Liggett questions Ullrich's sportsmanship

I see your point, but in the heat of the moment, I bet it was a tough decision. Could be that had
Jan known lance had the legs today, his decision might have been different. There is a fine line
between sportsmanship and foolishness. Just an observation.

"Tony Ortega" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should not have felt obliged to
> wait after Lance crashed on the climb up Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident
> two years ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent. Rather than take
> advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German to catch up.
>
> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it happened at a less crucial
> time: "Two years ago, it was a great gesture, but of little importance to the race - they were
> going downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never accelerate like Lance."
> (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>
> I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour should have outweighed his
> feelings of fair play. That's not very sporting, is it, Phil?
>
> Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the others to make sure everyone held
> up for Lance to get back.
>
> That was some race this morning.
>
> Tony Ortega Phoenix, Arizona

Seems to me there is special treatment for the leader of the race. Would that have made the
difference here?

Tony Ortega wrote:

>In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should not have felt obliged to
>wait after Lance crashed on the climb up Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident
>two years ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent. Rather than take
>advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German to catch up.
>
>But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it happened at a less crucial
>time: "Two years ago, it was a great gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were
>going downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never accelerate like Lance."
>(http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>
>I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour should have outweighed his
>feelings of fair play. That's not very sporting, is it, Phil?
>
>Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the others to make sure everyone held
>up for Lance to get back.
>
>That was some race this morning.
>
>Tony Ortega Phoenix, Arizona

Tony Ortega wrote:
>
> In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should not have felt obliged to
> wait after Lance crashed on the climb up Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident
> two years ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent. Rather than take
> advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German to catch up.
>
> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it happened at a less crucial
> time: "Two years ago, it was a great gesture, but of little importance to the race - they were
> going downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never accelerate like Lance."
> (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>
> I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour should have outweighed his
> feelings of fair play. That's not very sporting, is it, Phil?
>
> Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the others to make sure everyone held
> up for Lance to get back.
>
> That was some race this morning.
>
> Tony Ortega Phoenix, Arizona

Regardless of what the Ulrich/Lance bashers have to say, this has been one HELL of a Centenary Tour!
I can't wait to hear from a buddy of mine who went over to watch the Mountain stages. I am also
ordering the DVD (extended play) the minute it is available.

To Lance, Jan, and Vino: Bravo! Well done lads!

Joe
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#----------------------------------------------------------# Software development, QA and testing. #
#Linux support and training. # "Don't fear the penguin!" #
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For those of you that have raced to any extent, you will know of the bond that forms between
competitors. It's the closest peacetime experience similiar to the bond that forms between soldiers
as a result of combat, although I can't speak from that experience, thankfully. I recall being in a
race when my nemesis crashed, I chose to stop and make sure he was okay, it looked like it could
have been serious, than to take advantage of it and getting a few points on him. Granted it was not
the Tour but I think the spirit is the same.

Roger Bogda

"Tony Ortega" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should not have felt obliged to
> wait after Lance crashed on the climb up Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident
> two years ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent. Rather than take
> advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German to catch up.
>
> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it happened at a less crucial
> time: "Two years ago, it was a great gesture, but of little importance to the race - they were
> going downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never accelerate like Lance."
> (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>
> I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour should have outweighed his
> feelings of fair play. That's not very sporting, is it, Phil?
>
> Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the others to make sure everyone held
> up for Lance to get back.
>
> That was some race this morning.
>
> Tony Ortega Phoenix, Arizona

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:42:49 GMT, "Brian P" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I see your point, but in the heat of the moment, I bet it was a tough decision. Could be that had
>Jan known lance had the legs today, his decision might have been different. There is a fine line
>between sportsmanship and foolishness. Just an observation.

Jan clearly hesistated, even before the gesture of Hamilton.

I think he very wel realized that he could not win this etappe, by ignoring the unwritten law.
Everybody knows Lance has a good memory, he would never forgive this.

And everybody could see how motivated Lance was after this bad luck. Can you imagine how he would
have reacted if Jan didn't wait for him? First, the gap between the two at the fnish would be
doubled, at least. Second, Lance would be flying, next saterday.

Groet, Arne Vogel

I think Ullrich made a huge tactical error. He should have attacked. Sure Lance waited for him 2
years ago. But I beleive Lance already have several minutes on Jan at that time. I bet if the time
difference was 15 seconds 2 years ago, Lance would have attacked after Jan spilled

I think Lance used his spill today the best he could. The group waited for him, then he attacked the
group minutes later. Tactically, he rode a great race.

"Gary" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Seems to me there is special treatment for the leader of the race. Would that have made the
> difference here?
>
> Tony Ortega wrote:
>
> >In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should not have felt obliged to
> >wait after Lance crashed on the climb up Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident
> >two years ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent. Rather than take
> >advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German to catch up.
> >
> >But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it happened at a less crucial
> >time: "Two years ago, it was a great gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were
> >going downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never accelerate like Lance."
> >(http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
> >
> >I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour should have outweighed his
> >feelings of fair play. That's not very sporting, is it, Phil?
> >
> >Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the others to make sure everyone
> >held up for Lance to get back.
> >
> >That was some race this morning.
> >
> >Tony Ortega Phoenix, Arizona
> >

"Joseph Cipale" <[email protected]> wrote in message

<snip> I am also ordering
> the DVD (extended play) the minute it is available.

What you say is an assumption based on a fanciful scenario. The fact is that Armstrong did wait for
Jan. Whatever else you might say about Jan, he has always struck me as an honorable fellow and would
feel honor bound to return the gesture.

Plus, if Jan had not waited, his memory would still be excoriated long after his death.

zeno

Bob Wong wrote:
> I think Ullrich made a huge tactical error. He should have attacked. Sure Lance waited for him 2
> years ago. But I beleive Lance already have several minutes on Jan at that time. I bet if the time
> difference was 15 seconds 2 years ago, Lance would have attacked after Jan spilled
>
> I think Lance used his spill today the best he could. The group waited for him, then he attacked
> the group minutes later. Tactically, he rode a great race.
>
>
> "Gary" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>Seems to me there is special treatment for the leader of the race. Would that have made the
>>difference here?
>>
>>Tony Ortega wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should not have felt obliged to
>>>wait after Lance crashed on the climb up Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident
>>>two years ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent. Rather than take
>>>advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German to catch up.
>>>
>>>But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it happened at a less crucial
>>>time: "Two years ago, it was a great gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were
>>>going downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never accelerate like Lance."
>>>(http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>>>
>>>I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour should have outweighed his
>>>feelings of fair play. That's not very sporting, is it, Phil?
>>>
>>>Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the others to make sure everyone
>>>held up for Lance to get back.
>>>
>>>That was some race this morning.
>>>
>>>Tony Ortega Phoenix, Arizona
>>>
>>>
>>

Tony Ortega wrote:
> In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should not have felt obliged to
> wait after Lance crashed on the climb up Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident
> two years ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent. Rather than take
> advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German to catch up.
>
> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it happened at a less crucial
> time: "Two years ago, it was a great gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were
> going downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never accelerate like Lance."
> (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)

http://www.velonews.com/tour2003/details/articles/4620.1.html

As for Ullrich, he resigned himself to the day's loss. "It's only fair that we waited for
Armstrong," he said. "I don't think I lost any of my rhythm. It was nice to catch my breath. Lance
was the strongest today, you have to give him credit. There's still a time trial left, so the Tour
is not over."

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it happened at a less crucial
> time: "Two years ago, it was a great gesture, but of little importance to the race - they were
> going downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never accelerate like Lance."
> (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)

I agree with Phil...sort of. It wouldn't have been sporting for Jan to attach after the crash but in
a strange way I think the crash may have been more detrimental to Jan then Lance. Why? As Phil
mentioned Ullrich is a "rhythm" or "diesel" rider...he has to get the engine rolling and doesn't
have Lances jump. Remember before the crash Lance attacked and Mayo and Ullrich covered it....Jan
was rolling. After the crash Lance got a team mate back and he didn't have to chase too hard to get
back to the group of GC leaders.....which he then sat on (with his team mate in the lead) and then
attacked (as a counter to Mayo if I remember). Without the crash I think Jan would have sat on
Lances wheel and there is a better chance they would have finished together. There still is a good
chance Lance would have jumped again but I still think Jan got the "short end of the stick" out of
the crash situation.

Steve

Joseph Cipale <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

<snip>

> of mine who went over to watch the Mountain stages. I am also ordering the DVD (extended play) the
> minute it is available.

Screw that!!! Save your money and go see the IMAX instead.

- Boyd S.

Obviously Ullrich would have been better off continuing. But he still gained a benefit from slowing,
he still gained recovery. If you've ever climbed where you had to stop, you've experienced this. You
stop for, for example, 10 seconds to take a , well, never mind, then get going again and you quickly
close most of the gap, because of the rest.

I think w/o the crash, Armstrong would have won the stage anyway, by either more or less or the same
time, there's no way to say.

Dan

Raptor wrote:
> Tony Ortega wrote:
>
>> In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should not have felt obliged to
>> wait after Lance crashed on the climb up Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident
>> two years ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent. Rather than take
>> advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German to catch up.
>>
>> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it happened at a less crucial
>> time: "Two years ago, it was a great gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were
>> going downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never accelerate like Lance."
>> (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>
>
>
> http://www.velonews.com/tour2003/details/articles/4620.1.html
>
> As for Ullrich, he resigned himself to the day's loss. "It's only fair that we waited for
> Armstrong," he said. "I don't think I lost any of my rhythm. It was nice to catch my breath. Lance
> was the strongest today, you have to give him credit. There's still a time trial left, so the Tour
> is not over."

<quote who= zeno [email protected]/>:
> What you say is an assumption based on a fanciful scenario. The fact is that Armstrong did wait
> for Jan. Whatever else you might say about Jan, he has always struck me as an honorable fellow and
> would feel honor bound to return the gesture.

Armstrong waited for as long as he could. He waited until Beloki attacked at the bottom of the
descent. Armstrong of course had no choice but to chase. End result was that Ullrich got back on
so no damage done. But Beloki will forever be remembered for that move in my mind.

I agree, Ullrich had to wait. Do you want to be known as the guy who won the Tour by attacking a
yellow jersey that had just crashed? You'd regret it for the rest of your life. Waiting is the
_only_ thing to do.

On the other end of the sportsman spectrum we have those two Spaniards who did fsck all the
entire climb only to sprint for the time bonus. And for WHAT!?! That time bonus means a world
more to Ullrich then to either of those two punks. At a MINIMUM they should have sat up for
thanks for pulling their arses up that climb.

I _had_ respect for Mayo until today. I hope both of them go down in a ball of flames on
Saturday. Jack asses.

J

--
Justin F. Knotzke [email protected] http://www.shampoo.ca

zeno <[email protected]> wrote:
> What you say is an assumption based on a fanciful scenario. The fact is that Armstrong did wait
> for Jan. Whatever else you might say about Jan, he has always struck me as an honorable fellow and
> would feel honor bound to return the gesture.

What was the incident they kept referring back to where Jan had a flat? It seemed that they stressed
this far more than the Ride into the "void".

> Plus, if Jan had not waited, his memory would still be excoriated long after his death.

> zeno

> Bob Wong wrote:
>> I think Ullrich made a huge tactical error. He should have attacked. Sure Lance waited for him 2
>> years ago. But I beleive Lance already have several minutes on Jan at that time. I bet if the
>> time difference was 15 seconds 2 years ago, Lance would have attacked after Jan spilled
>>
>> I think Lance used his spill today the best he could. The group waited for him, then he attacked
>> the group minutes later. Tactically, he rode a great race.
>>
>>
>> "Gary" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Seems to me there is special treatment for the leader of the race. Would that have made the
>>>difference here?
>>>
>>>Tony Ortega wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should not have felt obliged to
>>>>wait after Lance crashed on the climb up Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the
>>>>incident two years ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent. Rather than
>>>>take advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German to catch up.
>>>>
>>>>But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it happened at a less crucial
>>>>time: "Two years ago, it was a great gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were
>>>>going downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never accelerate like Lance."
>>>>(http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>>>>
>>>>I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour should have outweighed his
>>>>feelings of fair play. That's not very sporting, is it, Phil?
>>>>
>>>>Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the others to make sure everyone
>>>>held up for Lance to get back.
>>>>
>>>>That was some race this morning.
>>>>
>>>>Tony Ortega Phoenix, Arizona
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>

>There still is a good chance Lance would have jumped again but I still think Jan got the "short end
>of the stick" out of the crash situation.
>
>Steve

Absolutely not. Only Lance lost because of the crash. Mentally it was bad, rhythmically it was bad
for Lance. Jan would never have caught back up to Lance when Lance counter Mayos surge. The crash
let Jan catch up only to delay the inevitable. Lance probably would have put another 5-10 seconds
into Jan without the crash.

And Jan had a chance to recover a bit while they backed off waiting for Lance. There would have been
no recovering if Lance had not crashed.

Jan himself said on TV that the crash benefitted him because he gathered his legs up a bit for a
minute or two.

In article <[email protected]>, Steve Litvin <[email protected]> wrote:

Since Jan was willing to wait for Lance today after the crash, wouldn't he have been able to ask
people to wait for him when he had his unmentionable problem a couple of days ago? Or is that
unreasonable?

"Bob Wong" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I think Lance used his spill today the best he could. The group waited
for
> him, then he attacked the group minutes later. Tactically, he rode a
great
> race.

The group waited, and then Mayo attacked the group. Lance then attacked Mayo and left them
all behind.

"Justin F. Knotzke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
> On the other end of the sportsman spectrum we have those two Spaniards who did fsck all the
> entire climb only to sprint for the time bonus. And for WHAT!?! That time bonus means a world
> more to Ullrich then to either of those two punks.

That is exactly right.

If they were going for the win, the rationale could be there.

Sprinting for 2nd and taking something important away from someone who aided you (and gaining very
little for yourself) is just stupid and selfish.

It's not even good for the team sponsor.

Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Justin F. Knotzke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>> On the other end of the sportsman spectrum we have those two Spaniards who did fsck all the
>> entire climb only to sprint for the time bonus. And for WHAT!?! That time bonus means a world
>> more to Ullrich then to either of those two punks.

> That is exactly right.

> If they were going for the win, the rationale could be there.

> Sprinting for 2nd and taking something important away from someone who aided you (and gaining very
> little for yourself) is just stupid and selfish.

> It's not even good for the team sponsor.

Except that it is a Basque team, lots of Basque fans and probably very good for the sponsor.