J
Jan
Guest
>Subject: Re: Battle For Honesty (Was Dr Rath's battle for justice)
>From: "Peter Moran" [email protected]
>Date: 7/24/2003 7:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>Jan, grow up, and give it a rest!
I was grown up a long time ago.
You need to correct your LIES, it is YOUR problem, not mine.
> I have allowed the possibility that
>there were informed consent violations in this case.
That was all discussed. The FACTS are the family was told nothing.
>I refuse to to be drawn into any further argument on the basis of a news
>report, on a subject on which neither of us have first hand knowledge.
The first hand knowledge came straight out of the father and mother's mouth.
They were on the show LIVE!!!
> I also find this so pathetic when you have been caught out in extravagant
>misrepresentations so frequently.
I have been caught in nothing, I have quoted the exact words of the entire
boardcast.
>I am glad that medical pioneers are trying to cure genetic disorders, and
>retroviruses are the most promising avenue. It is likely to be risky
>research. That does not excuse doctors from concealing risks from
>patients.
Well THANK YOU!!
WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT A LONG TIME AGO?!?!
>> I see no one fighting this blatant fraud.
>Ha!
Ha????????
That's an answer.
Ha??????
>You and your ilk
Whoops.
>refuse to even acknowledge that seriously ill
>patients are being routinely scammed within AM, even though you must know
>it.
You should know by now, I condone no wrong, and this is just an excuse because
you have been lying all this time.
Give hypocrisy a break, too!.
What hypocrisy???
Do post it. Back up that claim, you are already behind, with the last false
claims you made.
You didn't answer.
Jan
Jan>"Jan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> >From: Peter Bowditch [email protected]
>> >Date: 7/24/2003 12:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: <[email protected]>
>>
>> >Subject: Re: Rath's battle for justice!
>> >From: Peter Bowditch [email protected]
>> >Date: 7/24/2003 12:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: <[email protected]>
>> >
>> >[email protected] (Jan) wrote:
>> >
>> >>>Subject: Re: Rath's battle for justice!
>> >>>From: Peter Bowditch [email protected]
>> >>>Date: 7/23/2003 8:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >>>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>> >>>
>> >>>[email protected] (Jan) wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>>Subject: Re: Rath's battle for justice!
>> >>>>>From: Peter Bowditch [email protected]
>> >>>>>Date: 7/23/2003 5:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >>>>>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>[email protected] (Jan) wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>Subject: Re: Rath's battle for justice!
>> >>>>>>>From: Peter Bowditch [email protected]
>> >>>>>>>Date: 7/23/2003 4:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >>>>>>>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>I'm talking drug companies and they are proven to be criminals.
>> >>>>>>>>http://www.iahf.com/codex/20010303.html
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>Every time someone refers me to John Hammell's crazy site,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>Peter calls it crazy because the truth is too much to bear, and the
>EGO
>> >is
>> >>>>>>badly bruisd.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>No, I call it crazy because it is crazy. There is no truth there to
>> >>>>>bear, and it causes bruising to my diaphragm from laughing.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Care to prove that?
>> >>>
>> >>>I'm sorry, but the medical records relating to the repair of my
>> >>>herniated diaphragm are, as they say, NOYB.
>> >>
>> >>Hardy har har.
>> >>
>> >>>No, I call it crazy because it is crazy. There is no truth there to
>> >>>>>bear,
>> >>
>> >>Care to prove that?
>> >>
>> >>>Or is this just another false accusation?
>> >>
>> >>Well?
>> >>
>> >>>>That's nother reason why he can't answer why Peter Moran can't see any
>> >>>fraud,
>> >>>>>>dishonesty or coverups, even though the FDA stated:
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >>>I do not speak for Dr Moran.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Nobody asked you to speak for him, however I am sure you can see he is
>> >>>lying.
>> >>>>You are letting it slide because that is how members of organized
>medicine
>> >>>>cover for each other.
>> >>
>> >>>Neither Dr Moran nor I am a member of Organised Medicine. He is
>> >>>retired, I never was one. I am a member of the Ryde-Eastwood Rugby
>> >>>Leagues Club, and I believe Dr Moran plays golf. (I have heard that
>> >>>there is a plan to replace the golf lessons currently included in the
>> >>in the
>> >>>medical training at Sydney University with some lectures on nutrition,
>> >>>but the AMA is resisting this. Apparently they own some golf courses
>> >>>and are the Australian franchisees for Ping.)
>> >>
>> >>Uh huh, whixh has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he lied
>and
>> >you
>> >>are not man enough to sepak up against the lie.
>> >
>> >I have seen no evidence that he lied. If I remember correctly, he
>> >commented that medicine was not perfect.
>>
>> You have sen the evidence plenty of times.
>>
>>
>> http://www.msnbc.com/news/809196.asp
>>
>> Peter Moran wrote:
>>
>> All medical advances have entailed risk, ever since the first caveman
>said"I
>> wonder what this berry does?".
>>
>> Using retroviruses to try and correct lethal and potentially lethal gene
>> defects is a very legitimate and logic alavenue of medical research.
>>
>>
>> ****So this is nothing to do with "conspiracies", "coverups" . ***
>>
>> It is a matter of the quality of informed consent that was applied. It
>would
>> be unusual these days for such issues to not be addressed carefully by the
>> researchers and the ethics committees to which all clinical trials are
>> submitted thesedays.
>>
>> ***We cannot know how culpable the doctors are from this rather emotive
>news
>> item.***
>>
>> Peter Moran
>> =========================
>> Years earlier, a scientist just a few miles away from the Gelsinger's home
>in
>> Tucson had raised serious questions about whether the experiment was safe.
>>
>> Documents
>>
>> . Feb. 8, 2002: FDA letter, attempt to ban Dr. Wilson from other
>> experiments.
>> . March 3, 2000: FDA Warning Letter, original findings about the gene
>> therapy experiment.
>>
>> (No coverups there,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
>>
>> The trouble is, Paul Gelsinger says, Dr. Wilson's team had never told him
>> that anyone had ever raised questions about safety
>>
>> (That's fine and dandy according to organized medicine member, Peter
>Moran.)
>>
>> ADVERSE REACTIONS WERE NOT REPORTED
>> And that was just the beginning. Federal investigators, pouring
>through
>> Penn's records, announced at the conference that they had made a series of
>> startling discoveries, raising questions about whether the doctors had
>covered
>> up problems and broken basic test rules.
>>
>> In fact, just a few months before Jesse had signed up for the experiment,
>> several monkeys given viruses similar to Jesse's got sick. And two of them
>> died.
>>
>> (No coverup there)
>>
>> The rules for the experiment said: Even if volunteers didn't get visibly
>ill,
>> if tests showed that any of them had a significant reaction called "grade
>> 3," the experiment was supposed to be "halted" immediately.
>> Records show there were "grade 3" reactions in more than one
>> patient. The first time, doctors stopped, called the government and got
>> permission to continue, saying an unusual condition with the patient might
>have
>> been the cause.
>> The second time, they stopped, called and got permission again,
>citing
>> another unusual condition.
>> But when it happened a third time, they didn't stop, didn't call.
>> Then, a fourth time. They didn't stop or call then either
>>
>> (No coverups there).
>>
>> For their own safety, volunteers weren't supposed to have a blood
>> ammonia level higher than 50. But people were coming in with higher levels
>and
>> without proper approval. The limit was raised to 70.
>> When Jesse signed up over the summer, he was within the limits, but
>> records show that when Penn doctors tested him, just days before the
>> experiment, his reading was 114 - more than double the original safety
>limit.
>>
>> (That's way cool huh Peter???)
>>
>> HIGH FINANCIAL STAKES
>> With so many red flags from the monkey deaths to the reactions in
>other
>> volunteers, even to Jesse's own ammonia levels, Why had Dr. Wilson's team
>> allowed the experiment to continue?
>>
>> (Wonder if Peter can answer this question?)
>>
>> At the University of Pennsylvania, the conflict committee approved
>Dr.
>> Wilson's arrangement with Genovo.
>> In fact, the university itself owned a piece of his company and
>stood to
>> profit, too.
>>
>> (Hmmmmmmmmm).
>>
>> In a statement, the university acknowledged that some information
>> "should have been shared with the FDA sooner."
>>
>> (Just a minor little slip,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
>>
>> There was no information given to Jesse or his family about the monkey
>deaths.
>> There was no information given to Jesse or his family about toxic results
>in
>> prior patients. There was no information that would allow Jesse and his
>family
>> to make any kind of informed decision."
>>
>> (Peter STILL can't see any coverup!!!! NO dishonesty!)
>>
>> CONFIDENTIAL REPORTS
>>
>> He told congress that other private companies in the race for cures
>had
>> also been doing gene therapy experiments and had also gotten adverse
>reactions.
>> But instead of sharing the information, government rules allowed them to
>stamp
>> those reactions "confidential," classifying them as trade secrets to
>> protect their research investments.
>> So, while the government knew about them, other researchers like
>Dr.
>> Wilson and volunteers like Jesse Gelsinger were never allowed to see them.
>>
>> (TRust the government!!!)
>>
>> "I was outraged," says Paul. "I had a right to know. Jesse had a right to
>> know.
>>
>> (Oh my,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,emotions).
>>
>> In February, the Food and Drug Administration said that because Dr. Wilson
>> filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and deliberately
>> violated regulations
>>
>> REPEAT FOR THE HARD HEADED!!!
>>
>> Dr. Wilson filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and
>> deliberately violated regulations
>>
>> (No coverups,,,,,,,,,,no fraud,,,,,,,,,,no deliberate
>violations,,,,,,,,,,,,)
>>
>> This week marks the third anniversary of Jesse Gelsinger's death.
>At
>> the University of Pennsylvania, Dr. Wilson
>>
>> ****is still on the faculty****
>>
>> (Soooooooooo in organized medicine,,,,,,,,,,,)
>>
>> ****Filing *false and misleading reports* is A OK,,,,,,,,,,,,****
>>
>> ****REPEATED and DELIBERATE violations,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is A OK.***
>>
>> but no longer in charge of its gene therapy program. And, in Congress,
>> lawmakers are still debating legislation to provide more protection for
>medical
>> volunteers.
>>
>> ******in the end, whether Jesse was betrayed by the doctors he and his
>family
>> thought they could trust.*********
>>
>> ==========================
>>
>> > have seen no evidence that he lied.
>>
>> >He said he saw a mistake.
>>
>> No, he did not.
>>
>> > He said that medicine is not perfect.
>>
>> No, he did not.
>>
>> He said:
>>
>> ****So this is nothing to do with "conspiracies", "coverups" . ***
>>
>> ***We cannot know how culpable the doctors are from this rather emotive
>news
>> item.***
>>
>> There are two lies.
>>
>> *In February, the Food and Drug Administration said that because Dr.
>Wilson
>> filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and deliberately
>> violated regulations *
>>
>> ========================
>>
>> There are several coverups, several lies, fraud committed, dishonesty and
>lies
>> all over the place.
>>
>> Everyone can see them, those who say they can't are telling additional
>lies.
>>
>> And Dr Wilson remains on staff.
>>
>> It is no wonder Dr Rath or any alterantive person has to battle for
>justice.
>>
>> Jan
>Peter Moran
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: "Peter Moran" [email protected]
>Date: 7/24/2003 7:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>Jan, grow up, and give it a rest!
I was grown up a long time ago.
You need to correct your LIES, it is YOUR problem, not mine.
> I have allowed the possibility that
>there were informed consent violations in this case.
That was all discussed. The FACTS are the family was told nothing.
>I refuse to to be drawn into any further argument on the basis of a news
>report, on a subject on which neither of us have first hand knowledge.
The first hand knowledge came straight out of the father and mother's mouth.
They were on the show LIVE!!!
> I also find this so pathetic when you have been caught out in extravagant
>misrepresentations so frequently.
I have been caught in nothing, I have quoted the exact words of the entire
boardcast.
>I am glad that medical pioneers are trying to cure genetic disorders, and
>retroviruses are the most promising avenue. It is likely to be risky
>research. That does not excuse doctors from concealing risks from
>patients.
Well THANK YOU!!
WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT A LONG TIME AGO?!?!
>> I see no one fighting this blatant fraud.
>Ha!
Ha????????
That's an answer.
Ha??????
>You and your ilk
Whoops.
>refuse to even acknowledge that seriously ill
>patients are being routinely scammed within AM, even though you must know
>it.
You should know by now, I condone no wrong, and this is just an excuse because
you have been lying all this time.
Give hypocrisy a break, too!.
What hypocrisy???
Do post it. Back up that claim, you are already behind, with the last false
claims you made.
You didn't answer.
Jan
Jan>"Jan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> >From: Peter Bowditch [email protected]
>> >Date: 7/24/2003 12:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: <[email protected]>
>>
>> >Subject: Re: Rath's battle for justice!
>> >From: Peter Bowditch [email protected]
>> >Date: 7/24/2003 12:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: <[email protected]>
>> >
>> >[email protected] (Jan) wrote:
>> >
>> >>>Subject: Re: Rath's battle for justice!
>> >>>From: Peter Bowditch [email protected]
>> >>>Date: 7/23/2003 8:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >>>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>> >>>
>> >>>[email protected] (Jan) wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>>Subject: Re: Rath's battle for justice!
>> >>>>>From: Peter Bowditch [email protected]
>> >>>>>Date: 7/23/2003 5:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >>>>>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>[email protected] (Jan) wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>Subject: Re: Rath's battle for justice!
>> >>>>>>>From: Peter Bowditch [email protected]
>> >>>>>>>Date: 7/23/2003 4:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >>>>>>>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>I'm talking drug companies and they are proven to be criminals.
>> >>>>>>>>http://www.iahf.com/codex/20010303.html
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>Every time someone refers me to John Hammell's crazy site,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>Peter calls it crazy because the truth is too much to bear, and the
>EGO
>> >is
>> >>>>>>badly bruisd.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>No, I call it crazy because it is crazy. There is no truth there to
>> >>>>>bear, and it causes bruising to my diaphragm from laughing.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Care to prove that?
>> >>>
>> >>>I'm sorry, but the medical records relating to the repair of my
>> >>>herniated diaphragm are, as they say, NOYB.
>> >>
>> >>Hardy har har.
>> >>
>> >>>No, I call it crazy because it is crazy. There is no truth there to
>> >>>>>bear,
>> >>
>> >>Care to prove that?
>> >>
>> >>>Or is this just another false accusation?
>> >>
>> >>Well?
>> >>
>> >>>>That's nother reason why he can't answer why Peter Moran can't see any
>> >>>fraud,
>> >>>>>>dishonesty or coverups, even though the FDA stated:
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >>>I do not speak for Dr Moran.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Nobody asked you to speak for him, however I am sure you can see he is
>> >>>lying.
>> >>>>You are letting it slide because that is how members of organized
>medicine
>> >>>>cover for each other.
>> >>
>> >>>Neither Dr Moran nor I am a member of Organised Medicine. He is
>> >>>retired, I never was one. I am a member of the Ryde-Eastwood Rugby
>> >>>Leagues Club, and I believe Dr Moran plays golf. (I have heard that
>> >>>there is a plan to replace the golf lessons currently included in the
>> >>in the
>> >>>medical training at Sydney University with some lectures on nutrition,
>> >>>but the AMA is resisting this. Apparently they own some golf courses
>> >>>and are the Australian franchisees for Ping.)
>> >>
>> >>Uh huh, whixh has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he lied
>and
>> >you
>> >>are not man enough to sepak up against the lie.
>> >
>> >I have seen no evidence that he lied. If I remember correctly, he
>> >commented that medicine was not perfect.
>>
>> You have sen the evidence plenty of times.
>>
>>
>> http://www.msnbc.com/news/809196.asp
>>
>> Peter Moran wrote:
>>
>> All medical advances have entailed risk, ever since the first caveman
>said"I
>> wonder what this berry does?".
>>
>> Using retroviruses to try and correct lethal and potentially lethal gene
>> defects is a very legitimate and logic alavenue of medical research.
>>
>>
>> ****So this is nothing to do with "conspiracies", "coverups" . ***
>>
>> It is a matter of the quality of informed consent that was applied. It
>would
>> be unusual these days for such issues to not be addressed carefully by the
>> researchers and the ethics committees to which all clinical trials are
>> submitted thesedays.
>>
>> ***We cannot know how culpable the doctors are from this rather emotive
>news
>> item.***
>>
>> Peter Moran
>> =========================
>> Years earlier, a scientist just a few miles away from the Gelsinger's home
>in
>> Tucson had raised serious questions about whether the experiment was safe.
>>
>> Documents
>>
>> . Feb. 8, 2002: FDA letter, attempt to ban Dr. Wilson from other
>> experiments.
>> . March 3, 2000: FDA Warning Letter, original findings about the gene
>> therapy experiment.
>>
>> (No coverups there,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
>>
>> The trouble is, Paul Gelsinger says, Dr. Wilson's team had never told him
>> that anyone had ever raised questions about safety
>>
>> (That's fine and dandy according to organized medicine member, Peter
>Moran.)
>>
>> ADVERSE REACTIONS WERE NOT REPORTED
>> And that was just the beginning. Federal investigators, pouring
>through
>> Penn's records, announced at the conference that they had made a series of
>> startling discoveries, raising questions about whether the doctors had
>covered
>> up problems and broken basic test rules.
>>
>> In fact, just a few months before Jesse had signed up for the experiment,
>> several monkeys given viruses similar to Jesse's got sick. And two of them
>> died.
>>
>> (No coverup there)
>>
>> The rules for the experiment said: Even if volunteers didn't get visibly
>ill,
>> if tests showed that any of them had a significant reaction called "grade
>> 3," the experiment was supposed to be "halted" immediately.
>> Records show there were "grade 3" reactions in more than one
>> patient. The first time, doctors stopped, called the government and got
>> permission to continue, saying an unusual condition with the patient might
>have
>> been the cause.
>> The second time, they stopped, called and got permission again,
>citing
>> another unusual condition.
>> But when it happened a third time, they didn't stop, didn't call.
>> Then, a fourth time. They didn't stop or call then either
>>
>> (No coverups there).
>>
>> For their own safety, volunteers weren't supposed to have a blood
>> ammonia level higher than 50. But people were coming in with higher levels
>and
>> without proper approval. The limit was raised to 70.
>> When Jesse signed up over the summer, he was within the limits, but
>> records show that when Penn doctors tested him, just days before the
>> experiment, his reading was 114 - more than double the original safety
>limit.
>>
>> (That's way cool huh Peter???)
>>
>> HIGH FINANCIAL STAKES
>> With so many red flags from the monkey deaths to the reactions in
>other
>> volunteers, even to Jesse's own ammonia levels, Why had Dr. Wilson's team
>> allowed the experiment to continue?
>>
>> (Wonder if Peter can answer this question?)
>>
>> At the University of Pennsylvania, the conflict committee approved
>Dr.
>> Wilson's arrangement with Genovo.
>> In fact, the university itself owned a piece of his company and
>stood to
>> profit, too.
>>
>> (Hmmmmmmmmm).
>>
>> In a statement, the university acknowledged that some information
>> "should have been shared with the FDA sooner."
>>
>> (Just a minor little slip,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
>>
>> There was no information given to Jesse or his family about the monkey
>deaths.
>> There was no information given to Jesse or his family about toxic results
>in
>> prior patients. There was no information that would allow Jesse and his
>family
>> to make any kind of informed decision."
>>
>> (Peter STILL can't see any coverup!!!! NO dishonesty!)
>>
>> CONFIDENTIAL REPORTS
>>
>> He told congress that other private companies in the race for cures
>had
>> also been doing gene therapy experiments and had also gotten adverse
>reactions.
>> But instead of sharing the information, government rules allowed them to
>stamp
>> those reactions "confidential," classifying them as trade secrets to
>> protect their research investments.
>> So, while the government knew about them, other researchers like
>Dr.
>> Wilson and volunteers like Jesse Gelsinger were never allowed to see them.
>>
>> (TRust the government!!!)
>>
>> "I was outraged," says Paul. "I had a right to know. Jesse had a right to
>> know.
>>
>> (Oh my,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,emotions).
>>
>> In February, the Food and Drug Administration said that because Dr. Wilson
>> filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and deliberately
>> violated regulations
>>
>> REPEAT FOR THE HARD HEADED!!!
>>
>> Dr. Wilson filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and
>> deliberately violated regulations
>>
>> (No coverups,,,,,,,,,,no fraud,,,,,,,,,,no deliberate
>violations,,,,,,,,,,,,)
>>
>> This week marks the third anniversary of Jesse Gelsinger's death.
>At
>> the University of Pennsylvania, Dr. Wilson
>>
>> ****is still on the faculty****
>>
>> (Soooooooooo in organized medicine,,,,,,,,,,,)
>>
>> ****Filing *false and misleading reports* is A OK,,,,,,,,,,,,****
>>
>> ****REPEATED and DELIBERATE violations,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is A OK.***
>>
>> but no longer in charge of its gene therapy program. And, in Congress,
>> lawmakers are still debating legislation to provide more protection for
>medical
>> volunteers.
>>
>> ******in the end, whether Jesse was betrayed by the doctors he and his
>family
>> thought they could trust.*********
>>
>> ==========================
>>
>> > have seen no evidence that he lied.
>>
>> >He said he saw a mistake.
>>
>> No, he did not.
>>
>> > He said that medicine is not perfect.
>>
>> No, he did not.
>>
>> He said:
>>
>> ****So this is nothing to do with "conspiracies", "coverups" . ***
>>
>> ***We cannot know how culpable the doctors are from this rather emotive
>news
>> item.***
>>
>> There are two lies.
>>
>> *In February, the Food and Drug Administration said that because Dr.
>Wilson
>> filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and deliberately
>> violated regulations *
>>
>> ========================
>>
>> There are several coverups, several lies, fraud committed, dishonesty and
>lies
>> all over the place.
>>
>> Everyone can see them, those who say they can't are telling additional
>lies.
>>
>> And Dr Wilson remains on staff.
>>
>> It is no wonder Dr Rath or any alterantive person has to battle for
>justice.
>>
>> Jan
>Peter Moran
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>