Tire pressure on hot days?



Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Sam Huffman

Guest
My sister was in a race in last month during which the temperature went from about 60 degrees in the
morning to 95 degrees in the mid-afternoon.

The bike techs were pumping tires up to full pressure, but a friend advised her to drop the pressure
to about 125 psi from her usual 175 psi due to the anticipated heat. (PV=nRT, I suppose).

I'll be doing some light touring later this summer in similar conditions, and am wondering if this
is something I should watch out for? I.e. let air out of my tires mid-day? I generally run close to
the maximum listed tire pressure. Or is this yet another tire pressure myth?

Thanks, Sam
 
If you're smart enough to write PV=nRT to the group then use it. Calculate the P-delta for
your T-delta.

"Sam Huffman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
>
> My sister was in a race in last month during which the temperature went
from
> about 60 degrees in the morning to 95 degrees in the mid-afternoon.
>
> The bike techs were pumping tires up to full pressure, but a friend
advised
> her to drop the pressure to about 125 psi from her usual 175 psi due to
the
> anticipated heat. (PV=nRT, I suppose).
>
> I'll be doing some light touring later this summer in similar conditions,
and
> am wondering if this is something I should watch out for? I.e. let air out
of
> my tires mid-day? I generally run close to the maximum listed tire pressure. Or is this yet
> another tire pressure myth?
>
> Thanks, Sam
 
Sam Huffman wrote:
> My sister was in a race in last month during which the temperature went from about 60 degrees in
> the morning to 95 degrees in the mid-afternoon.
>
> The bike techs were pumping tires up to full pressure, but a friend advised her to drop the
> pressure to about 125 psi from her usual 175 psi due to the anticipated heat. (PV=nRT, I suppose).
>

What tires is your sister that can be pumped up to 175 psi? My pro race tires are only rated
to 116 psi.

Kenny Lee
 
"Doug Huffman" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Sam Huffman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > The bike techs were pumping tires up to full pressure, but a friend
> advised
> > her to drop the pressure to about 125 psi from her usual 175 psi due to
> the
> > anticipated heat. (PV=nRT, I suppose).
> >
> > I'll be doing some light touring later this summer in similar conditions,
> and
> > am wondering if this is something I should watch out for? I.e. let air out
> of
> > my tires mid-day? I generally run close to the maximum listed tire pressure. Or is this yet
> > another tire pressure myth?

> If you're smart enough to write PV=nRT to the group then use it. Calculate the P-delta for your
> T-delta.

I can do the calculation; it looks like a roughly 10% pressure increase as a result of temperature
increasing from 60 - 95 degrees. However the question is whether other factors mitigate or
aggravate this.

I saw a reference to an experiment done on car tires in which an increase in ambient temperature
from 67 to 85 degrees (~ 5%) resulted in tire pressure increasing from 35 to 36.5 psi (~ 4%), which
is probably within experimental error.

However the same experiment found that the tire in direct sunlight increased from 35 to 40 psi (~
14%), which assuming the same result applies to bicycle tires, might become problematic if someone
rides near or at maximum pressure normally.

I was wondering if anyone had any experimental or anecdotal evidence that might apply to cycling.

Thanks, Sam
 
Conti. Grandprix can be pumped to 175 psi, but what about the rim, Mavic recomend up to
about 130 psi

Gustav
>
> What tires is your sister that can be pumped up to 175 psi? My pro race tires are only rated to
> 116 psi.
>
> Kenny Lee
 
Kenny Lee <[email protected]> writes:

> What tires is your sister that can be pumped up to 175 psi? My pro race tires are only rated to
> 116 psi.

Not sure; they're tubulars so I don't know if that makes a difference or not. My cheapo floor pump
goes to 160psi I think, so presumably some tires make use of it..

Sam
 
"Sam Huffman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
>
> My sister was in a race in last month during which the temperature went from about 60 degrees in
> the morning to 95 degrees in the mid-afternoon.
>
> The bike techs were pumping tires up to full pressure, but a friend advised her to drop the
> pressure to about 125 psi from her usual 175 psi due to the anticipated heat. (PV=nRT, I suppose).
>
> I'll be doing some light touring later this summer in similar conditions,
and
> am wondering if this is something I should watch out for? I.e. let air out
of
> my tires mid-day? I generally run close to the maximum listed tire pressure. Or is this yet
> another tire pressure myth?

The real danger is tube heating from the rims during prolonged braking. This is usually only a
concern in winding, mountainous, descents where excess speed has to constantly be shed. In these
circumstances, rims can sizzle water and it's a good idea to lower the pressure well below blowoff
maximums before descending. Where the actual blowoff is relative to the sidewall/rim specs is hard
to know, but some circumstances deserve a conservative approach.
 
Sam Huffman: wrote:

> My sister was in a race in last month during which the temperature went from about 60 degrees in
> the morning to 95 degrees in the mid-afternoon.
>
> The bike techs were pumping tires up to full pressure, but a friend advised her to drop the
> pressure to about 125 psi from her usual 175 psi due to the anticipated heat. (PV=nRT, I suppose).

She normally runs 175 psi?!!! Wow! That must make for a hard ride.

I normally wouldn't worry about a 30 degree change in air temperature, but at 175 psi I might. What
can really cause problems is rims heating up from prolonged braking on long mountain descents.

Art Harris
 
Sam Huffman <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> a friend advised her to drop the pressure to about 125 psi from her usual 175 psi

What sort of race was this that riders would use 175psi in normal weather? That's remarkably high
for road racing. Was it a track race? What kind of tires does she use?

JT
 
[email protected] (John Forrest Tomlinson) writes:

> Sam Huffman <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > a friend advised her to drop the pressure to about 125 psi from her usual 175 psi
>
> What sort of race was this that riders would use 175psi in normal weather? That's remarkably high
> for road racing. Was it a track race? What kind of tires does she use?

It was a triathlon; she uses tubulars, not sure of the brand. I doubt she would notice if the tire
pressure were 175 psi or 125 psi, but that is the pressure the LBS told her to use.

She's been told by other shops to keep them pumped high because she's heavy compared to other racers
(150 pounds) and lower pressure will cause rubber deformation which, in conjunction with other
factors, can cause the glue to fail.

She'd be the first to admit that her sport is caught up in over-hyped equipment.. At all of her
races I've been to there's always some old guy on a Schwinn who finishes relatively high in the
standings, and well before a lot of 20-somethings with fancy equipment.

Sam
 
On 14 Jul 2003 07:15:47 -0700, Sam Huffman <[email protected]> wrote:

>I'll be doing some light touring later this summer in similar conditions, and am wondering if this
>is something I should watch out for? I.e. let air out of my tires mid-day? I generally run close to
>the maximum listed tire pressure. Or is this yet another tire pressure myth?
>
>Thanks, Sam

How accurate is your gauge? Most people have no idea.

Barry
 
When I do a packed tour, I normally increase my tire pressure by 10%
(100 > 110 psi) dou to the simple fact that I'm carying (over)ten percent more weight.

Even the heat of the California (or Carolina!) summer sun, I have never had a tire blow out.

I weigh 175, usually carry about 27-30 lbs in the summer, I have Weinmann touring rims and
Hutchinson clincher tires rated at 100 psi. I normaly ride them at 100 in the rear, 90 front
(unladen bike).

May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
 
"Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<fFCQa.60384$Ph3.5911@sccrnsc04>...
> "Sam Huffman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]...
> >
> > My sister was in a race in last month during which the temperature went from about 60 degrees in
> > the morning to 95 degrees in the mid-afternoon.
> >
> > The bike techs were pumping tires up to full pressure, but a friend advised her to drop the
> > pressure to about 125 psi from her usual 175 psi due to the anticipated heat. (PV=nRT, I
> > suppose).
> >
> > I'll be doing some light touring later this summer in similar conditions,
> and
> > am wondering if this is something I should watch out for? I.e. let air out
> of
> > my tires mid-day? I generally run close to the maximum listed tire pressure. Or is this yet
> > another tire pressure myth?

Something else to consider is the possibility that the temperature of asphalt and air near the
ground is significantly hotter than the air where most people hold thermometers. I'm not sure how
much of this may transfer to the tire and rim.
 
On 14 Jul 2003 08:56:34 -0700, Sam Huffman <[email protected]> may have said:

>I saw a reference to an experiment done on car tires in which an increase in ambient temperature
>from 67 to 85 degrees (~ 5%)

Sorry, that's not a 5% change unless you're measuring the temp in Kelvin...and 85K is mighty cold.

>resulted in tire pressure increasing from 35 to 36.5 psi (~ 4%), which is probably within
>experimental error.

And, quite frankly, that's much less than the variation normally found from tire to tire on the
average real-world non-competition vehicle. In other words, a difference of no consequence whatever.

>However the same experiment found that the tire in direct sunlight increased from 35 to 40 psi (~
>14%), which assuming the same result applies to bicycle tires, might become problematic if someone
>rides near or at maximum pressure normally.

Those tires must have been getting awfully hot. or must have been in the freezer when they were
aired up. To produce a pressure change of 14%, for instance, the air temp inside would have had to
go up by 74 degrees Farenheit; not impossible, but in normal cycling, extremely unlikely. In road
racing, we expected a tire pressure change from cold to hot of no more than 3 psi; the tires, after
all, are subjected to exposure to a lot of cooling air flow, and while the road interface may get
locally hotter than the air, the core of the tread and the casing shouldn't, nor should the
inflation air inside.

>I was wondering if anyone had any experimental or anecdotal evidence that might apply to cycling.

The easy test you can do yourself is this; try changing the tire pressure on your bike by the 4%
amount you mentioned, and see if you can detect the difference in a ride. I think you'll discover
that you can't.

Beyond that, every automotive reference book in my possession which addresses the topic *except
one*[1] recommends strongly *against* reducing pressure in a hot tire that was at or near
recommended inflation *when cold*, and in point of fact, the vast majority of automotive tires are
explicitly marked with only the cold inflation pressure on the sidewalls. It is expected that the
pressure will rise at the tire's temp goes up. As you noted, 18 degrees (F) of temp change produces
only a 4% variation in inflation pressure; I doubt that this would be enough to cause any problems.
Bear in mind that the tires pretty much have to be designed to allow for that variation, as it is
impractical and unrealistic to expect that people will adjust their tire pressure from morning to
midday in normal riding, and it is fairly common to encounter temp swings of 25 to 30 degrees F in a
day. If you're in a competitive situation, then you will, of course, want to fine-tune the pressure.
Otherwise, my recommendation would be to make sure it's adequate in the morning before setting out,
and recheck it only if there are signs that the pressure is being lost.

[1] that one book I mentioned has a more extensive answer; it states that a passenger car tire which
is more than 15% over the max rated cold inflation pressure when checked hot should be allowed
to cool and then be rechecked, and if it returns to the rated pressure or below, the reason for
the internal overheating should be found and corrected before the vehicle is returned to
service. So, really, even that one doesn't recommend reducing the pressure unless it's
overinflated when cold.

---
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.

Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.
 
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:05:15 +0200, KGB wrote:

>
> Conti. Grandprix can be pumped to 175 psi, but what about the rim, Mavic recomend up to about
> 130 psi

With tubulars, the rims don't care what the pressure is. The bike would certainly ride like a
rock, though.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can _`\(,_ | only be cured by
something racy and Italian. Bianchis and (_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis
and Ferraris. -- Glenn Davies
 
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 03:56:22 +0000, Werehatrack wrote:

> On 14 Jul 2003 08:56:34 -0700, Sam Huffman <[email protected]> may have said:
>
>>I saw a reference to an experiment done on car tires in which an increase in ambient temperature
>>from 67 to 85 degrees (~ 5%)
>
> Sorry, that's not a 5% change unless you're measuring the temp in Kelvin...and 85K is mighty cold.

Um, if that were the Kelvin temperatures it would not be a 5% increase, but a 27% increase. I do
believe the guy was converting Fahrenheit to Kelvin, computing the percentage change there, and
noting that. 67F=292.6K, 85F=302.6K (302.6-292.6)/292.6 = 3.4%. Well, OK, he was a little off.

As far as the rest of the claims go, I have never experienced it, but there are those who claim
their tires have blown off the rims while the bike is locked up inside a car. Sun streaming in, no
air circulation.

Certainly, though, on a long descent the air inside the tube can be seriously heated by the hot
rims. Melting tubular glue was quite common.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | I don't believe you, you've got the whole damn thing all wrong. _`\(,_ | He's not the kind
you have to wind-up on Sundays. --Ian (_)/ (_) | Anderson
 
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:23:41 -0400, "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> may have said:

>As far as the rest of the claims go, I have never experienced it, but there are those who claim
>their tires have blown off the rims while the bike is locked up inside a car. Sun streaming in, no
>air circulation.

And temps as high as 180F, possibly higher in the desert Southwest. Given the rather flexy beads and
shallow rims of bike tires relative to the rim diameters, it would not be surprising to see a tire
lift out of the bead if it was a high-pressure unit to begin with and had a temp increase of that
severity. That's not really a *riding* hazard situation, though, it's a *storage and transport*
issue. Except for the type of event you describe involving a long descent, I can't think of a reason
to expect this sort of overheating problem *while riding*, since an environmental temp of that
magnitude would have a certain amount of effect on the rider. Now, if a decent disc brake could be
had for a non-ruinous price, even the braking heat problem could be ignored.

>Certainly, though, on a long descent the air inside the tube can be seriously heated by the hot
>rims. Melting tubular glue was quite common.

If it were not for the concerns about weight and aerodynamics, it would be relatively easy to reduce
this problem by making an aluminum rim with exposed short (on the order of 3 to 5 mm) heat
dissipation ridges on the inner flat surface flanking the spokes. Aluminum carries heat and sheds it
very well, so the effects of prolonged braking should not be hard to ameliorate in this way. (For
the competition rider, of course, the two conerns mentioned would override the safety gain...but for
the casual or commuter rider, I'd think there might be a market in areas where the terrain is more
vertical than I'd personally want to try to ride.)

---
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.

Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.
 
Werehatrack <[email protected]> writes:

> On 14 Jul 2003 08:56:34 -0700, Sam Huffman <[email protected]> may have said:
>
> >I saw a reference to an experiment done on car tires in which an increase in ambient temperature
> >from 67 to 85 degrees (~ 5%)
>
> Sorry, that's not a 5% change unless you're measuring the temp in Kelvin...and 85K is mighty cold.

David got it right; I had already converted to Kelvin, though apparently I should have used a
calculator instead of my noodle :) 3.4% it is.

> >resulted in tire pressure increasing from 35 to 36.5 psi (~ 4%), which is probably within
> >experimental error.
>
> And, quite frankly, that's much less than the variation normally found from tire to tire on the
> average real-world non-competition vehicle. In other words, a difference of no consequence
> whatever.
>
> >However the same experiment found that the tire in direct sunlight increased from 35 to 40 psi (~
> >14%), which assuming the same result applies to bicycle tires, might become problematic if
> >someone rides near or at maximum pressure normally.
>
> Those tires must have been getting awfully hot. or must have been in the freezer when they were
> aired up.

The tires in the experiment were 35 psi at 67 degrees (no direct sunlight),
36.5 psi at 85 degrees in the shade, and 40 psi at 85 degrees in the sunlight. So based on that, 4%
of the increase was from ambient temperature and 10% was from sunlight.

> >I was wondering if anyone had any experimental or anecdotal evidence that might apply to cycling.
>
> The easy test you can do yourself is this; try changing the tire pressure on your bike by the 4%
> amount you mentioned, and see if you can detect the difference in a ride. I think you'll discover
> that you can't.

My concern isn't the 4%, but rather the 14%. My guess would be the additional 10% from direct
sunlight is a constant adder on top of the pressure change, so on a 60F - 95F day, one might expect
a 17% increase in tire pressure. From that and the other input I've gotten it sounds reasonable to
adjust tire pressure mid-day, though probably not crucial, given that a tire rated at 110
psi is more likely to blow if it's at 130 psi than at 110 psi.

Thanks for the input, Sam
 
On 14 Jul 2003 08:56:34 -0700, Sam Huffman <[email protected]> wrote:
> I saw a reference to an experiment done on car tires in which an ambient temperature from 67 to 85
> degrees (~ 5%) resulted in tire increasing from 35 to 36.5 psi (~ 4%), which is probably within
> experimental error.

> However the same experiment found that the tire in direct sunlight from 35 to 40 psi (~ 14%),
> which assuming the same result applies to bicycle tires, might become problematic if someone rides
> near or at maximum pressure normally.

Additional factors to keep in mind:
1. Direct sunlight on a black tubless tire with a wide auto tread and high profile would definately
heat the tire significantly. The same light on a narrow bicycle tread, combined with the possible
lighter color of the sidewall (or even the tread) and the fact that the tire has layers of nylon
or kevlar between the tread and the tube (vs. just steel braid, covered in rubber, with no tube
in an automotive tire), would have a different result.

2. While riding, the tire is subject to wind, and maybe shade, which cools it down, but is also
subject to heating factors including normal (friction, rolling resistance) and climate-related
(pavement in hot sun on a hot day get HOT; try cooking a frozen pizza on it and see what I mean).

3. Uhh, I forgot. Stupid phone calls distract me. What do people think they're doing, calling me at
the office during standard business hours to discuss, of all things, business?

--
Rick Onanian
 
On 14 Jul 2003 09:07:55 -0700, Sam Huffman <[email protected]> wrote:
> not. My cheapo floor pump goes to 160psi I think, so presumably some

Ah, there's the other problem. If you come up with tires, tubes, and rims that do 175psi...How the
hell do you pump them up that high?

I'm in the roofing business, and although my compressors can provide 120psi, I can't get anywhere
near it by the time it gets through a presta valve...I had to buy a floor pump, and it's tough
pumping 125psi. How the hell do you get 175 in there???

--
Rick Onanian
 
Status
Not open for further replies.