Disc Brakes on Touring Bikes

Pheonix Ribbon wrote:
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the ages. I have found my frame
> (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for

That link is for Vanguard Mutual Funds. I already knew they have great index funds, but I didn't
know they also sell frames.

> both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to stick to simple brakes when out in the
> middle of nowhere, and I shall be using v-brakes when I'm touring down Europe. But would still
> like to knwo if it is possible to find/build-easily a drop handle lever that will be able to
> operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> Any ideas?

I only use cantilevers on my touring bike. I wouldn't trust v-brakes fully loaded for distances.
Maybe others would, but I wouldn't.

> As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of fully-loaded touring forks, then
> please divulge.

Contact a local frame-builder or wherever you got your frame. Make sure you get CrMo if you're going
fully-loaded.

"Pheonix Ribbon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the ages. I have found my frame
> (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to
> stick to simple brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using v-brakes when I'm
> touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if it is possible to find/build-easily a drop
> handle lever that will be able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> Any ideas?

Avid Mechanical ball bearing disc brakes are then next best thing to hydraulic discs and better than
V's. They make a version for road bikes. They are quite simple and probably easier to set up and
maintain than V's or Canti's. I have hydraulic disc brakes on all my mountain bikes and will never
go back to V's except for maybe a beach cruiser.

>
> As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of fully-loaded touring forks, then
> please divulge.
>
Sorry can't help there.

Mike

"Pheonix Ribbon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the ages. I have found my frame
> (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to
> stick to simple brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using v-brakes when I'm
> touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if it is possible to find/build-easily a drop
> handle lever that will be able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of fully-loaded touring forks, then
> please divulge.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Lief

Avid has cable actuated disc brakes that are designed for road bikes - which includes taking into
account normal roadie lever cable pull. Not hydraulic, but cables are easy to find, whereas Shimano
Mineral Oil or DOT 5.1 can be a bit difficult to find in, say, Cambodia. Just bring an extra set of
pads or two, just in case - but they last a pretty damn long time.

Jon Bond

> I only use cantilevers on my touring bike. I wouldn't trust v-brakes fully loaded for distances.
> Maybe others would, but I wouldn't.

I would. I've toured with Vs with no problem. Usually tour with cantilever. I've never had any
problem with V-brakes and have had plenty with cantilevers.

"Pheonix Ribbon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the ages. I have found my frame
> (www.vanguard.com).

Here's the corrected URL: http://www.vanguardtitanium.com/

> It has housings for both disc and v-brakes.

Most custom framebuilders can do this upon request.

> Now, I know that it is best to stick to simple brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and
> I shall be using v-brakes when I'm touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if it
> is possible to find/build-easily a drop handle lever that will be able to operate a set of
> disc brakes.

Give Avid mechanical disc brakes a try. They're super-reliable, light and cheap, with awesome
stopping power (especially after they bed-in for a few months).

Barry

Pheonix Ribbon wrote:

> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the ages. I have found my frame
> (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to
> stick to simple brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using v-brakes when I'm
> touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if it is possible to find/build-easily a drop
> handle lever that will be able to operate a set of disc brakes.

I was going to do this and bought the pieces. However I discovered disk stuff is rugged and
incredibly heavy. Just one caliper Hayes MX-1 is 250 grams. When touring I would rather this weight
on board be something more useful so will not be fitting them.

If your tires aren't too big, then use sidepulls. They are simple and work.

-Bruce

"Pheonix Ribbon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the ages. I have found my frame
> (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to
> stick to simple brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using v-brakes when I'm
> touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if it is possible to find/build-easily a drop
> handle lever that will be able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of fully-loaded touring forks, then
> please divulge.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Lief

gmaker wrote:
>
> Pheonix Ribbon wrote:
>
> > I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the ages. I have found my frame
> > (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to
> > stick to simple brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using v-brakes when I'm
> > touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if it is possible to find/build-easily a drop
> > handle lever that will be able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> I was going to do this and bought the pieces. However I discovered disk stuff is rugged and
> incredibly heavy. Just one caliper Hayes MX-1 is 250 grams. When touring I would rather this
> weight on board be something more useful so will not be fitting them.

diacompe 287V levers work with V-brakes, so probably with a V-brake lever compatible mechanical
diskbrake too.
--
Marten

[email protected] (Pheonix Ribbon) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the ages. I have found my frame
> (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to
> stick to simple brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using v-brakes when I'm
> touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if it is possible to find/build-easily a drop
> handle lever that will be able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of fully-loaded touring forks, then
> please divulge.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Lief

All but the very cheapest V-brakes are easy to set up and very reliable. I use the Avid Single Digit
7 model now (the 5 or 3 are just fine also). I've also used low cost Taiwanese V brakes that were
effective and easy to work with, but not so nicely finished. The key to an easy set-up is that the
brakes have an adjusting screw on each arm. Also, it is important to note that you will have to
match the levers to the calipers. Cantis use the same levers as side pulls. These levers have a
greater mechanical advantage and pull less cable per unit of lever motion then do V-brake levers.
So, if you are using brifters, then consider cantis or mini V-brakes. Also, there are levers for
drop bars that will work with standard V-brakes. Check with
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/hub.html for these. If you are using flat bars, then any modern
mountain bike lever will work with V-brakes.

Unless you are bound for mud or snow, using disk brakes seems to be of questionable advantage.
Mechanical and hydraulic versions are heavy, costly, and may cause the front wheel to loosen while
riding. Please read the threads concerning front wheel loosening issues vs. disk brakes in this
newsgroup before you decide. If you choose to use disk brakes, you would want to have a fork and
frame with the appropriate mounting features. Of course, you will also need wheels with disk hubs.
It does start to add up to real $$$ and you've got to ask yourself why?

Fork recommendations: I've been using an inexpensive Tange chrome molly fork. It cost me under
$50.00, has V-brake bosses and one eyelet located on each dropout. It has been trouble free for the
one season I've used it. I do not tour, but I do weigh 215 lbs., so the fork sees a total of 240
lbs. (me plus the bike) every day.

Steve Shapiro [email protected]

I swapped a Magura HS-66 rim hydraulic (drop levers) on my Touring bike for an Avid mechanical on
the front only (to get SDI rear changing).

Result: at 160mm disk the result was worse than the Magura hydraulic rim system. But having become
addicted to SDI, I persisted with a 185mm "extreme" disk. Now the thing stops on a dime. Compare
steep drop-offs where friends on road bikes (Dura-ace, etc) get cramps in both hands, I've two
finger braking (I don't use the rear except when stopping at road furniture).

If you're touring fully loaded, take a lot of spare pads (small but expensive). In Hong Kong I went
through a set every 4 to 6 weeks. Now I'm in the UK, brakes are rarely needed. But touring fully
loaded will eat pads for breakfast.

And BTW non-original pads won't fit. There is an auxiliary spacer spring that fits around the pad
material tightly. Avid shapes their material to allow it to fit. Non-originals were caught by 2001
model magnetic mounting example and have not "fitted" their material exactly, resulting in the
spacer spring not fitting, in my experience.

Phillip

"Jon Bond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Pheonix Ribbon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the ages. I have found my frame
> > (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to
> > stick to simple brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using v-brakes when I'm
> > touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if it is possible to find/build-easily a drop
> > handle lever that will be able to operate a set of disc brakes.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of fully-loaded touring forks, then
> > please divulge.
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Lief
>
> Avid has cable actuated disc brakes that are designed for road bikes -
which
> includes taking into account normal roadie lever cable pull. Not
hydraulic,
> but cables are easy to find, whereas Shimano Mineral Oil or DOT 5.1 can be
a
> bit difficult to find in, say, Cambodia. Just bring an extra set of pads
or
> two, just in case - but they last a pretty damn long time.
>
> Jon Bond

Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee wrote:
>> I only use cantilevers on my touring bike. I wouldn't trust v-brakes fully loaded for distances.
>> Maybe others would, but I wouldn't.
>
> I would. I've toured with Vs with no problem. Usually tour with cantilever. I've never had any
> problem with V-brakes and have had plenty with cantilevers.

I have Tektro cantilever (wide profile, by Sheldon's terminology
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html) brakes on my Dawes Horizon. Compared to the
Weinmann "U-style" brakes I had on my 15+ year old Eddy Merckx, which I gather are also a type of
cantilever, these are pretty poor. They feel spongy and unresponsive, even after fully adjusted.

Though the Weinmanns are poorer still in comparison to the "V-style" brakes on my friend's mountain
bike -- let's just say I now believe all his praise of V-Brakes and "I can pull an endo with one
finger" ranting. But perhaps that is a little extreme... I don't need something so responsive that
I'm going to wash out the front if a fly lands on my finger while I'm braking, but I did like the
brake response on the Eddy. (His girlfriend was riding with me the other day and she locked up the
rear pretty severely coming up to some traffic lights, but she is an inexperienced rider.)

Dani

[email protected] (Pheonix Ribbon) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the ages. I have found my frame
> (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to
> stick to simple brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using v-brakes when I'm
> touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if it is possible to find/build-easily a drop
> handle lever that will be able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of fully-loaded touring forks, then
> please divulge.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Lief

Everybody seems to be concentrating on the mechanics of the brakes, levers, etc., but no one
has mentioned one issue with discs and touring bikes: interference with racks! Not an
impossible combination, but the standard mount will interfere with racks. Things gotta be moved
to make it all work.

- rick

There are a few concerns with disk brakes on touring bikes.
First, to accomodate the rotor, the hub flange spacing
must be narrower. This will result in a wheel which is not
as strong. Additionally, the front wheel will have dish.

Second, the frame and fork need to be beefy to handle the torque from the brake. On the rear this
just means extra weight. However, on the front, it also means a very stiff fork which will adversely
affect ride quality.

Third, it is difficult, but not impossible, to fit racks around many disk calipers.

Fourth, there is evidence to suggest that a front disk brake can force a wheel from the dropouts
unless there is some sort of secondary retention device (like lawyer lips) or other provision to
prevent this.

Fifth, there has also been some evidence that rim brakes can generate more sustained braking power
and dissipate more heat prior to failure than most disk brakes. Rim brakes fail from excessive heat
by blowing a tire off of the rim. Disk brakes fail frome excessive heat in a variety of ways:
boiling fluid, warped rotors, melted plastic parts, glazed pads, etc. Generally speaking, rim brakes
will tolerate a higher level of heat than most disk brakes. The best disk brakes in this regard are
those with heavy, large diameter rotors. These can be superior to rim brakes in heat dissipation.

The main advantage of disks in mountain biking is performance in muddy conditions when rim brakes
would be packed with mud. This generally isn't an issue for touring bikes (unless off-road touring).
Both rim and disk brakes need to clear the braking surface of water before effective braking can
begin so there is no clear advantage for either in the rain.

Todd Kuzma Heron Bicycles Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com http://www.tullios.com

Todd Kuzma:

> Fifth, there has also been some evidence that rim brakes can generate more sustained braking power
> and dissipate more heat prior to failure than most disk brakes. Rim brakes fail from excessive
> heat by blowing a tire off of the rim. Disk brakes fail frome excessive heat in a variety of ways:
> boiling fluid, warped rotors, melted plastic parts, glazed pads, etc. Generally speaking, rim
> brakes will tolerate a higher level of heat than most disk brakes.

Blowing a tire off a rim is a catastrophic failure with rim brakes, not good when going down an
incline, whereas a warped disk rotor will not have as dramatic an effect. A disk brake system is
better in this respect.

RE/
>And BTW non-original pads won't fit. There is an auxiliary spacer spring that fits around the pad
>material tightly. Avid shapes their material to allow it to fit. Non-originals were caught by 2001
>model magnetic mounting example and have not "fitted" their material exactly, resulting in the
>spacer spring not fitting, in my experience.

Also, if you're using the Avids, take a couple of spare springs along with those spare sets of pads.

I had one set of pads just fall out of the calipers on me - leaving behind a mangled spring. To be
fair to Avid, I suspect I brought it on by incorrectly inserting the rear wheel once (the rotor
probably caught the little tab that protrudes from the spring clip)...but it *did* happen.....

Also, make sure you trim the cable ends close. One guy posted either here or in the MTB group that a
friend did an endo at speed as the tail of the brake wire somehow got caught in the caliper body.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell

"Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Avid Mechanical ball bearing disc brakes are then next best thing to hydraulic discs and better
> than V's.

Speaking as a 360 lb. rider who can use braking power and not just braking feel, and who's tried
most every kind of brake, the order of those three brakes is reversed from a max. power standpoint.
Cantilevers and Vs can stop harder, longer. And Avid mechanical brakes have the benefit of being
tunable (through choice and/or adjustment of the lever) with regard to mechanical advantage.

Hydraulic discs offer no leverage adjustment, and they become overheated just as easily as
mechanical discs in an equivalent rotor size. People who don't actually use all their
available braking power become impressed with the lever response of hydraulic discs and assume
that their greater sensitivity to lever pressure means that they are more powerful than other
brakes. They are not.

> They make a version for road bikes. They are quite simple and probably easier to set up and
> maintain than V's or Canti's.

Easier to set up well than cantis, maybe. Easier than V-brakes? No way. If you have to seal your own
hoses and bleed the system (such as when installing almost any unusual setup), any mechanical brake
has simpler setup.

One point the OP should note is that disc brakes make for a dished, weak front wheel. They reduce
the amount of dish in the rear wheel, though, which is good. If the rear rack mounting issues can be
worked out with a rear disc in place, then this might be an OK place to use a disc on a touring
bike. You're better off with a canti brake, and a dishless wheel, in the front.

Chalo Colina

"Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Avid Mechanical ball bearing disc brakes are then next best thing to hydraulic discs and better
> than V's.

Speaking as a 360 lb. rider who can use braking power and not just braking feel, and who's tried
most every kind of brake, the order of those three brakes is reversed from a max. power standpoint.
Cantilevers and Vs can stop harder, longer. And Avid mechanical brakes have the benefit of being
tunable (through choice and/or adjustment of the lever) with regard to mechanical advantage.

Hydraulic discs offer no leverage adjustment, and they become overheated just as easily as
mechanical discs in an equivalent rotor size. People who don't actually use all their
available braking power become impressed with the lever response of hydraulic discs and assume
that their greater sensitivity to lever pressure means that they are more powerful than other
brakes. They are not.

> They make a version for road bikes. They are quite simple and probably easier to set up and
> maintain than V's or Canti's.

Easier to set up well than cantis, maybe. Easier than V-brakes? No way. If you have to seal your own
hoses and bleed the system (such as when installing almost any unusual setup), any mechanical brake
has simpler setup.

One point the OP should note is that disc brakes make for a dished, weak front wheel. They reduce
the amount of dish in the rear wheel, though, which is good. If the rear rack mounting issues can be
worked out with a rear disc in place, then this might be an OK place to use a disc on a touring
bike. You're better off with a canti brake, and a dishless wheel, in the front.

Chalo Colina

In article <[email protected]>, Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote:

> Todd Kuzma:
>
> > Fifth, there has also been some evidence that rim brakes can generate more sustained braking
> > power and dissipate more heat prior to failure than most disk brakes. Rim brakes fail from
> > excessive heat by blowing a tire off of the rim. Disk brakes fail frome excessive heat in a
> > variety of ways: boiling fluid, warped rotors, melted plastic parts, glazed pads, etc. Generally
> > speaking, rim brakes will tolerate a higher level of heat than most disk brakes.
>
> Blowing a tire off a rim is a catastrophic failure with rim brakes, not good when going down an
> incline, whereas a warped disk rotor will not have as dramatic an effect. A disk brake system is
> better in this respect.

But as pointed out, is unsuitable for a touring bike for a number of other reasons. I think Todd's
and Rick's very good points are quite valid, and as Todd pointed out, a rim brake having a much
larger area for heat dissipation is less likely to have any heat related problems.

Tens of thousands of people have managed to go touring using rim brakes, without dying from
heat-related blowouts, traveling all around the world From Trondheim to the Cape and from Barrow to
the Straits of Magellan. It's an occasional problem (although as you point out, it's serious when it
happens) that can largely be prevented.

Don't carry too much stuff (IMHO the biggest mistake people make when touring is to haul too much
stuff or ill-suited stuff around with them). Ride a bike that can properly carry the load you have.
Learn to load the bike correctly. Learn how to descend safely with minimal braking.

Jose Rizal wrote:

> Blowing a tire off a rim is a catastrophic failure with rim brakes, not good when going down an
> incline, whereas a warped disk rotor will not have as dramatic an effect. A disk brake system is
> better in this respect.

That's true although losing your brakes ain't no picnic. This reminds me of another issue. If you
damage a rotor in an accident, you will have to remove it to continue. Not a big problem, but it has
happened to mountain bikers.

Todd Kuzma