Light recommendations?

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:02:08 -0400, jmk <[email protected]> wrote:

>I was thinking about buying a new headlight for my bike. I have one that the battery goes in the
>bottle cage but it's just too hot in NC right now to think seriously about giving up a water bottle
>for a battery.
What a pity. I made my light, its 50 watts of halogen downlight sla battery jammed in bottle
cage. Bright mofo
> I was thinking of getting a Vistalight Nightstick Code 5. Does anyone have thoughts on this light?
> I'd love to hear any comments pro or con.
>
>Also, I see that Sierra Trading Post has it for $50. I've ordered from them before with good
>luck. I also see that Price Point has it for $40. Have any of you ordered from pricepoint.com
>before? Thanks!
>
>jmk

5W is not enough.

I agree with you about the water bottle cage being needed for an actual bottle, but isn't there a
way you could mount another bottle cage elsewhere? See http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss.htm for a
bunch of methods. This would be the least expensive option. It's hard to find the cage mounting
hardware in the U.S., but you can usually mail order it; I've included sources on the web site.
Forget about buying any of these items at a bike shop in the U.S., it's mail order only.

It's kind of hard to find adequate lights that don't mount the batteries in the water bottle cage
(what are these companies thinking?!), but they do exist.

Check out: "http://www.cygolite.com/light/main/1products.htm" they offer several frame
mount options.

"http://store.airbomb.com/site/intro445c.html?PageID=37&SKU=LT7814" $53 and it's a better option
than the Vistalight at $50. Gel Cel.

For $80 you get the 16W headlamp "http://www.bikepartsusa.com/product_info.phtml?p=01-170175&r=7"

Just be certain that you are ordering a frame mount system, not a waterbottle mount system, as
Cygolite has both.

You can also order their headlight that runs on D cells
"http://www.bicyclerevolution.com/cygmetbiclig.html" then buy six 7500mAH NiMH D cell batteries for
about $36, "http://store.yahoo.com/sterlingtek/nimdcelbat2d.html"

7.2V*7.5AH=54WH, derate by 30% to so at full 12.6W you will be able to go for 3 hours. You could
even consider going to AA high capacity NiMH batteries (2000mAH) if you have a shorter commute
(these would run for about 45 minutes at full power, 90 minutes at half power).

This is probably the least expensive option for an NiMH system, though there is nothing wrong with a
Gelcel system other than the weight. I used to use a lot of Gelcel's because they were more
weight/power efficient than the NiCads of the time, but now the high capacity NiMH batteries have
changed all that, though they are still expensive.

You can also see details about building your own system at nordicgroup.us/s78 . I used to
manufacture systems with 14W-55W headlamps. The Malibu LV504 and LV505 are ideal for bicycle lights,
http://www.intermatic.com/?action=subcat&sid=17 Put a 12V gel cel battery in a frame bag and you're
done (at least for the headlight).

Hope all this helps.

jmk <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I was thinking about buying a new headlight for my bike. I have one that the battery goes in the
> bottle cage but it's just too hot in NC right now to think seriously about giving up a water
> bottle for a battery. I was thinking of getting a Vistalight Nightstick Code 5. Does anyone have
> thoughts on this light? I'd love to hear any comments pro or con.
>
> Also, I see that Sierra Trading Post has it for $50. I've ordered from them before with good
> luck. I also see that Price Point has it for $40. Have any of you ordered from pricepoint.com
> before? Thanks!
>
> jmk

Vistalight Lightsticks have been discontinued. Getting parts is fun
but some can be made and others can be gotten from Radio Schack. I
made a replacement battery pack and found extra power cables at RS.

[email protected] (Steven Scharf) wrote in message

>... isn't there a way you could mount another bottle cage elsewhere? See
>http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss.htm for a bunch of methods. This would be the least expensive
>option. It's hard to find the cage mounting hardware in the U.S., but you can usually mail order
>it; I've included sources on the web site. Forget about buying any of these items at a bike shop in
>the U.S.,

Nice, informative site. Thanks. I found the cheapo clamps like #6 on your site for "free" at my
local LBS.
(i.e. I wanted to buy two cages if he had some way I could mount them on my ancient tandem) This is
an old Schwinn shop that the new owner bought about 3 years ago, and there is a variety of old
inventory there. There may be a lot of local shops that still have these old-style mounts.

One trick suggested on the touring list is to mount a third water bottle cage below the downtube
(i.e. on the outside of the triangle). Of course, it gets dirty down there and can't be accessed
while on the move, but you can only drink out of one water bottle at a time, anyway.

"Robert Dole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Steven Scharf) wrote in message

> One trick suggested on the touring list is to mount a third water bottle cage below the downtube
> (i.e. on the outside of the triangle). Of course, it gets dirty down there and can't be accessed
> while on the move, but you can only drink out of one water bottle at a time, anyway.

My touring bike has braze-ons down there. You're right, it is a good place, especially for batteries
or compressed air for a horn, or for a water bottle tool set, or any of the other water bottle size
accessories.

On 8/19/2003 2:50 PM, Steven Scharf wrote:
> 5W is not enough.

What wattage would you recommend? 10? 15? More?

> "http://store.airbomb.com/site/intro445c.html?PageID=37&SKU=LT7814" $53 and it's a better option
> than the Vistalight at $50. Gel Cel.

Thanks for all of the recommendations!

"jmk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> On 8/19/2003 2:50 PM, Steven Scharf wrote:
> > 5W is not enough.
>
> What wattage would you recommend? 10? 15? More?
>
> > "http://store.airbomb.com/site/intro445c.html?PageID=37&SKU=LT7814" $53 and it's a better option
> > than the Vistalight at $50. Gel Cel.
>
> Thanks for all of the recommendations!

I am personally not comfortable with less than 10W Halogen. This is city/suburb riding. Off-roading
(no ambient light) requires less, I think, unless you're doing real mtb-ing, maybe.

--
Robin Hubert <[email protected]

"Arpit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> What a pity. I made my light, its 50 watts of halogen downlight sla battery jammed in bottle
> cage. Bright mofo

I'd be interested in instructions/cost for this. Thanks

"Matthew" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Arpit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > What a pity. I made my light, its 50 watts of halogen downlight sla battery jammed in bottle
> > cage. Bright mofo
>
> I'd be interested in instructions/cost for this. Thanks

Well you can look at a high wattage system that I used to manufacture at http://nordicgroup.com/s78
. This was back in the 1980's, things have changed, especially with the drastically cheaper prices
of NiMH batteries. at the time, even Nightsun didn't have any really high wattage systems available.

I sold quite a few with 55W driving lights. Personally I think that this was a bit overdoing it.

If I was going to do it these days I'd use a 14W or 25W halogen sealed beam ($12) and twelve 2000
mAH AA NiMH cells ($16). Even with a 25W headlamp this would run for almost an hour (and that's
including derating the battery capacity to 80% of rated capacity). If I needed more I'd use twelve
7500mA D NiMH, but that's $72 worth of batteries, or a 7AH 12V lead acid that at 84WH would give me
about the same actual capacity as the 54W hours from the 12 NiMH D cells, and would cost $22.

Personally I don't care for water bottle cage batteries, I'd use a frame bag to hold the battery.

The SLA batteries were good at the time, less trouble than NiCads with their low internal resistance
and memory effect, (page 54 of "http://www.antonbauer.com/downloads/2002Handbook.pdf"). But these
days the NiMH batteries are quite economical if you only need a system that'll run for 1-2 hours
between charging.

What I recommend these days is that people buy a dual headlamp system (i.e 20W + 5W) with an SLA
battery, then replace the SLA battery with NiMH. For $50 you can buy something that works but the
SLA batteries are just too inefficient, i.e. "http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&SKU=LT1025"

jmk <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I was thinking about buying a new headlight for my bike. jmk

Me too!

And I have been looking at lights similar to the ones have been suggested to you.

What I would really like is a combo light with a bright incandescent bulb, and back up low power
(but still bright!) LED light, much like the new headlights DUO LED from petzl. These give long
battery life, and even if the battery is almost dead the led's are still bright enough for "be seen"
lighting, even if not that great for seeing.

Fragg

My old lights came with a canvas bag that held the batteries. It mounted under the top tube, just
behind the headset. I think there were two velcro straps that went over the top tube and one that
went under the down tube, to keep the bag from sliding back. Worked great, and you could probably
make one pretty easily.

James

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Steven Scharf) writes:

> 5W is not enough.

I do very well by my old Union 3W generator/headlight setup, supplemented occasionally w/ my old
Cateye HL-500 for standlight purposes.

For seeing, it's not the watts; it's the lumens/sq. metre. For being seen under normal weather
conditions, anything legal will do. Thick fog is another story, but I just don't ride in it.

But tonight I had a great ride over some fairly busted-up streets without any difficulty wrt to
seeing hazards, and there /were/ some, including a toddler darting across the street from a parked
car. I got to stop, trade smiles with his parents, and assure them I wouldn't run them over as if I
was impatiently driving a car.

And it didn't even cost a penny from the grid, and I didn't worry about batteries failing. Going
where I was going was mostly downhill, so I was faster and my headlight was therefore brighter.
Coming back was uphill and slower, so brightness didn't matter as much for seeing the road.

It's not the watts; it's the lumens, and how concentrated they are, and how they're aimed.

cheers, Tom

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In article <[email protected]>, jmk <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
> On 8/19/2003 2:50 PM, Steven Scharf wrote:
>> 5W is not enough.
>
> What wattage would you recommend? 10? 15? More?

I really wish ppl would stop talking about the efficacy of lights in terms of wattage.

One can waste all kinds of watts into illuminating an inefficient light source. Hell, one can waste

cheers, Tom

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[email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jmk <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >
> > On 8/19/2003 2:50 PM, Steven Scharf wrote:
> >> 5W is not enough.
> >
> > What wattage would you recommend? 10? 15? More?
>
> I really wish ppl would stop talking about the efficacy of lights in terms of wattage.
>
> One can waste all kinds of watts into illuminating an inefficient light source. Hell, one
> can waste

shucking and f****** are perfectly good uses for watts!

-Luigi

[email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Steven
> Scharf) writes:
>
> > 5W is not enough.
>
> I do very well by my old Union 3W generator/headlight setup, supplemented occasionally w/ my old
> Cateye HL-500 for standlight purposes.
>
> For seeing, it's not the watts; it's the lumens/sq. metre....
>
> It's not the watts; it's the lumens, and how concentrated they are, and how they're aimed.

Of course, I agree completely.

There was mention of building your own (battery-powered) system. This can save a bundle over paying
retail, but the designs are almost always based on a crudely focused lamp from a hardware store. You
need lots of watts, therefore lots of battery, to see well.

Here's an alternative to consider, if you're watt-addicted: Get a decent quality, inexpensive bike
headlight - say, one powered by flashlight batteries or by a generator - and power it from a
rechargeable battery. You may find (as a friend of mine did) that merely using a 3 watt bulb with a
6 volt battery in place of a generator will satisfy you perfectly. (You'll have full brightness even
when stopped, for instance.)

If you think there's no way 3 watts will work (despite all the evidence to the contrary) try
installing, say, a 6 watt or 10 watt halogen bulb in a well-focused bike headlight. (Reflectalite is
one source for bulbs.) I had a 10 watt bulb in an old generator headlight for a while, powered by a
rechargeable battery. It was far better at illuminating the road than a 15 or 20 watt hardware store
MR-11 bulb.

One problem you may find is that higher wattage bulbs may soften or melt the plastic reflectors in
some low-wattage lights. I had that happen once, and had to rig up some thermal insulation between
the bulb and the reflector. But some older lamps have metal reflectors, and some newer ones have
heat resistant plastic.

Decent optics can allow much lower wattage bulbs. This can save you a lot in battery cost and
weight, and can give you tremendous bonuses in run time.

- Frank Krygowski

"Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, jmk <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >
> > On 8/19/2003 2:50 PM, Steven Scharf wrote:
> >> 5W is not enough.
> >
> > What wattage would you recommend? 10? 15? More?
>
> I really wish ppl would stop talking about the efficacy of lights in terms of wattage.

True, since HID lights put out a lot more lumens per watt than conventional bulbs.

Still, most bicycle lighting is quartz-halogen, most commercial systems use MR11 lamps in spot or
flood configurations, so there is a common frame of reference. I understand the attraction of the
MR11 bulbs, they are small and very cheap, but the small size means a small reflector, which is the
opposite of what you want when you're constrained by the amount of power you can carry or generate.

BTW, for 10W and 20W 12 volt MR11, covered amp bulbs (38 degree beam), check out Ikea. They sell the
lamps for $2 each. Night-Sun charges $20 for a replacement 12 volt 20W, MR11 flood lamp.

I just put a dual 14W system on my commuter bike, but I used sealed beams.

http://www.foxelectricsupply.com/content/products/ProductDetail.asp?qsCatID= 26645&qsProductNo=LV504

Anyway, for quartz halogen, don't go below 5W for your "being seen lamp" and 20W for your seeing
lamp. Dual 10W systems are fine, 5W+20W is fine too.

There are a lot of toy-like headlight and tail lights out there that will give people a false sense
of security. A 2.4W headlight is not going to cut it, unless perhaps it is an HID 2.4W headlight!
The whole 2.4W headlight/0.6W taillight thing came about because of German law which required 3W.

Above all, get a good tail lamp, a Xenon strobe is incredibly bright, with average power of
less than 2W.

"Steven M. Scharf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> There are a lot of toy-like headlight and tail lights out there that will give people a false
> sense of security. A 2.4W headlight is not going to cut it, unless perhaps it is an HID 2.4W
> headlight!

We know that's your heartfelt opinion, Steven. Obviously, many others have a different opinion.

Do you have any data that proves the de facto world standard does not "cut it?" See, those of us who
have ridden 25 years with that equipment seem to think it's "cutting it" just fine!

I suppose my decades of experience may have somehow confused me. Please, show us the numbers!
Otherwise, I'll be sorely tempted to keep using what's worked since 1977, as will thousands of audax
riders and millions of other cyclists!

- Frank Krygowski

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Frank Krygowski) writes:

...

> If you think there's no way 3 watts will work (despite all the evidence to the contrary) try
> installing, say, a 6 watt or 10 watt halogen bulb in a well-focused bike headlight. (Reflectalite
> is one source for bulbs.) I had a 10 watt bulb in an old generator headlight for a while, powered
> by a rechargeable battery. It was far better at illuminating the road than a 15 or 20 watt
> hardware store MR-11 bulb.
>
> One problem you may find is that higher wattage bulbs may soften or melt the plastic reflectors in
> some low-wattage lights. I had that happen once, and had to rig up some thermal insulation between
> the bulb and the reflector. But some older lamps have metal reflectors, and some newer ones have
> heat resistant plastic.
>
> Decent optics can allow much lower wattage bulbs. This can save you a lot in battery cost and
> weight, and can give you tremendous bonuses in run time.

Thanx for the info, Frank. You've given me much food for thought.

For a while now I've had a notion to experiment with these newfangled "supercapacitors" in
generator-fed PS/regulators. I find them really intriguing. Time & money constraints are
currently holding me back (as per usual), but I think a regulator built around one of these
supercapacitors just might be the cat's pajamas. I came across a web site where somebody did just
that, but I think where he left off, someone else can pick up the ball and run with it. I
submitted a "feeler" post about it in r.b.t some time ago, and nobody really shot the idea down
in flames, so I think there might be some possibilities with it. The payoffs are: no reliance on
rechargable batteries, and possibly reduced weight, since supercaps are surprisingly compact. A
permanent, self-contained module. The trades-off include charge-time (having to charge it up with
the generator on in the daytime for awhile), and having to design the circuitry from scratch, and
experiment with it. I don't yet know how much leakage these things are prone to, for example. And
I might have to review a bunch of long- orgotten electronics academic lore, like
current-follows-voltage/ voltage-follows-current in re: capacitance & inductance, and all that
other stuff I can't remember anymore.

But it'll be a fun project. Maybe I'll get a chance, over the season we used to call "winter"
(before global warming reared its ugly head.)

Another interesting battery-free technology is these Baylis wind-up radios, which come with an
LED light.

cheers, Tom

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In article <[email protected]>, "Steven M. Scharf"
<[email protected]> writes:

>
> There are a lot of toy-like headlight and tail lights out there that will give people a false
> sense of security. A 2.4W headlight is not going to cut it, unless perhaps it is an HID 2.4W
> headlight!

Just for laffs, I bought one of those "toy" generator/headlight/taillight combos (from Canadian
Tire). The thing is surprisingly effective. 3W is 3W, after all.

I did forego the stock headlight, and instead mounted one of my U-100's. The weak link of the setup
is the mounting hardware -- some sort of tinplate-y, bendable bracket. I replaced it with some real
hardware purchased from the local community-based bike shop. And the generator housing is a durable
plastic, but that's all right. After all, it's not like a herd of buffaloes is going to stampede
over the durn thing. It has performed wonderfully through several Vancouver downpours. I did mount
the stock headlight on yet another bike, wired to a real Union generator. It works good, too. It has
a good lens, but the housing is cheap plastic.

All my generator setups use 2-conductor leads. It's much more dependable that way, than the
1-conductor thing with screws digging into paint.

Tonight I did another run with my generator/headlight setup, and it performed wonderfully, as usual.
I've got the U-100 headlight mounted on my left fork blade, as if it was a front-wheel "block"
generator setup, although the generator is really on the back wheel. It casts some light to the
sides, in a sort of sunset transom window effect -- long needles of illumination radiating in a
fan-like config. That serves to illuminate street signs, show where the dead squirrels are in the
road, and light up ppl on either sidewalk.

There's also a concentrated, fat, lonzenge-shaped spot in front, that readily shows what's in the
road ahead. With my li'l Cateye casting its spot slightly ahead & overlapping the headlight spot, I
can easily discern what I'm about to ride through. There's a bit of a knack to not over-riding the
spot, and peripherally seeing what's going on at the sides as well as up front, but it's not rocket
science. No more than keeping a straight line while shoulder-checking, anyways. One consideration is
using the spot to warn sidelong traffic at intersections that a cyclist is coming through. My setup
works very well for that, too -- especially when supplemented with the Cateye to lengthen the spot.
But it's very speed-dependent. Again, the trick is to not over-ride the spot.

Maybe those scattergun hi-wattage battery lights are good for ppl who don't have, and don't want to
acquire the skills to use real, optical, Fresnel-like headlights at night.

> The whole 2.4W headlight/0.6W taillight thing came about because of German law which required 3W.

There are, and have been for yonks, 6W units available, too. And generator output can be easily
tweeked by changing the size of the drivewheel. I like 'em as-is, because I've gotta deal with lots
of hills, and my ton o' bricks bike ain't exactly a kite. So the smallish, stock drivewheels still
give me lots of output when grunting it up the hump.

> Above all, get a good tail lamp, a Xenon strobe is incredibly bright, with average power of less
> than 2W.

I've got a real good blinkie (cost me all of $20, and has a good reflector built-in), plus my 0.6W
taillight that tells ppl behind me that I'm stopping when it fades out. Oh yeah -- generator lights
have that natural semaphore effect, too. Pretty good, eh?

cheers, Tom

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