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post #121 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredC
Of course it does, I was referring to origin for our American friends.
sorry, mea culpa.
post #122 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
I'd like to see your overweight 300lb slob play rugby.
Wouldn't last 2 minutes, i reckon.
Who said anything bringing FredC into this?
post #123 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper
Utter ridiculous…A human body is a human body no matter where it is born… Yes, rugby a little different game.. But we wear helmets which would crush your ribs and knock you unconscious. You may be my guest
Which illustrates how mind-numbingly stupid the game has become. Take away the armour and you have a faster game, more skill and less injury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper
to come out to the local high school here and play a little foot ball with out “body armor” as you call it..I’d give you about 2 minutes… Especially if pummeled by a 300+ pound slab of meat…
If I was gonna play against people with armour I would wear armour too, that's common sense. I still think it's a stupid idea to use armour because I believe that players put too much faith in it and consequently they are more likely to suffer from serious injuries.

As it happens I have actually played *Rugby* against a 250lb slab of American Football meat, he had a good 70lb advantage on me too. He was propping against me because a *real* prop would have broken the kid in the first scrum. Fair play to him, propping is a *really* difficult and dangerous part of the game, so I took a lot of the pressure off him and he didn't get hurt.

When it came to tackling (surely he had to be good at that, right ?) he sucked. He was too afraid to commit because he wasn't in armour, he did that pattercake thing that American Footballers do, and he got hurt every damn time. When he got tackled he tensed up (probably the lack or armour thing) and he got hurt every damn time, the kid was board-stiff when I ripped his legs out from underneath him.

I have no idea if Rugby players find the transition to American Football any easier. From my perspective I think I would find the specialisation and the heavy reliance on set-piece play frustrating. Rugby at it's best involves all 15 players kicking, passing, tackling and improvising. This year's Six Nations turned out a cracking France v Wales match, some *very* committed tackling going on there and some fantastic mix of direct running and skills too. I would be interested to know which match Limerickman would recommend, I'll bet it's the one where Ireland denied an English Grand Slam.
post #124 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredC
Surely Norman French.
Bah. The Normans were quite definitely not French. IIRC they were descended from a bunch of Vikings that took Normandy off the French. That is why there was a few hundred years of war between the French and the English after the Normans took England. They were trying to keep the turf they had plundered from the French in the first place.
post #125 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkboong
Which illustrates how mind-numbingly stupid the game has become. Take away the armour and you have a faster game, more skill and less injury.

If I was gonna play against people with armour I would wear armour too, that's common sense. I still think it's a stupid idea to use armour because I believe that players put too much faith in it and consequently they are more likely to suffer from serious injuries.

As it happens I have actually played *Rugby* against a 250lb slab of American Football meat, he had a good 70lb advantage on me too. He was propping against me because a *real* prop would have broken the kid in the first scrum. Fair play to him, propping is a *really* difficult and dangerous part of the game, so I took a lot of the pressure off him and he didn't get hurt.

When it came to tackling (surely he had to be good at that, right ?) he sucked. He was too afraid to commit because he wasn't in armour, he did that pattercake thing that American Footballers do, and he got hurt every damn time. When he got tackled he tensed up (probably the lack or armour thing) and he got hurt every damn time, the kid was board-stiff when I ripped his legs out from underneath him.

I have no idea if Rugby players find the transition to American Football any easier. From my perspective I think I would find the specialisation and the heavy reliance on set-piece play frustrating. Rugby at it's best involves all 15 players kicking, passing, tackling and improvising. This year's Six Nations turned out a cracking France v Wales match, some *very* committed tackling going on there and some fantastic mix of direct running and skills too. I would be interested to know which match Limerickman would recommend, I'll bet it's the one where Ireland denied an English Grand Slam.
I thought France V Wales was superb.
The best match of the Six Nations by a long shot.

The Ireland/England games were not genuine matches.
OK, I'll always take a win against England on a rugby pitch but an England side without Jonny, Hill, Greenwood, Vickery, Johnson ?
England and France are the teams to beat in Europe.

I know of no one who has defected from American Football to rugby.
The yanks do trawl for Union players though.
Naas Botha was the target of the Miami Dolphins in the late 1980's.
Ronan O Gara was recently linked with a move to NFL.

Union as a game is very very tough.
Those props are tough as teak.
Wouldn't fancy having a go at Pierre Dospital/Pascal Ondart/Graham Price/
Fran Cotton, not to mention a Sean Fitzpatrick or Os DuRandt in the modern era.
post #126 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
I thought France V Wales was superb.
The Ireland/England games were not genuine matches.
OK, I'll always take a win against England on a rugby pitch but an England side without Jonny, Hill, Greenwood, Vickery, Johnson ?
England and France are the teams to beat in Europe.
I dunno, I rate the Welsh very highly at the moment. That said I think the French have the best player of the moment in the shape of Yashvilli. He has a very complete game and an even-tempered head on his shoulders. I was a bit disappointed that Laharrague didn't get more time to settle in and didn't get more ball when he was on the pitch. I don't think he got enough credit really, he put in a lot of hard graft and set up some lovely moves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
Union as a game is very very tough.
Those props are tough as teak.
Wouldn't fancy having a go at Pierre Dospital/Pascal Ondart/Graham Price/
Fran Cotton, not to mention a Sean Fitzpatrick or Os DuRandt in the modern era.
Wasn't there some South African player who used to practice by tackling Wildebeest ? I'm thinking it might have been Joust van der Westhuizen (sp?), that guy was awesome. IIRC he played 80 minutes on smashed up knee ligaments. Having tried that for a mere 45 minutes I can tell you that it's no picnic, although it turned out that I had a cracked kneecap as well. :P
post #127 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkboong
I dunno, I rate the Welsh very highly at the moment. That said I think the French have the best player of the moment in the shape of Yashvilli. He has a very complete game and an even-tempered head on his shoulders. I was a bit disappointed that Laharrague didn't get more time to settle in and didn't get more ball when he was on the pitch. I don't think he got enough credit really, he put in a lot of hard graft and set up some lovely moves.



Wasn't there some South African player who used to practice by tackling Wildebeest ? I'm thinking it might have been Joust van der Westhuizen (sp?), that guy was awesome. IIRC he played 80 minutes on smashed up knee ligaments. Having tried that for a mere 45 minutes I can tell you that it's no picnic, although it turned out that I had a cracked kneecap as well. :P
Could well have been Joost.
Martin Johnson wrote that Andre Venter (SA) was physically the toughest man he met on a rugby pitch.

Wales are going really well. Jones/Peel partnership is superb. Shanklin is very impressive.
For me Martyn Williams is the real deal too.
His line work with Michael Owen got them back in to the match with the French.

I've always admired the French rugby team's style of play.
Can the likes of Blanco, Sella, Laquisque, Charvet, Gallion be matched ?
I don't think so.
The Welsh team of the 1970's are my all time favs.
Gerald Davies - JPR - JJ - Gareth.
post #128 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
So ?

Rugby is played without padding.

Of course if someone has a helmet and runs in to someone with no protection they will do damage.

I'd like to see your overweight 300lb slob play rugby.
Wouldn't last 2 minutes, i reckon.
Naas Botha, Ronan O'Gara and many other rugby players are wanted in the NFL. But only as kickers or punters. They don't have the speed to be competitive at other positions. I do not doubt the toughness of rugby players though.
post #129 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper
Who said anything bringing FredC into this?
Would you like some more Deca Juice for your boys? And use it correctly this time.
post #130 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkboong
Bah. The Normans were quite definitely not French. IIRC they were descended from a bunch of Vikings that took Normandy off the French. That is why there was a few hundred years of war between the French and the English after the Normans took England. They were trying to keep the turf they had plundered from the French in the first place.
Ecoute moi Msr Bong, I've wrote some jolly nice things about you, and all I get is Bah. BTW It's Pah in French, nice round P now. It's generally known as the Norman Invasion all over the world, and they all spoke French. Now don't start getting pedantic with me. Can you prove conclusively that you have a direct male line to Guillaume Gros Veneur and his crew certified by the House of Heraldry. I lived in Normandy and Bretagne for years, and I never came across a person with the name Bong.
post #131 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredC
Ecoute moi Msr Bong, I've wrote some jolly nice things about you, and all I get is Bah. BTW It's Pah in French, nice round P now. It's generally known as the Norman Invasion all over the world, and they all spoke French. Now don't start getting pedantic with me. Can you prove conclusively that you have a direct male line to Guillaume Gros Veneur and his crew certified by the House of Heraldry. I lived in Normandy and Bretagne for years, and I never came across a person with the name Bong.
My coat of arms was in the last heraldry book I picked up. Black shield, 3 silver "pics" (they look like pick-axes, there was some speculation that they represented Mjolnir). The name has mutated at least twice since the listing of the invasion party and the Domesday book. That might be enough help.
post #132 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder
Naas Botha, Ronan O'Gara and many other rugby players are wanted in the NFL. But only as kickers or punters. They don't have the speed to be competitive at other positions. I do not doubt the toughness of rugby players though.
How much speed do you need ? IIRC Lomu weighed ~250lbs and ran sub-12 100m and while that was exceptional when he was in his prime, there are plenty of big wingers out there who run at that pace. Hell there have even been Scrumhalves (17 year old Welsh kid) that ran sub-12s !

AFAIK Naas Botha was well past his prime by the time American Football latched onto him. When SA returned to international Rugby he was primarily on the pitch for his prodigious boot and his experience, not his fitness or speed.

On the other hand O'Gara is playing very well, and he will almost certainly run *any* American Football player into the ground over 80 minutes of hard graft.
Place kicking for an NFL team would be a horrible waste of his talent.

Gavin Hastings was another who place kicked in the NFL, he was well past his prime too. Just a nice earner to ease retirement (Rugby Union was strictly amateur back in those days).
post #133 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkboong
How much speed do you need ? IIRC Lomu weighed ~250lbs and ran sub-12 100m and while that was exceptional when he was in his prime, there are plenty of big wingers out there who run at that pace. Hell there have even been Scrumhalves (17 year old Welsh kid) that ran sub-12s !

AFAIK Naas Botha was well past his prime by the time American Football latched onto him. When SA returned to international Rugby he was primarily on the pitch for his prodigious boot and his experience, not his fitness or speed.

On the other hand O'Gara is playing very well, and he will almost certainly run *any* American Football player into the ground over 80 minutes of hard graft.
Place kicking for an NFL team would be a horrible waste of his talent.

Gavin Hastings was another who place kicked in the NFL, he was well past his prime too. Just a nice earner to ease retirement (Rugby Union was strictly amateur back in those days).
300 lb lineman in the NFL can beat those times. In the NFL a players speed in the 40yd dash is crucial. 4.1-4.3 is the standard in the NFL. If the rugby guys could compete for other positions then the NFL would have them other than kickers and punters.
post #134 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkboong
...
When it came to tackling (surely he had to be good at that, right ?) he sucked. He was too afraid to commit because he wasn't in armour, he did that pattercake thing that American Footballers do, and he got hurt every damn time. When he got tackled he tensed up (probably the lack or armour thing) and he got hurt every damn time, the kid was board-stiff when I ripped his legs out from underneath him.
...
This tackling argument means nothing! Completely different tackling styles involved in the two sports. They are both great sports I think, but obviously take different playing styles. I prefer rugby myself between the two of them, and played for some years in my college days. Are you saying the guy was weak or something because he wasn't used to rugby tackling? The exact same thing would happen in reverse if you put an accomplished rugby player in a football game for the first time. He wouldn't know how to tackle or how to get tackled and he'd get destroyed. It's technique and it's like mixing apples an oranges. Like I said, this observation means nothing...
post #135 of 149

Re: Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder
300 lb lineman in the NFL can beat those times. In the
I very much doubt a 300lb lineman can run a sub-12 100m. AFAIK the world record 100m is 9.78s and that was with a 2m/s tailwind, and the guys who run in the 10s are more like 160lbs.

Found some contemporary rugby player 100m times:
Caucau-10.9
Roko-10.66
Lomu-10.8
Howlett-10.8
Ben Tune-10.8
Chavhanga-10.74

Apparently Lomu's sub-12 was on a grass pitch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder
NFL a players speed in the 40yd dash is crucial. 4.1-4.3 is the standard in the NFL. If the rugby guys could compete for other positions then the NFL would have them other than kickers and punters.
Found some dubious figures via Google that give 40m times (40 yards ~= 36.5m).

Sosene Anesi- 4.53 sec <--- This guy is reckoned to run mid 10s 100m
Joe Rokocoko-4.66 sec

The figures I found for some quick NFL guys :
Raghib Ismael 4.29 40yard (wide reciever),
Barry Sanders 5ft10 215lbs (97kg) 4.4second 40yard time (running back)

I doubt the 300lb dudes out-pace Sanders over 40 yards.

On the strength of that I reckon that the Rugby Union speed-demons are capable of keeping pace, dunno about the forwards though. Apparently tight-5s run mid-4s to low-5s for a 40m dash.
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