Weights in the off season?

It's been a while, but I thought he said that 'unfit' people could benefit. The rationale being that doing any type of exercise is better than remaining sedentary, if your fitness is that low. Of course, riding a bike is still *better* for your cycling performance even if you are 'unfit,' so you should ride in preference to lifting weights if you want to see the most improvement in your cycling performance.

"Ric mentioned that new cyclists could benefit from weight training in the offseason."

Phew! Are you trying to start a war?

The topic has already been debated and remains available to browse. Not all cyclists or coaches recommend weights. It is thought to be useful for sprinting, though, or on track. All you can do is read former discussions on this site and listen to what everybody has to say and why most people feel weights is best left to the sprinters.

sparknote_s said:

I know there is a thread "Gyming to improve power" but it is hella-long and I have a followup question.

Ric mentioned that new cyclists could benefit from weight training in the offseason. I have only done road cycling for approx. 5 months. I consider my leg strength pretty damn low...I can squat only about 110 lbs for 8-10 reps. I am 5' 10" 135 lbs and most of my strength is upper body from competitive swimming, so that gives you an idea of how terrible my legs are.

I'm thinking of doing a weight program for leg strength.

Any suggestions?

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P.S. your leg strength shouldn't be a problem. All you have to do is spin a lower gear and you can bypass the effort required. Standing on climbs and driving your weight down on each leg should get you up the hills if you're light.
Large, bulky powerlifters are lousy at cycling yet they have far stronger legs than cyclists. So, strength shouldn't hold you back.

sparknote_s said:

I know there is a thread "Gyming to improve power" but it is hella-long and I have a followup question.

Ric mentioned that new cyclists could benefit from weight training in the offseason. I have only done road cycling for approx. 5 months. I consider my leg strength pretty damn low...I can squat only about 110 lbs for 8-10 reps. I am 5' 10" 135 lbs and most of my strength is upper body from competitive swimming, so that gives you an idea of how terrible my legs are.

I'm thinking of doing a weight program for leg strength.

Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

sparknote_s said:

I know there is a thread "Gyming to improve power" but it is hella-long and I have a followup question.

Ric mentioned that new cyclists could benefit from weight training in the offseason. I have only done road cycling for approx. 5 months. I consider my leg strength pretty damn low...I can squat only about 110 lbs for 8-10 reps. I am 5' 10" 135 lbs and most of my strength is upper body from competitive swimming, so that gives you an idea of how terrible my legs are.

I'm thinking of doing a weight program for leg strength.

Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

What do you mean by off season. Where do you live. Can you cycle outside all year long?

When you say that you cnsider your leg strength to be low, on what do you base that jugdement? Only on the fact that you consider that squatting 110lbs is not enough? Or is it you bike performances that lead you to think that?

Cheers

Leg weight training helps me...I can feel it. The way I see it is that it's kinda like working on your core muscle group. You use them all the time but when you do a specific excercise for them something just fires better after doing them. This effect lasts for a few days then I start to feel a need to do them again. I also notice this on my weak leg where every other week almost to the day it seems I have to specifically work my anterior lower leg by doing reverse calf raises. I also do very light squats and calf raises year round to stimulate "sleeping" muscles. Hell I even do lateral leg raises and standing leg curls without weights. I don't do heavy lifting for lack of equipment. These experiences make my cycling easier and more comfortable. It sits with me that my body needs it. Like drinking enough water or getting the proper amount of nutrients.These are my experiences. Papers, studies be damned. mike

I think what has been concluded is there is no specific evidence that proves the value of weights for cyclists who are distance riders as opposed to sprinters. Generally, the same view holds for running. Weights are considered to be an advantage for milers and middle distance runners like Seb Coe was. But there are doubts over the need for weights in marathon running.
Still, my own view is that squats do strengthen the lower back and, so far as I'm aware, a strong lumbar region is important for cyclists.
The main thing I do feel skeptical over is the value of leg-presses as I found this to be a waste of time and there is no way a leg-press will strengthen the lumbar region as it's supported throughout the exercise. I don't know why pro-riders bother with them (leg-presses).

cadence230 said:

Leg weight training helps me...I can feel it. The way I see it is that it's kinda like working on your core muscle group. You use them all the time but when you do a specific excercise for them something just fires better after doing them. This effect lasts for a few days then I start to feel a need to do them again. I also notice this on my weak leg where every other week almost to the day it seems I have to specifically work my anterior lower leg by doing reverse calf raises. I also do very light squats and calf raises year round to stimulate "sleeping" muscles. Hell I even do lateral leg raises and standing leg curls without weights. I don't do heavy lifting for lack of equipment. These experiences make my cycling easier and more comfortable. It sits with me that my body needs it. Like drinking enough water or getting the proper amount of nutrients.These are my experiences. Papers, studies be damned. mike

Click to expand...

All I can add to this discussion is that if you are hellbent on lifting weights in the off season, be sure that you aren't doing much intensity while on the bike. Easy spinning at 65% - 70% max HR is plenty. Maybe even cut back on the duration as well. Don't over do it. I'm gradually learning my lessons and I don't want to repeat the last few bouts of chronic fatigue I've had. No thanks.

Carrera said:

I think what has been concluded is there is no specific evidence that proves the value of weights for cyclists who are distance riders as opposed to sprinters. Generally, the same view holds for running. Weights are considered to be an advantage for milers and middle distance runners like Seb Coe was. But there are doubts over the need for weights in marathon running.
Still, my own view is that squats do strengthen the lower back and, so far as I'm aware, a strong lumbar region is important for cyclists.
The main thing I do feel skeptical over is the value of leg-presses as I found this to be a waste of time and there is no way a leg-press will strengthen the lumbar region as it's supported throughout the exercise. I don't know why pro-riders bother with them (leg-presses).

Click to expand...

Leg weight training helps me...I can feel it. The way I see it is that it's kinda like working on your core muscle group. You use them all the time but when you do a specific excercise for them something just fires better after doing them. This effect lasts for a few days then I start to feel a need to do them again. I also notice this on my weak leg where every other week almost to the day it seems I have to specifically work my anterior lower leg by doing reverse calf raises. I also do very light squats and calf raises year round to stimulate "sleeping" muscles. Hell I even do lateral leg raises and standing leg curls without weights. I don't do heavy lifting for lack of equipment. These experiences make my cycling easier and more comfortable. It sits with me that my body needs it. Like drinking enough water or getting the proper amount of nutrients.These are my experiences. Papers, studies be damned. mike

Now there's a circular argument - the original post re-posted in response to a response to the original post.

Cadence230, I have to give you credit for a well worded post. If lifting makes you feel better, more comfortable, and happier on the bike, then by all means go for it. I don't think anyone would try to deny you that.

The points that are made on the opposite side are that weight lifting won't make endurance cyclists ride faster or longer. If your workout time is at all limited, then you'll see better performance gains from riding your bike over lifting weights, and in fact lifting weights might actually hurt your endurance cycling performance.

If you lift weights because you like it, want to look better, have a previous injury that you want to strengthen, etc. then by all means do it. Just keep your comments in context, like Cadence230 has done, so that people don't get confused and think that it'll make them ride better.

what makes you think that more leg strength will make you a better cyclist?


and this is really just rehashing the same topic again, and again.

frenchyge said:

It's been a while, but I thought he said that 'unfit' people could benefit. The rationale being that doing any type of exercise is better than remaining sedentary, if your fitness is that low. Of course, riding a bike is still *better* for your cycling performance even if you are 'unfit,' so you should ride in preference to lifting weights if you want to see the most improvement in your cycling performance.

Click to expand...

This is correct.

Carrera said:

The main thing I do feel skeptical over is the value of leg-presses as I found this to be a waste of time and there is no way a leg-press will strengthen the lumbar region as it's supported throughout the exercise. I don't know why pro-riders bother with them (leg-presses).

Click to expand...

Then why do the Aussie Sprint Team use one leg leg press as their main exercise in the gym?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

I'm not one of the anti-leg press guys, but there are some profound differences between squats and leg presses.

Leg presses don't work much if any of the anterior chain. They also don't work any stabilization groups, such as the hip abductors. They also tend to isolate the quads much more than squats. Let's face it, back squats are an entire body exercise! Leg presses also tend to be fine for people who are interested in pure hypertrophy with no real world strengh/athletic gains - i.e. the muscle developed from leg presses will have very little real world transfer. And finally, leg presses do seem to be suited to "some" athletes (speed skaters come to mind) over squats. And, leg presses don't effect the metabolism or HGH levels the way squats do by a long shot.

Leg presses can also be harmful to the lower back if one allows the knees to come down far enough to raise the lower back off of the support. This is probably why the Aussie team does them one leg at a time as this lessens the curving of the lower back.

Some people with lower back and disc problems, such as Lance Armstrong and myself, can't really do squats with an effective weight so leg presses are a viable substitute. I personally have experienced better gains from a leg extension and leg press routine over squats for my quads back when I was into bodybuilding. A lot of it is up to the idividual's response to specific stresses - what works for one may not work well for another.

I'm not endorsing either squats or leg presses here. There are arguments for and against either of them. I'm also not endorsing doing either for cycling training. These are both best left up to one's coach.

And finally, yes this topic has been covered ad nauseam.

frenchyge said:

Now there's a circular argument - the original post re-posted in response to a response to the original post.

Cadence230, I have to give you credit for a well worded post. If lifting makes you feel better, more comfortable, and happier on the bike, then by all means go for it. I don't think anyone would try to deny you that.

The points that are made on the opposite side are that weight lifting won't make endurance cyclists ride faster or longer. If your workout time is at all limited, then you'll see better performance gains from riding your bike over lifting weights, and in fact lifting weights might actually hurt your endurance cycling performance.

If you lift weights because you like it, want to look better, have a previous injury that you want to strengthen, etc. then by all means do it. Just keep your comments in context, like Cadence230 has done, so that people don't get confused and think that it'll make them ride better.

Click to expand...

Mercy buckets!

I am a fairly competetive cyclist (low (4-5) category racer) and I go to the gym to lift weights.

BUT, I feel that my cycling does not improve directly from it. Let me explain, I lift in the months of September through mid December. During this time frame my bicycle is put away and not even looked at. I do some aerobic maintenance stuff like kayaking and some light jogging. I treat this as a transition phase. I start riding the bicycle again in early December and stop lifting at that point. If I dont do this, about mid March I burn out on training (mentally) and have to take a 3-4 week break (bad).

The other benefit is that I dont look so scrawny during the season because I have a little upper body muscel. My girlfriend likes that.

I know that all of this wont make me competetive with Lance and the pro boys, but that is not one of my goals.

So in response to the original post, Look at what your goals are, do you want to be a pro cyclist, or dominate the local races? Then your training time will be better spent on the bike. Or is your goal to lose some weight, look a little better to the opposite sex, and gain a little confidence. Then going to the gym might be an option.

If you do go to the gym keep in mind that you are not training to be a body builder. I recommend getting either The Cyclists Training Bible, by Joe Friel, or the Ultimate Ride by Chris Carmicheal (I recomend this one because it has a little more updated info) and following the gym program outlined in there.

I may be one of the few cyclists on the forum who has conducted experiments on this theme, myself as the guinea pig.
The first experiment was simple. I got diagnosed with an inguinal hernia so my doctor urged me to cycle but do no straining or weight-training. So, I packed in all squatting for at least 4 months and just cycled.
When I decided to resume gym work, I opted for leg-presses as I figured my back would be supported and, therefore, the hernia injury wouldn't be at so much risk. I did my first leg-press session with medium weight and expected to be sore and stiff the following day.
But nothing at all happened. The leg presses didn't have any lactic effect or cause the slightest ache. After increasing the weight I dropped leg-presses altogether. I concluded they were a waste of time and that I'd be better of risking light squats or even smith squats.
So, then I set off to the sports stadium and did my first squat session. Bear in mind that during this period I was still cycling and doing lots of hills.
The result of the squat session compared with leg-press was astonishing. After 1 set with only 120 pounds, my thigh muscles reacted so much I got cramp throughout the muscles. I did one more set and ceased the session. The following morning I was crippled and hobbling around like a puppet on a string.
Conclusion: Whether squats are bad for cyclists or not is another question. What I do know is squats do something while, on the other hand, leg-presses do precious little.
Plus leg-presses mimic the cycling contraction if you examine the movement (a quarter rep extension of the leg). This is probably why they didn't make me feel sore in any way the following day. squats, however, are unlike cycling contractions and strongly involve the glutes and lower back.
But the drawback with squats is they're aggressive and many cycling coaches dislike them as the exercise is so aggressive and demanding on your recuperative powers. If you do them, you have to be very careful what you're doing and remember the golden rule: squats are generally used for sprinting cycling training to aid explosive power. But it's possible they could adversely affect your long-term stamina (sprinters do very bady in the mountain stages of the TDF, for example).

fergie said:

Then why do the Aussie Sprint Team use one leg leg press as their main exercise in the gym?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

Click to expand...

Carrera said:

When I decided to resume gym work, I opted for leg-presses as I figured my back would be supported and, therefore, the hernia injury wouldn't be at so much risk. I did my first leg-press session with medium weight and expected to be sore and stiff the following day.

But nothing at all happened. The leg presses didn't have any lactic effect or cause the slightest ache. After increasing the weight I dropped leg-presses altogether. I concluded they were a waste of time and that I'd be better of risking light squats or even smith squats.

So, then I set off to the sports stadium and did my first squat session. Bear in mind that during this period I was still cycling and doing lots of hills.
The result of the squat session compared with leg-press was astonishing. After 1 set with only 120 pounds, my thigh muscles reacted so much I got cramp throughout the muscles. I did one more set and ceased the session. The following morning I was crippled and hobbling around like a puppet on a string.

Conclusion: Whether squats are bad for cyclists or not is another question. What I do know is squats do something while, on the other hand, leg-presses do precious little.

Click to expand...

I used to love them. Back in the late 80's at Coffee's Gym in Atlanta (Felt_Rider used to train there too) I used to do 4 sets of leg extensions with a light to medium weight for 12 to 15 reps then get on a 45 degree leg press with 3 to 4 45 pounders on each side (That's 22 kilo's for those traitors that have dumped the royal standards) and do between 12 to 20 reps of slow smooth reps stopping just shy of lockout on each rep. At the time I weighed about 215ish. I couldn't begin to do that now though. I used to see so many people go load up the machine and snap their legs at the top portion of the movement. How horrible. All I could do is watch in disbelief and shake my head as these hacks tried to pretend they were doing some good. These are the same idiots you see bouncing the bar off their chest when benching and have one arm going up faster than the other. An accident waiting to happen.

There was even a time when I was fairly conditioned for squats and could do 5 sets of 5 with a pause at parallel with 265 Lbs. That would be my light day and wouldn't result in much if any soreness. My heavy day would be 5 x 5 with around 315. This was back in the early 80's at college when I weighed about 220. Obviously, I never was much of a squatter. Used to have a decent bench and deadlift though, even though I never really trained for deads.

Whenever I was conditioned for weights (unlike now! ) I had the same experiences with leg extensions as you did with leg press. The next day I couldn't tell that I had done anything. The same holds true for certain tricep isolation exercises like pushdowns or dumbell kickbacks. Give me lying extensions or close grip bench anyday.

These days if I do 3 sets of 20 with 70 Lbs I'm torn up for about a week. Now THAT's some serious deconditioning! Due to my lower back problems I most likely won't ever load up the bar and squat again but I may be able to do the pre-exhaustive extensions and leg presses like I did before, albeit with less weight. First I'd like to be able to do 4 sets of 20 with 100 lbs on squats before joining a gym so I could get my money's worth and not embarrass myself too much.

GIFF07 said:

I am a fairly competetive cyclist (low (4-5) category racer) and I go to the gym to lift weights.

BUT, I feel that my cycling does not improve directly from it. Let me explain, I lift in the months of September through mid December. During this time frame my bicycle is put away and not even looked at. I do some aerobic maintenance stuff like kayaking and some light jogging. I treat this as a transition phase. I start riding the bicycle again in early December and stop lifting at that point. If I dont do this, about mid March I burn out on training (mentally) and have to take a 3-4 week break (bad).

The other benefit is that I dont look so scrawny during the season because I have a little upper body muscel. My girlfriend likes that.

I know that all of this wont make me competetive with Lance and the pro boys, but that is not one of my goals.

So in response to the original post, Look at what your goals are, do you want to be a pro cyclist, or dominate the local races? Then your training time will be better spent on the bike. Or is your goal to lose some weight, look a little better to the opposite sex, and gain a little confidence. Then going to the gym might be an option.

If you do go to the gym keep in mind that you are not training to be a body builder. I recommend getting either The Cyclists Training Bible, by Joe Friel, or the Ultimate Ride by Chris Carmicheal (I recomend this one because it has a little more updated info) and following the gym program outlined in there.

Click to expand...

Well said!! I confesse that I usually do weight, all year long. But that's only for appearence. AND you should see my weight program during the cycling season : 8 sets (2chest, 2pulldowns, 2back, 2 light legpress) and bye bye boss!

And even then, this summer, I had a pretty bad start on the bike. I decided to quit legpress in may. But even then, I use to struggle to improve on intervals longer than 2k. So I decided to quit the rest of my WL program : I'd rather save my glycogen for doing better during quality workouts (Intervals, TT tempo etc).

Sometimes it makes me wonder. How on earth, can you go to the gymn, to push Iron for 1:30 hour, the day after a tough interval workout, and the day before a big group ride , and a long ride the day after, and a race on sunday. And what... on monday, you can't rest, you gotta go to gymn pumping Iron for 1:30 hour again, before getting back to hard cycling workouts by Tuesday? Honnestly, I don't get it

I also enjoyed the time I spent as a barbell nut and all the contests I went to e.t.c. In fact, speaking of contests I even recall chatting to Robby Robinson at a show that was held not too far from here.
The most I recall squatting was 400 pounds for a deep rep and that wasn't so long ago. However, I really started to suffer from deep pain in the hip area after sessions and my knees ached. Later my inguinal hernia got a bit worse.
So, now, I think the decision to switch to cycling was a very unexpected but wise choice. I needed something less aggressive on the body and I also came to understand I had never worked my body on a cardio basis. In fact, my bodybuilding approach may not have been so healthy as I was eating a lot of meat and poultry but not doing any specific cardio training.
In my bodybuilding days, though, I guess I dominated the sport in my area. There was always someone who could maybe outbench me by 10 kilos or so but then I'd leave that person well behind on squats. And if anyone could outsquat me, I'd beat them on the bench. I was quite strong on all the exercises but I only weighed 200 pounds.
Now I'm trying to convert this to cycling. Whereas it was rare for me to encounter people in the gym who could match me, there are many cyclists in my area who can push me quite hard. Maybe this is because people are being taught how to train correctly on a bike whereas most people were a bit clueless as to how to get strong and muscular in the gym.
Still my cycling performance is slowly getting there. I also think cycling is more competitive as a sport than bodybuilding and, of course, cycling has a massive following in Europe.

Doctor Morbius said:

I used to love them. Back in the late 80's at Coffee's Gym in Atlanta (Felt_Rider used to train there too) I used to do 4 sets of leg extensions with a light to medium weight for 12 to 15 reps then get on a 45 degree leg press with 3 to 4 45 pounders on each side (That's 22 kilo's for those traitors that have dumped the royal standards) and do between 12 to 20 reps of slow smooth reps stopping just shy of lockout on each rep. At the time I weighed about 215ish. I couldn't begin to do that now though. I used to see so many people go load up the machine and snap their legs at the top portion of the movement. How horrible. All I could do is watch in disbelief and shake my head as these hacks tried to pretend they were doing some good. These are the same idiots you see bouncing the bar off their chest when benching and have one arm going up faster than the other. An accident waiting to happen.

There was even a time when I was fairly conditioned for squats and could do 5 sets of 5 with a pause at parallel with 265 Lbs. That would be my light day and wouldn't result in much if any soreness. My heavy day would be 5 x 5 with around 315. This was back in the early 80's at college when I weighed about 220. Obviously, I never was much of a squatter. Used to have a decent bench and deadlift though, even though I never really trained for deads.

Whenever I was conditioned for weights (unlike now! ) I had the same experiences with leg extensions as you did with leg press. The next day I couldn't tell that I had done anything. The same holds true for certain tricep isolation exercises like pushdowns or dumbell kickbacks. Give me lying extensions or close grip bench anyday.

These days if I do 3 sets of 20 with 70 Lbs I'm torn up for about a week. Now THAT's some serious deconditioning! Due to my lower back problems I most likely won't ever load up the bar and squat again but I may be able to do the pre-exhaustive extensions and leg presses like I did before, albeit with less weight. First I'd like to be able to do 4 sets of 20 with 100 lbs on squats before joining a gym so I could get my money's worth and not embarrass myself too much.

Click to expand...