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% increases in power required to improve average TT speed - Page 4

post #46 of 61
6/6/05 at 4:47pm

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST
just because you're big doesn't mean you can't be more aero, as some of the other posters have said.

ric
other than adding aerobars and TT wheels, there is very very little I can do to improve my aerodynamics/position on the bike.
maybe there is some magic way of making myself more aero, but I don't know it, so if you do, please share.
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post #47 of 61
6/6/05 at 6:08pm

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by velomanct
other than adding aerobars and TT wheels, there is very very little I can do to improve my aerodynamics/position on the bike.
maybe there is some magic way of making myself more aero, but I don't know it, so if you do, please share.
I think for us taller riders we need to switch to the low-racer recumbants. Punch a similar size hole in the wind as the little guys but make way more power. No more wheel suckers that barely give a draft to recover in while they soft pedal at the front!
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post #48 of 61
6/6/05 at 6:18pm

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilmar13
Nah I don't think so, unless you radically change the geometry of the bike your legs extend the same amount relative to the wind either way...
Your legs don't change but the combined frontal area of bike and rider would decrease slightly because there would be less head tube and seat post directly exposed. Lowering the BB and placing the body, cranks and BB more in air already disturbed by the front wheel and frame would probably help, though it would take many expensivve hours of testing to be sure.
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post #49 of 61
6/7/05 at 10:22pm

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by velomanct
thats funny, because I averaged 300watts in that crit yesterday. dead flat course, 25.5mph average, and I was sitting in for 95% of the race.
Well in the name of knowledge rather than selfish pursuits tonight during a training circuit race I gathered some data to add to this discussion. The course is 5.8km (3.6miles) long around a lake with a total of 40M (131 ft) of climbing, three turns, two short rollers (one is steep), and one long false flat that turns into a long steady climb. I was also testing lateral G’s for another thread (again only to gather data ) by heading into the tightest, sketchiest turn at high rate of speed, after the turn I had a small gap and went for it (at this point I hit my lap counter). I soloed one lap off the front at an avg. speed of 46Km/hr (28.5mph) and my avg. power output for that lap was 447 watts with a relatively low max of 715 watts up the climb. Two guys bridged across to me and after I completed that lap I was cooked (I didn‘t plan to stay away), they were too but we began to work together (well one guy worked the other one sucked wheel and soft pedaled) and we stayed away for the rest of the “race“. Working with those guys I have another set of data for 5 laps with an avg. speed of 41km/hr (25.5mph) and my avg. power output was 363watts(FWIW we stayed away and the wheel sucker won the sprint, arrgh its training you jackass!). During the solo lap I was aero as possible with my non-aero Road bike and kit. I do have my bars 5” below my saddle and have a pretty good flat position (IMO of course). Now it is muddying the water a little since this isn’t the flat road with no wind, but I just can’t believe that even with aero wheels, an aero helmet and aero bars I could get below 300 watts for 25mph. I suppose I could plug in the numbers and solve for my frontal area, but I think us bigger guys just need to make much more power for the same results as little guys… man if only we could swap engines into a smaller chassis
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post #50 of 61
6/7/05 at 10:26pm

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by velomanct
other than adding aerobars and TT wheels, there is very very little I can do to improve my aerodynamics/position on the bike.
maybe there is some magic way of making myself more aero, but I don't know it, so if you do, please share.
Well in the photos I do have to admit, you are a little bit more upright than the other guys... maybe you were sitting up at at instant, but to get your upper body a little lower would help some (as long as you can maintain power in that position).
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post #51 of 61
6/8/05 at 3:46am

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilmar13
Well in the photos I do have to admit, you are a little bit more upright than the other guys... maybe you were sitting up at at instant, but to get your upper body a little lower would help some (as long as you can maintain power in that position).
often, it can be worth *losing* power for a more aero position, as the gain in increased aerodynamics offsets the reduced power.

also, if you train in an aero position (or whatever position) your body will gradually adapt and your power will come back up.

ric "my handlebars are 18 cm below my saddle on a standard road bike"
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post #52 of 61
6/8/05 at 9:13am
Thread Starter 

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST
often, it can be worth *losing* power for a more aero position, as the gain in increased aerodynamics offsets the reduced power.

also, if you train in an aero position (or whatever position) your body will gradually adapt and your power will come back up.

ric "my handlebars are 18 cm below my saddle on a standard road bike"
Ric, so you are saying you ride with an 18cm drop to the tops?!

I had a cyclefit(.co.uk) some time ago and they slashed my drop from 16cm to 10 in the interests of comfort and power development, something im still not sure about. One of their arguments being that severe drops have become a fashion issue and that the pro's of old (look at pictures of mercx) seldom had as much as 10cm.

At the end of the day though I think I prefer the wisdom that power:frontal area is far more imprtant than power at any cost, but don’t you find this inhibits ability to do longer rides in comfort?

I try to do any muscle development work - ie very low cadence - on the drops for the purpose of hitting the muscles in race position. I also like rowing as a form of cross training - apart from beign good for core strength I like the way it makes you breathe hard in a really scrunched up position, seems to be great simulation of the the drop position.
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post #53 of 61
6/8/05 at 10:25am

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by robkit
Ric, so you are saying you ride with an 18cm drop to the tops?!
yes, that's the distance to either the top of my bars or top of my brake hoods (can't recall at this point in time).

I ride an S-Works compact frame, with a Ritchey negative rise stem (it's only 'slightly' negative)

Quote:
I had a cyclefit(.co.uk) some time ago and they slashed my drop from 16cm to 10 in the interests of comfort and power development, something im still not sure about. One of their arguments being that severe drops have become a fashion issue and that the pro's of old (look at pictures of mercx) seldom had as much as 10cm.
i once had a fit from a similar company and they suggested something like an 8 cm drop. anyway, after a few weeks of riding like that i put a new set of forks and dropped the bars right down in one go. It felt 'weird' for maybe a week at first and the bike handled slightly differently. my power stayed the same (or dropped slightly) and my speed increased quite a bit.

Quote:
At the end of the day though I think I prefer the wisdom that power:frontal area is far more imprtant than power at any cost, but don’t you find this inhibits ability to do longer rides in comfort?
last week i did 5 hrs over 3 passes. my **** was a bit sore at the end of the ride, and i most likely was grumpy at my wife as i was a bit knackered. i don't notice any undue discomfort (other than you're likely to get from a 5-hr ride).

i generally don't train any longer than this, but if i was daft enough to ride a 12-hr TT again, i don't think i'd change my position

Quote:
I try to do any muscle development work - ie very low cadence - on the drops for the purpose of hitting the muscles in race position. I also like rowing as a form of cross training - apart from beign good for core strength I like the way it makes you breathe hard in a really scrunched up position, seems to be great simulation of the the drop position.
neither rowing or low cadence work is likely to be of any benefit to cycling performance (unless you happen to race at low cadences or incorporate rowing into your cycling).

ric
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post #54 of 61
6/8/05 at 11:57am

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by robkit
Ric, so you are saying you ride with an 18cm drop to the tops?!

I had a cyclefit(.co.uk) some time ago and they slashed my drop from 16cm to 10 in the interests of comfort and power development, something im still not sure about. One of their arguments being that severe drops have become a fashion issue and that the pro's of old (look at pictures of mercx) seldom had as much as 10cm.

At the end of the day though I think I prefer the wisdom that power:frontal area is far more imprtant than power at any cost, but don’t you find this inhibits ability to do longer rides in comfort?

I try to do any muscle development work - ie very low cadence - on the drops for the purpose of hitting the muscles in race position. I also like rowing as a form of cross training - apart from beign good for core strength I like the way it makes you breathe hard in a really scrunched up position, seems to be great simulation of the the drop position.
I ride with 16 cm drop and also have no discomfort. With the bars this low it seems that my most aerodynamic position is on the tops with hands close together and elbows dropped so that forearms are paralell to the ground. It closes my chest off and still puts me flat-backed.
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post #55 of 61
6/8/05 at 2:30pm
Thread Starter 

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST
neither rowing or low cadence work is likely to be of any benefit to cycling performance (unless you happen to race at low cadences or incorporate rowing into your cycling).
ric
i know you're right when it comes to the insiginficance of strength training, and specificity, and im sure that rowing doesnt do much for cycling from the phsiological perspective but from the mental one the feeling of rowing helps me adjust to working hard with my knees almost on my chest!
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post #56 of 61
6/8/05 at 2:52pm

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by robkit
i know you're right when it comes to the insiginficance of strength training, and specificity, and im sure that rowing doesnt do much for cycling from the phsiological perspective but from the mental one the feeling of rowing helps me adjust to working hard with my knees almost on my chest!
i don't want to state the obvious, but why don't you just do some training on the bike on the drops, as that's specific. It's just that all that hard work you must presumably put into rowing is somewhat 'wasted'.

ric
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post #57 of 61
6/9/05 at 11:36am

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by robkit
At the end of the day though I think I prefer the wisdom that power:frontal area is far more imprtant than power at any cost, but don’t you find this inhibits ability to do longer rides in comfort?
What kind of discomfort are we talking about? I find that the main thing that keeps me up on the hoods is my desire to look ahead for road hazards or issues with the other riders, and my main discomfort from long periods on the drops is neck pain.
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post #58 of 61
6/12/05 at 5:27pm

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

Velomanct, looking at your pics (their kind' of small) I can see that you're carrying a fair bit of thickness through your upper body, your shoulders are pretty wide and you're thick viewed from the side (compared to the typical competitive cyclist). The thickness is quite evident from that profile shot, with the small cyclist riding behind you. This is an area contributing to a lot of the drag, I'm a bit similar to you (at 6 feet, 77 kg) my shoulders are bulging and I'm somewhat thick. I've dropped all weight training for my upper body but so far I'm not seeing much shrinkage in my upper body muscle mass. I've noticed that the biggest effect for me (drag) is if I can get my arms forward and close together, lowering my drops has only had a small effect on my speed.

I've looked at pictures of Boardman doing his athletes hour record, and I see that his shoulders are quite small and has his bike setup (standard, yet aero!) so that his arms are way forward of his body, a position that probably makes a big difference to drag. See the pictures of Boardman here: http://www.lunt.demon.co.uk/athletes.htm
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post #59 of 61
6/12/05 at 8:22pm

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

it seemed that most of the guys in that race were all quite small. I never considered myself to have a non-skinny upper body, haha. my latest stats are 6'1" 175lbs. i do weight lift to keep my strength, but I am definitely one of the skinniest guys in the gym. im not all that concerned with this issue anymore, i'm not doing an TTs so its not big thing to me.
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post #60 of 61
6/23/05 at 12:18am

Re: % increases in power required to improve average TT speed

[QUOTE=acoggan]Never seen a hooker? My, what a sheltered life you've led!
[QUOTE]

I also lead a sheltered life and have never seen a hooker (well the bike version) , but I found this:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadin...rs/hooker.html
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