Race report: Mt. Wilson Trail run



D

Dan Stumpus

Guest
This little 8.4 mile gem starts in the quaint town of Sierra Madre, 12 miles
northeast of LA, at the foot of the San Gabriel mountains. It's an
out-and-back course that runs 4.2 miles up, and turns around at the ruins of
Orchard Camp about half way up the mountain. My altimeter watch recorded
2400 feet of climb (571'/mile).

This site has some nice pix of the trail:
http://english.glendale.cc.ca.us/mwtrail061502.html

About 400 runners lined up at the start. The rules of the road were
announced: Downhill runners have the right of way, and have rights to the
mountain side of the trail.

I figured I'd finish in the top eighth, so I was about 15 feet behind the
line. At the gun we charged up the paved uphill to the trailhead about 3/4
of a mile away. I glanced at my heart rate, and was surprised to see it at
165 after just a couple of minutes. I hoped I could keep it up to the top!

At the trailhead the course becomes a narrow single track, with lots of
rocks and steep drop-offs. About a year ago a local runner fell during a
sunset hike with his daughter and died before he could be rescued. There
are places you could fall a few hundred feet before a tree of large bush
would stop you. The Sierra Madre Search and Rescue folks manned most of the
dangerous spots on the trail.

It's a tough climb. Everyone's breathing hard. High school tracksters are
stopping and catching their breath, then zipping back into action. After a
couple of miles it's clear that many have started too fast.

My strategy was to let my breathing do whatever it wanted (between 2 and 3
steps per breath cycle), but keep my quads just on the threshold of burning.
Quad burn can be lethal to a good time in this race -- you need a good
supply of glycogen to run fast and under control on the steep and rocky
return trip.

I did my patented fast walking on the steepest (20+%) grades, and as usual,
had no trouble keeping up with runners around me who were jogging them. I
probably fast hiked (at a 165 pulse!) 3-4 minutes of my 52 minute ascent.
At that effort, it's only slightly less difficult than running. At one
point I passed the winning woman on a fast walk as she jogged up a steep
grade (she pulled away from me at the turnaround, and passed the two women
ahead of her to take the victory).

About a mile from the turn around, the winner came blasting down, saying
"watch out, watch out!" He was a couple of minutes in front and would win
easily (if you can call any win easy).

After several small water crossings, we made it to the Orchard Camp turn
around at the tail end of a 1/3 mile descent. The normally easy climb out
of Orchard was *really* hard, doubly so because I was really ready for some
downhill running, where form, not horsepower, is king. For most of the
descent, I had a tail of two younger runners, and I had to let them pass as
we hit a couple of very rocky or slippery areas -- my days of fearless
rock-hopping are long gone. It felt good to be able to stretch out on the
sections of smooth trail.

I passed a few people on the way down who had blown it all out on the
uphill. Some were going quite a bit slower than I was. About a mile and a
half from the finish, I looked up and across a small fijord and saw that
there was no one within a minute of me, which was a relief. I hate getting
passed at the end of a race! In no time I had run through the trailhead,
and hit the city streets for the last 3/4 mile. I put my eye on a guy about
50 yards ahead of me, and picked it up a bit -- I was hurting but there was
only a few minutes to go. I also wanted to reserve enough for a kick if
necessary. I passed the guy about 500 yds from the finish, and slowly
accelerated. At 200 yards out, a friend in the crowd warned me that the guy
was kicking, so it was my turn to let loose. Faster, faster, keep your
form. I gradually accelerated right up to the finish mat, and didn't have
to use that last 1%.

I did a reverse Lance (kept a kicker from nipping me at the end).

At the end I walked about 30 feet hunched over, heaving to catch my breath,
with my eyes closed, while a couple of ladies begged me to stop so they
could reclaim their chip. A search and rescue guy asked me if I was ok, and
I said, "Just the usual near-death experience!"

I finished around 50/400 overall, 5th in the 50's. Two Veterans were just a
minute or two up on me. I could have gotten 3rd if I'd done my speedwork --
maybe next year.

-- Dan
 
[email protected] wrote:

[...]

> I did my patented fast walking on the steepest (20+%) grades, and as
> usual, had no trouble keeping up with runners around me who were
> jogging them.

What exactly is your patented fast walking? Are you selling it? ;-)

> I finished around 50/400 overall, 5th in the 50's. Two Veterans were
> just a minute or two up on me. I could have gotten 3rd if I'd done my
> speedwork -- maybe next year.

Good job. Thanks for the report. That's some beautiful country you've got
out there.

--
Phil M.
 
Dan Stumpus wrote in message ...
>This little 8.4 mile gem starts in the quaint town of Sierra Madre, 12
miles
>northeast of LA, at the foot of the San Gabriel mountains. It's an
>out-and-back course that runs 4.2 miles up, and turns around at the ruins
of
>Orchard Camp about half way up the mountain. My altimeter watch recorded
>2400 feet of climb (571'/mile).
>
>This site has some nice pix of the trail:
>http://english.glendale.cc.ca.us/mwtrail061502.html

Yet another very good result Dan, thanks for the report. I wish we had more
regular trail/mountain races localized here in the NYC area in the east. We
have plenty of great locations for trail runs, but they're scattered around.
I guess it's partly the unique geography of California that gives you guys
easy access to the larger mountains that become a focus. Also the weather
and a more active/outdoor lifestyle out there seems to help produce more
races.

The photos remind me of the trails I ran while visiting the Marin county
area a few years ago, though there were more trees in Marin as I remember.
It looks dry though, and I'd be dying of thirst after a mile :) When I ran
in the mountains above Palm Springs I sucked down so much water it became
impractical to go very far, and that was in winter.

-Tony
 
Dan Stumpus wrote:
> This little 8.4 mile gem starts in the quaint town of Sierra Madre, 12 miles
> northeast of LA, at the foot of the San Gabriel mountains. It's an
> out-and-back course that runs 4.2 miles up, and turns around at the ruins of
> Orchard Camp about half way up the mountain. My altimeter watch recorded
> 2400 feet of climb (571'/mile).
>
> This site has some nice pix of the trail:
> http://english.glendale.cc.ca.us/mwtrail061502.html

Nice pics illustrating trail, and I found some interesting history on
the race's web page! Sounds like an interesting trail.

>
> At the end I walked about 30 feet hunched over, heaving to catch my breath,
> with my eyes closed, while a couple of ladies begged me to stop so they
> could reclaim their chip. A search and rescue guy asked me if I was ok, and
> I said, "Just the usual near-death experience!"
>
> I finished around 50/400 overall, 5th in the 50's. Two Veterans were just a
> minute or two up on me. I could have gotten 3rd if I'd done my speedwork --
> maybe next year.
>
Nice race and nice report, Dan! Thanks.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
 
"TwitteringOne" <[email protected]> wrote

> Looks
> A little dry.

The Chapparal around LA is typically green
and with a huge variety of flowers in the spring.
When it dries out in the summer, the annuals die off,
and/or natural and unnatural fires renew things every 20 years or so.
So you get brown (or black, if burned) in the summer.
Until the next winter rains, when it starts all over again.

Because of the rains LA got this year (most in 100 years), things are
amazingly green, and streams are flowing freely.
 
"Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote

>> I did my patented fast walking on the steepest (20+%) grades, and as
>> usual, had no trouble keeping up with runners around me who were
>> jogging them.
>
> What exactly is your patented fast walking? Are you selling it? ;-)

I experimented with it on my last 50 miler, when I found I could fast walk
steep uphills at race pace with a bit less energy. It's a kick to pass
people running while walking fast. In this race, my pulse was 165 while
walking, so it's not just strolling along by any means. Heads spin.
'Course when it flattens out a bit, I revert to running.

>> I finished around 50/400 overall, 5th in the 50's. Two Veterans were
>> just a minute or two up on me. I could have gotten 3rd if I'd done my
>> speedwork -- maybe next year.
>
> Good job.

Next year I'll taper a bit for the race. I had a non-restful week (tempo
run, 75 miles, hill repeats and no days off) leading up to the race. (It's
always important to have your excuses lined up in advance :)

> Thanks for the report. That's some beautiful country you've got
> out there.

I never get tired of the scenery. There are well over 100 miles of trail
and fire-road within 40 minutes of my house (a few miles west of downtown
L.A.).


-- Dan
 
"Dan Stumpus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:MGLme.3936> I experimented with it on my last 50 miler, when I
found I could fast walk
> steep uphills at race pace with a bit less energy. It's a kick to
> pass people running while walking fast. In this race, my pulse was
> 165 while walking, so it's not just strolling along by any means.
> Heads spin.

I have been doing this and saying it for years, power walk the steep ups
and conserve. One also needs to practice power hiking so you are
effective race day. It's not as if on race day you say gee I'll hike
this hill to save energy. You can lose your effectiveness getting up the
hill running or walking.

Personally, I do not like to train intermixing running and hiking as you
would on race day. I have found it too easy break into a hike when
"things" are not ideal. When I'm early in my training cycle I will run
and hike on different days. How far apart is proportional to my
recovery. When get about 1/2 way I will pull them together yet keep
them separate. I will solid run for N hours and then solid hike for N
hours. For longer races that constitute back-2-back training, I will
solid run Saturday and solid hike Sunday on tired legs. Less trauma yet
get the time on my feet.

I'm not suggesting that someone new to trail running and longer
distances try this. It is a variation in technique for those with some
years of experience and intimate with their recovery rate.


> 'Course when it flattens out a bit, I revert to running.

Those people that run those nasty ups in front of you usually fold up
later in the race. They not only walk the ups but walk the levels or run
the levels such that walking would be faster.


> Next year I'll taper a bit for the race.

Now that is a novel idea. :) It will subtract many minutes from your
time. Just a warning, the rest, once you get past the guilt of not
running or very little, will have you feeling really charged with
energy when you toe the line. Don't let that energy encourage you to run
faster from the start. Believe me it happens when you drop your
concentration. That comfortable pace is really too fast and why I
always say, find a pace that feels comfortable and then run slower. It
pays off many fold in the later stages of the race when your still
cruising and the others are in a death march.

-DougF
 
On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:53:33 GMT, "Doug Freese" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Dan Stumpus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:MGLme.3936>
>> I experimented with it on my last 50 miler, when I
>> found I could fast walk
>> steep uphills at race pace with a bit less energy. It's a kick to
>> pass people running while walking fast. In this race, my pulse was
>> 165 while walking, so it's not just strolling along by any means.
>
>I have been doing this and saying it for years, power walk the steep ups
>and conserve. One also needs to practice power hiking so you are
>effective race day. It's not as if on race day you say gee I'll hike
>this hill to save energy. You can lose your effectiveness getting up the
>hill running or walking.
>
>Personally, I do not like to train intermixing running and hiking as you
>would on race day.
i agree. i figure when i'm training running, i should be trying to
improve that. so some days, when i feel lousy, i train walk.
up as steep as the treadmill will go. and out on the trails,
in a race, i walk all the uphills right from the start. i start
running again just as the hill is starting to flatten out.
i notice plenty of the folks at my level don't start running
again till they are on top of the hill. they lose a lot by that.

others advise differently, but it sems obvious to me
that there is very little speed diff between a fast
walk and a slow tiny-step run uphill. and you're saving
the running muscles.

one more thing, as we get closer to the finish my definition
of a hill changes. i run a bit more if i can. cause there's
nothing left to save my strength for.
....thehick
 
Doug Freese wrote:
> "Dan Stumpus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:MGLme.3936> I experimented with it on my last 50 miler, when I
> found I could fast walk
>
>>steep uphills at race pace with a bit less energy. It's a kick to
>>pass people running while walking fast. In this race, my pulse was
>>165 while walking, so it's not just strolling along by any means.
>>Heads spin.
>
>
> I have been doing this and saying it for years, power walk the steep ups
> and conserve. One also needs to practice power hiking so you are
> effective race day. It's not as if on race day you say gee I'll hike
> this hill to save energy. You can lose your effectiveness getting up the
> hill running or walking.
>
> Personally, I do not like to train intermixing running and hiking as you
> would on race day. I have found it too easy break into a hike when
> "things" are not ideal. When I'm early in my training cycle I will run
> and hike on different days. How far apart is proportional to my
> recovery. When get about 1/2 way I will pull them together yet keep
> them separate. I will solid run for N hours and then solid hike for N
> hours. For longer races that constitute back-2-back training, I will
> solid run Saturday and solid hike Sunday on tired legs. Less trauma yet
> get the time on my feet.
>
> I'm not suggesting that someone new to trail running and longer
> distances try this. It is a variation in technique for those with some
> years of experience and intimate with their recovery rate.
>


For curiosity, if you were building strength and endurance to run a 10%
slope 1000ft hill, but longer term goal might be 4000ft 10% hill, would
you start by (1) inserting long enough walk breaks to make it
relatively easy to do (=reduce recovery) 1 rep, so you could do 2 or
more reps (not hard) on first try or (2) making it a little harder by
reducing the walk break length so you might only be able to do 1 rep and
recovery might be longer. Time per rep might be around 1+ hr and would
be looking at doing this every 2 wks. #1 would build TOL first (2+ hr),
#2 (1+ hr) would be configured more like ultimate goal.

I'm thinking in terms of something like 9 min run / 1 min walk as the
harder version vs maybe 7 min run / 3 min (8/2?) walk as the easier one
(both easier during the run and less recovery afterwards; much of the
needed recovery results from the eccentric downhill).

I did do something like 9 or 10/1 last year, which wasn't too bad, and
felt better than 14,1,10,1,7 (or something like that where the amount I
could run was rapidly decreasing) on my first attempt. I'm terrible at
taking breaks longer than about 1 min along gravel roads with some
traffic (can do it mid-week next month).

I do have something in mind for other reasons. Just curious what your
thoughts might be, unbiased by my other considerations.

And, no, I wouldn't be looking at running up something like that in a
long race, but looking more at just plain building strength and endurance.

Thanks.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
 
"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> For curiosity, if you were building strength and endurance to run a
> 10% slope 1000ft hill, but longer term goal might be 4000ft 10% hill,
> would you start by (1) inserting long enough walk breaks to make it
> relatively easy to do (=reduce recovery)

The first thing you need to do is get up the 1,000 without stopping. At
first it may take N walk breaks but each time you return, try to do
with n-1 breaks. There is a psycological(and pyhsical) barrier to break.
Once you know you can get up the hill witout a walk break, it becomes
easier, almost accepted.

If the next goal is to crank up 4,000 I would run 1,000 then hike say
another 1,000. We need the hike and it gives you extra strength in
general. Then run the first and do the second just like you did the
first with breaks if needed. The pace should be forward progress. As you
get stronger over time, the laps will likely get faster but as long as
your doing multiples don't attack the first. How big an interval of
distance lop off is proportional to your current condition and recovery.



I'm suggesting you go for completed elevation laps without breaks and
stay in a comfortable breathing range. It's usually the legs that bark
the most and not your breathing. As long as your still trying to add
another interval start it with the hike and get used to the time on your
feet.

Where you stop has no limits...so to speak.



> And, no, I wouldn't be looking at running up something like that in a
> long race, but looking more at just plain building strength and
> endurance.

And confidence....

-DougF
 
Doug Freese wrote:

> The first thing you need to do is get up the 1,000 without stopping. At
> first it may take N walk breaks but each time you return, try to do
> with n-1 breaks. There is a psycological(and pyhsical) barrier to break.
> Once you know you can get up the hill witout a walk break, it becomes
> easier, almost accepted.

I will offer a slightly different approach. Try running (easily!) as far
up as you can without walking and make a note of where it is. Then the
next time, go a little farther like to the next tree, rock, bend, etc.
Every time add a little and before you know it, you will run the whole
thing.

BTW, I agree with Doug that you first have to convince yourself you can
get to the top, so always get up there on all your attempts. Even if
that means walking the rest of the way or taking a walk break and then
running some more.

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/
 
The Trailrunner wrote:
>
>
> Doug Freese wrote:
>
>> The first thing you need to do is get up the 1,000 without stopping.
>> At first it may take N walk breaks but each time you return, try to
>> do with n-1 breaks. There is a psycological(and pyhsical) barrier to
>> break. Once you know you can get up the hill witout a walk break, it
>> becomes easier, almost accepted.
>
>
> I will offer a slightly different approach. Try running (easily!) as far
> up as you can without walking and make a note of where it is. Then the
> next time, go a little farther like to the next tree, rock, bend, etc.
> Every time add a little and before you know it, you will run the whole
> thing.
>
> BTW, I agree with Doug that you first have to convince yourself you can
> get to the top, so always get up there on all your attempts. Even if
> that means walking the rest of the way or taking a walk break and then
> running some more.
>

Thanks, Doug and Trailrunner.

How about this approach: run as much as I can on 1st time up (but not
push it to aggravate hip problem like I did a couple years ago on
steeper hill), over the top of the pass (fairly gentle down for a couple
minutes=nice breather), then run down the other side, hike back up and
over. In other words rep 1 is intended to be running (min walk breaks),
rep 2 is hiking.

Or run up, hike down the other side, hike back up, then run down to car
- at least for starters. This 2nd scenario would be a little easier
since my legs wouldn't be quite as trashed from the downhill. Yea, I
know, slow down ;) But that's an adjustment I'm still trying to figure
what works for me - and will change substantially with training. It is
kinda fun to go bombing down a 10% gravel road instead of a 30% twisty,
turny single track with stinging nettles hanging over it for something
different ;) Also, running after a long downhill is something I need to
work on. Most of my training is small rolling hills or a mountain, but
only once - need to fix that.


My personal bias is that it's about 1.5 hr rt drive so was looking for
closer to 2-hr workout rather than 1 hr. This is the Hatcher Pass area
that's all above treeline and drop-dead gorgeous (we all have our
reasons for running). I want to scout the other side of the pass for a
dirt road run to the pass - not sure I've ever been there and not sure
about safe place to park or turn around (not as heavily travelled on
that side). It also provides good gear testing opportunities if weather
is blowing or raining.

There is another hill, not quite as scenic and a little closer - about
800+ ft, but not sure of slope (new trail that I've never been up), that
I could try running before I try Hatcher this year. I think it might be
comparable or maybe a little steeper. They've been putting switchbacks
in the newer trails to reduce erosion. I hiked Lazy (3000ft, 30%) on
Sunday (with no picture breaks on the way up like I usually do),
probably ran over half of the downhill - run the steep stuff, recover on
the few gentle areas.


I went to double check my numbers from last year, and unfortunately that
period is when I didn't have a hrm and hence didn't record interval
times. I do remember the first time starting slow and slowing, then
reaching for the next curve or the base / top of the next steep/shallow
area or whatever, etc until I got to top. I may have gone farther than I
remembered before walk break, but I only used 2 1-min breaks (about 32
min total), but remember struggling. I deliberately did not allow myself
more than 1-min break. Muscle fatigue was limiting factor. I was toast
at the top, recovered with picture taking, etc then bombed down. I think
the recovery may have been needed more from pounding on the downhill,
which was coarse gravel, not quite cobbly, and really hard because of
heat and drought (unusual circumstances). Next attempt 2 months later
was cooler, and I took the approach of "if you wait until you have to
walk, then you waited too long" - and took the breaks at 12 and 8 min
with 1 min break each time. I wasn't nearly as tired. I ran down, but
not quite as fast, and the ground was softer from rain. Recovery was
much better. I think the 9/1 that I thought I had done may have been
what I thought my next try should be to get the intervals more even.

I used rounded numbers in my first post. It's actually about 850 ft in
1.5 mi for 10%. It's about 32 min up, then 20+ min down for me, iirc.

For shorter races (6-8 mi), the main hills are in the 10-20%, 500-2000ft
and one 13 miler with 3500ft in 4.5 mi at start. 50-mi race looks like
it's about 4000ft in about 20 mi (different animal), down then up a
smaller hill to finish - not sure how accurate the profile is regarding
little hills enroute to big hill.

I appreciate both of your comments and perspectives.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
 
Doug Freese wrote:
>
>
> I'm suggesting you go for completed elevation laps without breaks and
> stay in a comfortable breathing range. It's usually the legs that bark
> the most and not your breathing.

Absolutely. And when they start barking things tend to go quickly. It's
not as much of an issue on 10% slopes as on 30%, but sometimes I only
have one running gear - to be running, easy is hard - but that doesn't
happen as soon with 10%, which is why the selection.


>As long as your still trying to add
> another interval start it with the hike and get used to the time on your
> feet.

ok, this would simulate a race more (doing the run with non-fresh legs),
whereas my original proposal was trying to do both laps the same way,
and my more recent proposal (response to you and Trailrunner) was to get
tired first (run) before I hiked - and to get feeling of going up big
hill again after running down one. First time round, I think I'm more
inclined to run first, then hike - just so I can run the max without
walking.

FWIW, I probably have about 8-10 wks, depending on what races I do or
don't do, before fall. Snow could be on this hill by Labor Day or
shortly after, but maybe not. There's about 7 trails that I want to use
for long runs or big hills - some of which worked well in the past, some
are new and want to explore, some are parts of races. Although some of
those are new and parts of races, I may decide not to drive to Anchorage
to run them when we have so many good trails locally. So with my current
volume and condition, I may not get to do this hill more than a couple
times. I'm trying to alternate long run and big hills each week, but I
might have to put a lighter week in every 3rd or 4th week.


>
>>And, no, I wouldn't be looking at running up something like that in a
>>long race, but looking more at just plain building strength and
>>endurance.
>
>
> And confidence....
>
Right. You know me too well ;)

Thank you.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
 
Dot wrote in message ...
>Doug Freese wrote:
>> "Dan Stumpus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:MGLme.3936> I experimented with it on my last 50 miler, when I
>> found I could fast walk
>>
>>>steep uphills at race pace with a bit less energy. It's a kick to
>>>pass people running while walking fast. In this race, my pulse was
>>>165 while walking, so it's not just strolling along by any means.
>>>Heads spin.
>>
>>
>> I have been doing this and saying it for years, power walk the steep ups
>> and conserve. One also needs to practice power hiking so you are
>> effective race day. It's not as if on race day you say gee I'll hike
>> this hill to save energy. You can lose your effectiveness getting up the
>> hill running or walking.
>>
>> Personally, I do not like to train intermixing running and hiking as you
>> would on race day. I have found it too easy break into a hike when
>> "things" are not ideal. When I'm early in my training cycle I will run
>> and hike on different days. How far apart is proportional to my
>> recovery. When get about 1/2 way I will pull them together yet keep
>> them separate. I will solid run for N hours and then solid hike for N
>> hours. For longer races that constitute back-2-back training, I will
>> solid run Saturday and solid hike Sunday on tired legs. Less trauma yet
>> get the time on my feet.
>>
>> I'm not suggesting that someone new to trail running and longer
>> distances try this. It is a variation in technique for those with some
>> years of experience and intimate with their recovery rate.
>>
>For curiosity, if you were building strength and endurance to run a 10%
>slope 1000ft hill, but longer term goal might be 4000ft 10% hill, would
>you start by (1) inserting long enough walk breaks to make it
>relatively easy to do (=reduce recovery) 1 rep, so you could do 2 or
>more reps (not hard) on first try or (2) making it a little harder by
>reducing the walk break length so you might only be able to do 1 rep and
>recovery might be longer. Time per rep might be around 1+ hr and would
>be looking at doing this every 2 wks. #1 would build TOL first (2+ hr),
>#2 (1+ hr) would be configured more like ultimate goal.

For me it's about getting the legs to learn to run hills at close to the
same sub-threshold effort level that they can do on the flats. For example,
when in shape I can run tempo efforts at HR 170 for 20-30 mins. Normally, to
run hills at that tempo would rip up my legs in less than 10 mins, but just
like it takes time to work up to that length of tempo run on flats, it takes
the uphill running muscles time to adapt also.

This year it took a while before my general running threshold was up there
again, but it took even longer for my uphill running threshold to get closer
to my flat running threshold. I could run flats a couple of hours at HR 150,
but even that level felt uncomfortable on hills at first.

To build strength and endurance on the hills this year I've been running the
longer hills at about HR 160-165 (marathon HR) until it goes above 170 (or
the legs are screaming whichever is first). Then I walk until it drops to
about 155 and start running again. Using this method on the longer hills for
the past 6 weeks or so, I'm able to run just about everything now on shorter
runs, and most of the hills on long runs (over difficult terrain) -
something I was unable to do last year. I chose marathon effort because
during long runs I've been doing 30-50 mins of this uphill training, in
segments varying from 5 to 20 mins, which is far too taxing closer to LT
when running for a few hours.

>I'm thinking in terms of something like 9 min run / 1 min walk as the
>harder version vs maybe 7 min run / 3 min (8/2?) walk as the easier one
>(both easier during the run and less recovery afterwards; much of the
>needed recovery results from the eccentric downhill).

Are you talking about hammering on the downhill and then not having as much
left for the next uphill?

>I did do something like 9 or 10/1 last year, which wasn't too bad, and
>felt better than 14,1,10,1,7 (or something like that where the amount I
>could run was rapidly decreasing) on my first attempt. I'm terrible at
>taking breaks longer than about 1 min along gravel roads with some
>traffic (can do it mid-week next month).

I'd say try it the opposite way: take it easier at first and extend the
running segements. Often the legs warm up to his kind of progression well.
Try something like 4:1, 6:1, 8:1, 10:1... I've done those (on flats) on days
when I just feel like **** and by the 3rd or 4th I'm getting smooth and
begin to extend the breaks out much longer to 15-20 mins. The next time you
go back to the same hill try starting out with longer run segments.

>I do have something in mind for other reasons. Just curious what your
>thoughts might be, unbiased by my other considerations.
>
>And, no, I wouldn't be looking at running up something like that in a
>long race, but looking more at just plain building strength and endurance.

Depends on how long the race would be. Once you get your uphill running
legs, then check out your HR effort level and then you can start to
calculate what effort you can maintain for race distance, even up hills.

-Tony

>Thanks.
>
>Dot
>
>--
>"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
>away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
>
>
 
Tony wrote:

> Dot wrote in message ...
>
>>I'm thinking in terms of something like 9 min run / 1 min walk as the
>>harder version vs maybe 7 min run / 3 min (8/2?) walk as the easier one
>>(both easier during the run and less recovery afterwards; much of the
>>needed recovery results from the eccentric downhill).
>
>
> Are you talking about hammering on the downhill and then not having as much
> left for the next uphill?

Feet hurting from thin soles on rough gravel road that had been baked
into cement. This did not happen the 2nd time I tried, but the ground
was softer, I had a little bit more conditioning, and I held back on the
downhill a little bit.

Also, downhill running requires a lot of concentration. To switch from
bombing / glissading long downhill to running on flat or uphill is a
mental as well as gear switch for me. It's not an issue on my rolling
hills since I've run those 1-3 min hills so many times, I can just keep
going - although those routes do have a meat-grinder feeling. I still
need to adapt to that on bigger hills where it might be 20-60 min
downhill, then abrupt flat or uphill. I just hiked / ran down our 3000ft
30% hill on Sunday (1st time this year) then tried to run on the horse
trail at base, which is relatively flat - just to get an idea where I
was. Legs were definitely tired. It was also ankle deep hoof prints
after a few minutes so abandoned that idea.
>
>
>>I did do something like 9 or 10/1 last year, which wasn't too bad, and
>>felt better than 14,1,10,1,7 (or something like that where the amount I
>>could run was rapidly decreasing) on my first attempt. I'm terrible at
>>taking breaks longer than about 1 min along gravel roads with some
>>traffic (can do it mid-week next month).
>
>
> I'd say try it the opposite way: take it easier at first and extend the
> running segements. Often the legs warm up to his kind of progression well.
> Try something like 4:1, 6:1, 8:1, 10:1... I've done those (on flats) on days
> when I just feel like **** and by the 3rd or 4th I'm getting smooth and
> begin to extend the breaks out much longer to 15-20 mins. The next time you
> go back to the same hill try starting out with longer run segments.

I have a couple minute walk warmup on paved road before I get to the
gravel uphill. I'll usually do a little stretching there before I head
up. The first up is not as fluid as farther up, but I don't think taking
an early walk break is the solution, esp. not on a hill that I can
almost run completely. I guess I would rather challenge myself and see
how far I can get, reasonably, before walk mode.

I was puzzled by the lack of comments in my log about walk break in my
first try last year (no hrm then). After I got to thinking more about
it, I'm wondering if I did make it all the way the first time (couple
15-sec picture stops), then took a picture-taking break on top before
heading down. The recovery time was probably longer than I would like
during normal training, but I was out in field after that (=forced
recovery). I didn't want that long a recovery in early September when I
did it the 2nd time so inserted the walk breaks. Don't know where I am
this year yet, but probably not as far along as I was last - cruddy snow
conditions just made it difficult to get continuous runs in and hills
were icy - at least the ones I usually use. Higher elevation ones would
be better because of better snow conditions.

As an aside, I found my log notes were really weak for those few months
I didn't use a hrm. I could run fine, I just didn't record the detail I
normally do, and this is an example.
>
>
>>I do have something in mind for other reasons. Just curious what your
>>thoughts might be, unbiased by my other considerations.
>>
>>And, no, I wouldn't be looking at running up something like that in a
>>long race, but looking more at just plain building strength and endurance.
>
>
> Depends on how long the race would be. Once you get your uphill running
> legs, then check out your HR effort level and then you can start to
> calculate what effort you can maintain for race distance, even up hills.

Actually, I do it the other way. I try to maintain a certain effort
level (hr range) on average. Over time I've found that x% or some
breathing level was a little too hard for 2 hr run or whatever, so back
it off a little next time - or find that I can handle a higher
intensity. That way I also learn recovery times within a run if I get
going a little too hard. Long downhills may have low hr, but they may
not be a total break because of the concentration needed.


I tend to like Doug and Trailrunner's approach since it's easier to keep
track of - at least for this size hill. Either run it or hike it - this
is part of my intention of using a 10%, 850ft hill rather than 30%
3000ft hill. See how far you can go without a break, but don't go so far
that you can't recover within a minute or so. Another approach might be
to go longer so that a longer recovery might be needed, say 3 min, but
that might be more appropriate on a 2000 ft hill. At least for a few
hours duration hill runs, this will work for me.

What I was kinda approaching with the longer walk breaks is a recovery
break that's sufficient to allow digestion of food, kinda the 25/5min
ratio that Kevin S. used when winning national 24 hr (?) championship a
few years ago. But I think it makes more sense to leave that kind of
thing until later when runs are long enough that these things become an
issue.

Thanks for your comments.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
 
Dot wrote in message
<[email protected]>...
>Tony wrote:
>> Dot wrote in message ...
>...............
>What I was kinda approaching with the longer walk breaks is a recovery
>break that's sufficient to allow digestion of food, kinda the 25/5min
>ratio that Kevin S. used when winning national 24 hr (?) championship a
>few years ago. But I think it makes more sense to leave that kind of
>thing until later when runs are long enough that these things become an
>issue.
>
>Thanks for your comments.
>
>Dot

Since I'm having a better year on hills than I can remember, I just thought
I'd pipe in. I actually do the same thing regarding recovery: I track my
average HR for nearly every run, and adjust the overall pace on the next run
according to how I recover -- though reading the Hadd articles has me
wanting to keep my long run pace very easy most of the time since that's my
bread-and-butter endurance training. Hadd indicates sufficiently slow base
training to fully specify the slow-twitch muscles.

What I was referring to in my previous post here was the up-tempo pace for
hill-training and other tempo-like efforts thrown into my runs, most of
which are fartlek to some degree or another. I'm just saying that I'm
careful to try to keep those efforts at or below marathon effort, which
would be close to race pace for most longer races, but far enough under LT
that recovery is good enough to do a lot at that level. The Hadd articles
confirm this idea also, to my surprise.

-Tony
 
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