A Tough Student

Another question, is why would you bother? While you're at it, why don't you tell her to lose the
accent, and tell her that her hairstyle sucks, too. You've been officially added to the membership
of the "I want to soil my boss' daughter" club. Sicko.

In article <[email protected]>, Citizen Ted wrote:
>
> In addition to assistant coaching for a local running group, I've been getting folks at work
> to run with me. This week, I've been running with Gabby, the company president's daughter,
> who works upstairs.
>
> Gabby is about 5'4", nice figure, reasonably good shape. She wants to lose about 15-20
> pounds and tone up. IMHO, 15 pounds is about the most she should lose. She has curvy hips
> and moderate build. The world already has enough twiggy women in it.
>
> She's a very headstrong person, likes to overdo everything. But she's also personable and
> open to advice - if only just a little bit of advice. Since she's a beginner, I got her to
> toss out the "run every single day, lose weight fast" approach in favor of the "run every
> other day, weight train in between" approach.

Does she want to set a world record, or just shape up ? No need to push so hard -- her form will
tighten up with a bit of speed work. IMO nagging someone about their "form" is one of the best ways
to kill the enjoyment. For now, it's probably better that she enjoys her workouts than it is that
she runs with "optimal form". Most beginners run with positively attrocious form, and for the most
part, little harm comes of it.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

>So, I ask the Ozzies of the group: how do you gently prod a stubborn runner to practice good form?

An electric cattle prod in the ****.

Bill R.

=============> - -- - ( . ) Rogers ass pre-Bill, ( 0 ) and Rogers ass post-Bill

OO

In article <[email protected]>, Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Citizen Ted wrote:
> >
> > In addition to assistant coaching for a local running group, I've been getting folks at work
> > to run with me. This week, I've been running with Gabby, the company president's daughter,
> > who works upstairs.
> >
> > Gabby is about 5'4", nice figure, reasonably good shape. She wants to lose about 15-20
> > pounds and tone up. IMHO, 15 pounds is about the most she should lose. She has curvy hips
> > and moderate build. The world already has enough twiggy women in it.
> >
> > She's a very headstrong person, likes to overdo everything. But she's also personable and
> > open to advice - if only just a little bit of advice. Since she's a beginner, I got her to
> > toss out the "run every single day, lose weight fast" approach in favor of the "run every
> > other day, weight train in between" approach.
>
> Does she want to set a world record, or just shape up ? No need to push so hard -- her form will
> tighten up with a bit of speed work. IMO nagging someone about their "form" is one of the best
> ways to kill the enjoyment. For now, it's probably better that she enjoys her workouts than it is
> that she runs with "optimal form". Most beginners run with positively attrocious form, and for the
> most part, little harm comes of it.
>
> Cheers,

i don't know about that last comment. most people i talk to say they have done the running thing at
one time or another, but that the aches and pains made them stop. those nagging aches and pains are
often the result of less-than-good form. even just *trying* to keep good form is a step in the right
direction.... especially for a beginner. if they want to run pain and injury-free for many years to
come, then it's best to start out with good habits. not create bad habits that become very difficult
to correct years later, when the body is REALLY rebelling.

since you (Ted) are helping her out with an easy-does-it plan, how about just introducing one
small tip about good form each week? the best one to start with IMO is to encourage bringing the
hips forward... that tends to naturally bring the rest of the body into alignment - more or less,
and then it's easier to work on the head and shoulders, etc later on. explain the WHY's of the
form... that she'll avoid aches and pains due to her forward posture. find out her goals, and tie
in your instruction with her plans. but a positive spin, plus much encouragement, can go a long
way. best of luck,

Cam

> My primary problem with her is her form. She leans forward, head down, and plods. I've tried
> several times to get her head up, hips forward, elbows back, but she just won't do it. She
> says it feels too uncomfortable and "wrong".

See if she'll do some core strengthening exercises; the ones in RW a few months ago have done
wonders for my form. If she does those, say during a break in her run, her form should improve
without any conscious effort on her part.

--
Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

Citizen Ted wrote:

> So, I ask the Ozzies of the group: how do you gently prod a stubborn runner to practice good
> form? Don't forget here that she's the CEO's daughter, heiress to a fortune and could have
> my ass canned in a nanosecond. I have to be diplomatic about this.
>
> - TR
> - how do you boss the boss?
>
>
>
>
Hill running on trails with rolling hills - but introduce gradually so she doesn't have too much fun
in one day and get hurt. My form increased substantially on hills, but my problems were with picking
up my feet and dorsiflexing and not with keeping head up. But the uphill sections might force her to
look up. Ozzie's image of balancing a broomstick might help. Encourage her to look to the horizon,
sky crane holding head up. Run where she can, walk if needed. Hill fartleks - run up, walk down or
vice versa, depending on goal of the day and what she can handle - but keep the run aerobic. Having
obstacles to aim for (like top of hill), makes a fun way to do fartleks, and a more tolerable way of
including walking if needed. Hills pack more wallop for exercise in a limited time, but probably
only want to do them once a week. If she tends to be aggressive in her workouts, they can be really
great to let out aggressiveness without the pounding of faster work on flat ground. (I know On
the same note, mt biking the hills can also help with conditioning (and letting out aggressive
tendencies).

If she's needing walk breaks for aerobic reasons (as opposed to muscles, tendons tired), then
slowing down a little might help avoid the stitch issue. As Brian mentioned, core strengthening -
especially running specific exercises. I've been reading some good things about PVV (proprioceptive,
visual, vestibular) training that has resulted in better strength gains than weight training and
helps correct muscle imbalances. Some of the exercises my PT gave me are based on those principles.
And I'll start incorporating some of these others for diversity.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

[email protected] (Citizen Ted) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> So, I ask the Ozzies of the group: how do you gently prod a stubborn runner to practice good
> form?

By not insisting that she is doing something wrong.

The thing is to *somehow* get her running in a better form and thus allowing her to discover what
doing it right is like herself.

The obvious problem is how to acchieve that, and I´d suggest sneakly introducing a "running
technique school" by calling it a warmup workout or something: high knee steps, heel kicks, elbow
swings in diagonal rhythm, correct landing and upright posture, the whole works.

If you´re lucky, something of it will seep through her resistance and change her running form for
the better.

Anders Ozzie

"Brian Baresch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > My primary problem with her is her form. She leans forward, head down, and plods. I've tried
> > several times to get her head up, hips forward, elbows back, but she just won't do it. She says
> > it feels too uncomfortable and "wrong".
>
> See if she'll do some core strengthening exercises; the ones in RW a few months ago have done
> wonders for my form.

Brian, do you have a link?

> If she does those, say during a break in her run, her form should improve without any conscious
> effort on her part.

In article <[email protected]>, Brian Baresch
<[email protected]> wrote:

> > My primary problem with her is her form. She leans forward, head down, and plods. I've tried
> > several times to get her head up, hips forward, elbows back, but she just won't do it. She
> > says it feels too uncomfortable and "wrong".
>
> See if she'll do some core strengthening exercises; the ones in RW a few months ago have done
> wonders for my form. If she does those, say during a break in her run, her form should improve
> without any conscious effort on her part.

yes, good suggestion. i find that my poor form shows up when i've been neglecting core strengthening
exercises, which are usually a variety of crunches for the mid-section and gentle toe touches for
the low back.

perhaps the student has a need for this type of exercise, and with added strength in the core, she
can more naturally hold good form.

Cam

In article <[email protected]>, Cam Wilson wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>, Citizen Ted wrote:
>> >
>> > In addition to assistant coaching for a local running group, I've been getting folks at work
>> > to run with me. This week, I've been running with Gabby, the company president's daughter,
>> > who works upstairs.
>> >
>> > Gabby is about 5'4", nice figure, reasonably good shape. She wants to lose about 15-20
>> > pounds and tone up. IMHO, 15 pounds is about the most she should lose. She has curvy hips
>> > and moderate build. The world already has enough twiggy women in it.
>> >
>> > She's a very headstrong person, likes to overdo everything. But she's also personable and
>> > open to advice - if only just a little bit of advice. Since she's a beginner, I got her to
>> > toss out the "run every single day, lose weight fast" approach in favor of the "run every
>> > other day, weight train in between" approach.
>>
>> Does she want to set a world record, or just shape up ? No need to push so hard -- her form will
>> tighten up with a bit of speed work. IMO nagging someone about their "form" is one of the best
>> ways to kill the enjoyment. For now, it's probably better that she enjoys her workouts than it is
>> that she runs with "optimal form". Most beginners run with positively attrocious form, and for
>> the most part, little harm comes of it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>
> i don't know about that last comment. most people i talk to say they have done the running thing
> at one time or another, but that the aches and pains made them stop. those nagging aches and pains
> are often the result of less-than-good form.

IMO the main problem is actually that beginners usually don't run at an appropriate pace, and
they're pushing themselves close to the limit of their performance. For example, a beginner who can
race 5k at 8:0 pace will usually train at 8:30 pace. So it's a combination of pushing too hard in
every workout, *and* running with terrible form. And often, they are wearing inappropriate shoes,
and they're heavier than optimal which makes them more injury prone. Basically, beginners do almost
everything "wrong", and are vulnerable to injury.

> even just *trying* to keep good form is a step in the right direction.... especially for a
> beginner. if they want

Yes, but if they end up quitting because some idiot always tells them "you're doing it wrong", and
it destroys their enjoyment to the point that it just proves to be an exercise in frustration, then
maybe it's not a step in the right direction.

It's only a step in the right direction if you can get them to internalise your good advice.

> to run pain and injury-free for many years to come, then it's best to start out with good habits.
> not create bad habits that become very difficult to correct years later, when the body is REALLY
> rebelling.

You're assuming that not consciously working on form will result in bad habits. An assumption that
is completely wrong, IMO. I have never at any stage worked consciously on form, yet succesfully made
the transition from attrocious form to reasonable form. A combination of speedwork and consistent
practice can do wonders for form.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

In article <[email protected]>, Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> wrote:

> > even just *trying* to keep good form is a step in the right direction.... especially for a
> > beginner. if they want
>
> Yes, but if they end up quitting because some idiot always tells them "you're doing it wrong", and
> it destroys their enjoyment to the point that it just proves to be an exercise in frustration,
> then maybe it's not a step in the right direction.

hey, who's calling who an idiot?!

i don't think Citizen Ted's intention is to brow-beat his student constantly for poor form, just to
gently encourage her to practise some good form. gently... occasionally. and as you say, maybe let
it go most of the time, if there are no bad side-effects.

> It's only a step in the right direction if you can get them to internalise your good advice.

and that's where the psychologist/teacher in us would come in handy. to assess the runner's needs
and goals and to tailor the instruction to those things.

> > to run pain and injury-free for many years to come, then it's best to start out with good
> > habits. not create bad habits that become very difficult to correct years later, when the body
> > is REALLY rebelling.
>
> You're assuming that not consciously working on form will result in bad habits. An assumption that
> is completely wrong, IMO. I have never at any stage worked consciously on form, yet succesfully
> made the transition from attrocious form to reasonable form. A combination of speedwork and
> consistent practice can do wonders for form.

not assuming, but since Ted sees a lot of room for improvement, then at least getting the student to
TRY to hold good form is better than trying to enforce totally perfect technique all of the time.
like you say, this would only lead to an ex-runner. agreed that speedwork helps, but that's not
something that a total beginner needs.

nice chattin',

Cam

In article <[email protected]>, Citizen Ted <[email protected]> wrote:
>
[snip]

> Gabby is about 5'4", nice figure, reasonably good shape. She wants to lose about 15-20
> pounds and tone up. IMHO, 15 pounds is about the most she should lose. She has curvy hips
> and moderate build. The world already has enough twiggy women in it.

A little too much attention to her non-running form.
:-?

> She's a very headstrong person, likes to overdo everything. But she's also personable and
> open to advice - if only just a little bit of advice. Since she's a beginner, I got her to
> toss out the "run every single day, lose weight fast" approach in favor of the "run every
> other day, weight train in between" approach.

A good starting point.

> We run 3.2 miles at about 10min/mi pace. She can finish the loop most days but needs walk
> breaks once in a while. I can tell that she has more oomph in her, but she gets side
> stitches when she moves faster than her comfort zone. This is understandable. I'm going to
> get her to run some short intervals after the next few weeks, giving her as many walk breaks
> as she needs. Unless she starts getting pain or injuries, we'll see if she can decrease her
> times and feel comfortable doing it.

Increasing duration is typically better for fitness, and especially for the weight loss she's
interested in.

It may be too early to start with counting breaths, but I did find that on adopting an odd total
cycle (as suggested in the FAQ) I ceased having stitch problems.

> My primary problem with her is her form. She leans forward, head down, and plods. I've tried
> several times to get her head up, hips forward, elbows back, but she just won't do it. She
> says it feels too uncomfortable and "wrong". I can commiserate - I felt the same way when I
> was working on my form. But I just can't get her to make any change at all. Sure, some
> people become great runners with atypical form. Fine. But I just don't see her Herman
> Munster routine doing anything but causing her eventual hip and back pain, not to mention
> plantar pain.
>
> So, I ask the Ozzies of the group: how do you gently prod a stubborn runner to practice good
> form? Don't forget here that she's the CEO's daughter, heiress to a fortune and could have
> my ass canned in a nanosecond. I have to be diplomatic about this.
>
> - TR
> - how do you boss the boss?

I'll be starting up my beginner's group again on May 10th, so such questions (of teaching form)
are in mind. I don't see that it makes much difference whether she's the CEO's daughter or the
proverbial scullery maid. You're coaching a person. Coaching by edict -- "Do this; because I say
so" is not very effective with many people, heiress or scullery.

As Dot mentioned, and I've found to work in my coaching, it is important to explain why it is you
want her do change form. At hand, you may well be able to cure multiple birds with one stone. The
curled over posture is
a) mechanically inefficient, making it harder to run for either duration or speed b) restricts her
breathing, making it harder to run for either duration or speed c) may well be encouraging the
development of her stitches d) between a-c, makes it less likely that she'll enjoy her running,
which makes it less likely that she'll stay with it long enough to enjoy the benefits that got
her started on it.

Posture is one of my major form points (surprise). It is easy to describe and demonstrate what is
better and typically easy to adopt the better form. On the other hand, don't pursue your whole
list all at once. Two sides to that. One is, many of the things (hips, elbows) are liable to cure
themselves after she starts to get the major item (upright posture) under control. The other is,
nobody (beginner or elite) can think about multiple form items at the same time. The more
experienced runner will just ignore you, and the beginner will get confused and frustrated.
Neither case accomplishes your coaching objective.

Reminds me of a different point, for which I'll start a separate thread -- "Coaching beginners"
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this
great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more
abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

>> In addition to assistant coaching for a local running group, I've been getting folks at work
>> to run with me. This week, I've been running with Gabby, the company president's daughter,
>> who works upstairs.
>>
>> Gabby is about 5'4", nice figure, reasonably good shape. She wants to lose about 15-20
>> pounds and tone up. IMHO, 15 pounds is about the most she should lose. She has curvy hips
>> and moderate build. The world already has enough twiggy women in it.
>>
>> She's a very headstrong person, likes to overdo everything. But she's also personable and
>> open to advice - if only just a little bit of advice. Since she's a beginner, I got her to
>> toss out the "run every single day, lose weight fast" approach in favor of the "run every
>> other day, weight train in between" approach.

Ass-kissers are disgusting - that what you are my freend

In article <[email protected]>, wild <[email protected]> wrote:

> >> In addition to assistant coaching for a local running group, I've been getting folks at work
> >> to run with me. This week, I've been running with Gabby, the company president's daughter,
> >> who works upstairs.
> >>
> >> Gabby is about 5'4", nice figure, reasonably good shape. She wants to lose about 15-20
> >> pounds and tone up. IMHO, 15 pounds is about the most she should lose. She has curvy hips
> >> and moderate build. The world already has enough twiggy women in it.
> >>
> >> She's a very headstrong person, likes to overdo everything. But she's also personable and
> >> open to advice - if only just a little bit of advice. Since she's a beginner, I got her to
> >> toss out the "run every single day, lose weight fast" approach in favor of the "run every
> >> other day, weight train in between" approach.
>
> Ass-kissers are disgusting - that what you are my freend

Better than being illiterate.

"Cam Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, wild <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >> In addition to assistant coaching for a local running group, I've been getting folks at work
> > >> to run with me. This week, I've been running with Gabby, the company president's daughter,
> > >> who works upstairs.
> > >>
> > >> Gabby is about 5'4", nice figure, reasonably good shape. She wants to lose about 15-20 pounds
> > >> and tone up. IMHO, 15 pounds is about the most she should lose. She has curvy hips and
> > >> moderate build. The world already has enough twiggy women in it.
> > >>
> > >> She's a very headstrong person, likes to overdo everything. But she's also personable and
> > >> open to advice - if only just a little bit of advice. Since she's a beginner, I got her to
> > >> toss out the "run every single day, lose weight fast" approach in favor of the "run every
> > >> other day, weight train in between" approach.
> >
> > Ass-kissers are disgusting - that what you are my freend
>
> Better than being illiterate.

Or Canadian?

In article <[email protected]>, Cam Wilson wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,

>> Yes, but if they end up quitting because some idiot always tells them "you're doing it wrong",
>> and it destroys their enjoyment to the point that it just proves to be an exercise in
>> frustration, then maybe it's not a step in the right direction.
>
> hey, who's calling who an idiot?!
>
> i don't think Citizen Ted's intention is to brow-beat his student constantly for poor form, just
> to gently encourage her to practise some good form. gently... occasionally. and as you say, maybe
> let it go most of the time, if there are no bad side-effects.

Right. I think the difficulty is that constantly applying a conscious effort to "work on form" is
extremely stressful. Most runners do not associate the whole time during their training, and
beginners are not any better than experienced runners at withstanding the psychological stress of
associating.

So IMO a better approach is to have short sessions that address technique -- can address it directly
or indirectly, most beginners will not mind running "properly" for a 5 minute "technique session".

>> It's only a step in the right direction if you can get them to internalise your good advice.
>
> and that's where the psychologist/teacher in us would come in handy. to assess the runner's needs
> and goals and to tailor the instruction to those things.

Not a psychologist, but I think pushing gently is important, and not expecting instant results is
even more important. The coach needs to be more patient than the student. I think even if the
student is trying to cooperate, it's going to be difficult for them to maintain good form.

> not assuming, but since Ted sees a lot of room for improvement, then at least getting the
> student to TRY to hold good form is better than trying to enforce totally perfect technique all
> of the time.

Possibly. In practice, I don't think it's practical for a runner to constantly think about their
form for the duration of a run. The only time I think about my form is during the last 1/3 of a
race, and that is pretty stressful.

> like you say, this would only lead to an ex-runner. agreed that speedwork helps, but that's not
> something that a total beginner needs.

Doesn't hurt though, as long as it's kept in proportion with the base work.

> nice chattin',

Yep.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
> Right. I think the difficulty is that constantly applying a conscious effort to "work on form" is
> extremely stressful. Most runners do not associate the whole time during their training, and
> beginners are not any better than experienced runners at withstanding the psychological stress of
> associating.
>
> So IMO a better approach is to have short sessions that address technique -- can address it
> directly or indirectly, most beginners will not mind running "properly" for a 5 minute "technique
> session".
>

That's one of the reasons why I suggested hill running on rolling hills. It sorta enforces form on
its own without having to think about it - and my hills only last a minute or two in most cases
before similar amount of down before next hill, but the effect on form carries over for the rest of
the week, esp. the next session. Admittedly after I posted, I remembered that the hills that I use
for hill workouts (no more than once every 2 weeks) are about 10-20% slope, and my long runs have
about half as many hills, same duration, at about 5-10% slope with an occasional steep stretch. It's
the steeper ones that do the most for me, and depending on where they are running, they may not have
hills like that convenient. But she would definitely need to work up to them, esp. if she has any
tightness in back of legs, such as AT. BUT I did remember to not suggest snowshoe running, as I had
a feeling this wasn't the appropriate time of year for that type of form work

I do other drills the other times, but hold the visual image of the hills.

With me on the hills, I can see better *why* certain things are better form. And it's easier for me
to work toward something if I understand *why* - rather than someone *telling* me that's what's
good for me.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope