3.htm>, scroll around a bit.
>>Pinarello SuperEgo, carbon lugs, magnesium main tubes, AL stays,
>>Reynolds 531 fork, a bike to make everyone happy.
>>Scott G.

>
>
> But didn't the Isaac Force get its original idea from the Cannondale
> 613? Or whatever Cannondale calls its carbon main tube, aluminum lug,
> all aluminum rear triangle. And didn't Cannondale get its idea from
> the old Trek 2300 carbon main tube, aluminum rear triangle frame? And
> I imagine the Trek 2300 was just a copy of 1980s Vitus or Alan carbon
> main tube aluminum rear triangle frames. Gosh, it seems everything old
> is new again. I wonder if they will come out with the double diamond
> lugged steel frame as "the only significant frame innovation of the
> Twenty-SECOND Century".
>


Tee heee...bike design run amok...
 
Lou Holtman said:
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1113396856.a7e9df991cd0dd1101ec6ac0d853c57b@teranews...
> Steve Sr. wrote:
> > I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving the
> > "comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike. Serotta even goes so far
> > as putting a bearing at the dropout end on their high end bikes to
> > allow the seat stays to flex and act as springs to soften the ride. Or
> > at least this is what is claimed. Other manufacturers make similar
> > claims.
> >
> > So given a regular full titanium frame like a Litespeed Tuscany how
> > much if any difference would be made by having the seat stays made of
> > carbon fiber? Would the difference be noticeable or not? Has anybody
> > done any _quantatative_ measurements or studies on this or is it all
> > subjective?
> >
> > Thanks for your thoughts.
> >
> > Steve

>
> It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
> lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
> plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in. Stays don't
> flex up and down an amount that would make any difference. On an
> aluminum frame, the chainstays don't flex at all, and a non compressable
> stay is the stuff of marketing.
>
> It is an unneceassary addition that makes things more expensive, less
> reliable.


Peter, do you say/think that there is a noticeable difference in vertical
flex between a aluminium and titanium rear triangle?

Lou

Particularly the Moots.
 
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:


> It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
> lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
> plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in.

If I remember well, FIETS magazine did a test on bikes with carbon rearstays
by putting lots of measuring equipment on the bikes. If I remember well
they claimed that a carbon Giant was more comfortable than other bikes
without carbon stays a.o. a Colnago Mexico). A former tech editor wrote a
letter about it saying it was all nonsense. Maybe some other dutch FIETS
reader remembers the results of this test?

> It is an unneceassary addition that makes things more expensive, less
> reliable.

I ride a few different bikes and I mostly grab a 15 year old SLX bike that
according to all ads is worthless. When I compare it to my carbon LOOK I
can say I feel the LOOK is stiffer, but I doubt the LOOK is more
comfortable. I ride as fast on the heavy 8 speed SLX bike as on carbon
frames. Maybe it would be different in an area with lots of climbs, but not
here.

Greets, Derk
 
Derk wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>
>
>
>>It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
>>lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
>>plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in.

>
> If I remember well, FIETS magazine did a test on bikes with carbon rearstays
> by putting lots of measuring equipment on the bikes. If I remember well
> they claimed that a carbon Giant was more comfortable than other bikes
> without carbon stays a.o. a Colnago Mexico). A former tech editor wrote a
> letter about it saying it was all nonsense. Maybe some other dutch FIETS
> reader remembers the results of this test?


Yes I do. They tried to prove wether carbon had better damping
abilities. The results were very ambiguous (different results for
different frequencies) and they concluded that use of carbon for the
rear triangle was purely cosmetic. It was a worthless test IMO because
the tested just 3 or 4 different framesets with different materials,
geometries and tube diameters. But they came up with the right
conclusion though: if you want more comfort get fatter tires and/or run
them on a lower pressure.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu
 
Lou Holtman wrote:

>But they came up with the right conclusion though: if you want more comfort
>get fatter tires and/or run them on a lower pressure.

Thanks!

BTW: what weather did the Amstel Gold Tourversion riders get today? Rain, I
guess?

Greets, Derk
 
Derk wrote:
> Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>
>>But they came up with the right conclusion though: if you want more comfort
>>get fatter tires and/or run them on a lower pressure.

>
> Thanks!
>
> BTW: what weather did the Amstel Gold Tourversion riders get today? Rain, I
> guess?
>
> Greets, Derk


Yep. I pass. Next week Klimmen-Banneux-Klimmen. Less crowded, less traffic.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu
 

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