Frame size

Billsworld · Mar 13, 2006

In looking at the huge drop in seat height and bar height on what the pros ride , I am coming to the conclusion that my frame is too big. I am guessing that the huge drop is for aero position. If I put my seat where I can spin the best and drop the bars to the lowest spot, the difference is only 3-4 inches. Looks like Gideon Massies bike is about 10-12" I am riding a 57 with a total inseam of 34". Are my conclusions about the drop on the pros bike correct?

Meek One · Mar 13, 2006

Billsworld said:
In looking at the huge drop in seat height and bar height on what the pros ride , I am coming to the conclusion that my frame is too big. I am guessing that the huge drop is for aero position. If I put my seat where I can spin the best and drop the bars to the lowest spot, the difference is only 3-4 inches. Looks like Gideon Massies bike is about 10-12" I am riding a 57 with a total inseam of 34". Are my conclusions about the drop on the pros bike correct?

Gideon does have a crazy drop, but for you a 57 with a 34" seems right on. Maybe your back isn't flexible enough (?). If I recall though you are riding a standard type of Bianchi Pista frame, while Gideon's Look (?) may be more of a compact geometry which would account for the frame looking smaller and more seatpost...

Billsworld · Mar 13, 2006

Meek One said:
Gideon does have a crazy drop, but for you a 57 with a 34" seems right on. Maybe your back isn't flexible enough (?). If I recall though you are riding a standard type of Bianchi Pista frame, while Gideon's Look (?) may be more of a compact geometry which would account for the frame looking smaller and more seatpost...

Low back is very flexable. I can put my head between my knees with straight legs....ok no jokes. I have noticed on analytical cycling that frontal area is a real bad thing for speed. I am already ......challenged in that area, I just want to minimize it if I can. Seems like the pros are reaching down rather than forward?

WarrenG · Mar 14, 2006

Billsworld said:
Low back is very flexable. I can put my head between my knees with straight legs....ok no jokes. I have noticed on analytical cycling that frontal area is a real bad thing for speed. I am already ......challenged in that area, I just want to minimize it if I can. Seems like the pros are reaching down rather than forward?

Personally, I feel like I have better control with my bars about 4 inches below the saddle instead of more drop. Most of us are not complete specialists in one event or another so a position more or less suited for sprinting and points races can be the best choice. Maybe change the bars an inch or so (flip the stem?) for each of those events.

Frame length could be a big concern and some of the carbon frames tend to be fairly long for their height in an attempt to maximize stiffness while still being somewhat comfortable.

Frontal area is important, but the position that allows you to ride the fastest for the duration of the event is the top priority.

Billsworld · Mar 14, 2006

WarrenG said:
Personally, I feel like I have better control with my bars about 4 inches below the saddle instead of more drop. Most of us are not complete specialists in one event or another so a position more or less suited for sprinting and points races can be the best choice. Maybe change the bars an inch or so (flip the stem?) for each of those events.

Frame length could be a big concern and some of the carbon frames tend to be fairly long for their height in an attempt to maximize stiffness while still being somewhat comfortable.

Frontal area is important, but the position that allows you to ride the fastest for the duration of the event is the top priority.

I was thinking a smaller frame with a high seat would allow me to get the seat height right and then adjust the stem for comfort. I ride those old fasion track bars that the grips are where the top of the wheel is. Maybe I am making more of this than I ought to. Just snagged a corima disc off ebay.

Hypnospin · Mar 18, 2006

raise these things up too high, and ya risk snappin'. or at least a lot of spooky flex. for me, riding a 56 to 57, ~4.5 inches of drop are ideal. the smaller frame will limit top tube length as well.

also, the rear can dance around a bit if too low up front, but then this can depend on finesse too, though. something a sprinter may not always display...

Billsworld said:
I was thinking a smaller frame with a high seat would allow me to get the seat height right and then adjust the stem for comfort. I ride those old fasion track bars that the grips are where the top of the wheel is. Maybe I am making more of this than I ought to. Just snagged a corima disc off ebay.

Billsworld · Mar 19, 2006

Hypnospin said:
raise these things up too high, and ya risk snappin'. or at least a lot of spooky flex. for me, riding a 56 to 57, ~4.5 inches of drop are ideal. the smaller frame will limit top tube length as well.

also, the rear can dance around a bit if too low up front, but then this can depend on finesse too, though. something a sprinter may not always display...

Thanks,...Are you saying I am outa shape

...

Hypnospin · Mar 30, 2006

oh no, man. we all well know track riders are outta shape, esp. sprinters, you know, do a round or two, then sit down on the infield...heartrate at rest more often than not.

actually, i refer here to finess, a different animal than fitness by and large.

when it comes to sprinting, the back wheel (and front!) can hop 'round, this can be from such as equipment flex capacity being (ouch) exceeded, weight distribution or transfer not localized sufficient to keep both wheels in contact with the track (hence stem height, ect, may be relevent), and/or finess related, as in the application of power may not be "feathered" on enough to prevent the inevitable flopping round from outlandishly high momentary wattage applications, as in a jump.

for a guy who lifts, often and damn heavily, the jump may often be executed far in excess of what is needed to get/stay to the front, (creating the interesting hoppin' as described above) and can result being a limiting factor in the ultimate top speed or length of sprint, as it may well leave less power reserves for the top end/length of sprint. also the "suppleness" of the lifter may need some refinement to provide pedaling in actual circular motions. miles on the road are key from my limited experience.

most roadies, and some trackies will may not fully realize this, but the ones who have an absurd overkill in the momentary power department will give a knowing nod.

sorry i can't help it if i touched a nerve there, "trackie", but if real thanks are what you want, revisit the soapbox.

"hey trackie, having trouble using the brakes there?"
-harangue heard whilst in the throes of pack manuevering during the local technical crit, open masters racin', dist. 5.

Billsworld said:
Thanks,...Are you saying I am outa shape ...

Billsworld · Mar 30, 2006

Hypnospin said:
oh no, man. we all well know track riders are outta shape, esp. sprinters, you know, do a round or two, then sit down on the infield...heartrate at rest more often than not.

actually, i refer here to finess, a different animal than fitness by and large.

when it comes to sprinting, the back wheel (and front!) can hop 'round, this can be from such as equipment flex capacity being (ouch) exceeded, weight distribution or transfer not localized sufficient to keep both wheels in contact with the track (hence stem height, ect, may be relevent), and/or finess related, as in the application of power may not be "feathered" on enough to prevent the inevitable flopping round from outlandishly high momentary wattage applications, as in a jump.

for a guy who lifts, often and damn heavily, the jump may often be executed far in excess of what is needed to get/stay to the front, (creating the interesting hoppin' as described above) and can result being a limiting factor in the ultimate top speed or length of sprint, as it may well leave less power reserves for the top end/length of sprint. also the "suppleness" of the lifter may need some refinement to provide pedaling in actual circular motions. miles on the road are key from my limited experience.

most roadies, and some trackies will may not fully realize this, but the ones who have an absurd overkill in the momentary power department will give a knowing nod.

sorry i can't help it if i touched a nerve there, "trackie", but if real thanks are what you want, revisit the soapbox.

"hey trackie, having trouble using the brakes there?"
-harangue heard whilst in the throes of pack manuevering during the local technical crit, open masters racin', dist. 5.

I am just learning, not a real trackie yet. I do still have that bad habbit of pulling the front wheels up at 30 mph. Brakes are for girls. Hows your team doing. Hope they gave you a fast new ride

Hypnospin · Mar 31, 2006

world, my team is ferocious. and they now have a more open membership than ever...
anyway, the main thrust has always been district championship age group racing. there are some true fanatics on this team, sometimes i don't know how or why i'm on it with them. but i do love to race, and have been at it for a while.
www.mggracingteam.org

as for my ride, well i just built my new one. of course this was concurrent with the team issue bikes purchase, think trek madone for (can't say)
oh, well.

they do offer many reimbursments, nat level testing and coaching, and discount everything. plus lots of team volunteer activities.

Billsworld said:
I am just learning, not a real trackie yet. I do still have that bad habbit of pulling the front wheels up at 30 mph. Brakes are for girls. Hows your team doing. Hope they gave you a fast new ride

WarrenG · Mar 31, 2006

Hypnospin said:
world, my team is ferocious. and they now have a more open membership than ever...
anyway, the main thrust has always been district championship age group racing. there are some true fanatics on this team, sometimes i don't know how or why i'm on it with them. but i do love to race, and have been at it for a while.
www.mggracingteam.org

as for my ride, well i just built my new one. of course this was concurrent with the team issue bikes purchase, think trek madone for (can't say)
oh, well.

they do offer many reimbursments, nat level testing and coaching, and discount everything. plus lots of team volunteer activities.

Hmmm, your team (Mako) isn't exactly known for top-level masters, and only a few here and there who race track, and none above Cat 3. I can't think of any Mako riders who are winning the open masters races in NorCal. A little bit of embelishment there? Definitely some nice people though and some who give back plenty to the sport. And who doesn't like Galaxy Granola?!

-Warren (Alto Velo)

Hypnospin · Mar 31, 2006

ah, anyone can do a web search and find some results from mako. not hard.
p.s i was on
alto velo in '93!
only team i ever won races on...so far.

WarrenG said:
Hmmm, your team (Mako) isn't exactly known for top-level masters, and only a few here and there who race track, and none above Cat 3. I can't think of any Mako riders who are winning the open masters races in NorCal. A little bit of embelishment there? Definitely some nice people though and some who give back plenty to the sport. And who doesn't like Galaxy Granola?!

-Warren (Alto Velo)

rooman · May 6, 2006

IMHO most elite track bikes are made to the manufacturer's perceived formula and not the riders needs...eg: look at BT, limited sizes, short wheel base, a little ( but heavy bike) hard for large riders to manage and way too short in the wheelbase for any rider over 5'10" to not hunch severely and stress the back, kneck and knees, all affecting performance in the name of aerodynamics and team politics ( especially for the Australian Team).

again IMHO, the hierachy of priority in Track racing is:

it is the rider that matters and what the rider is a capable of first and foremost, ( providing the correct gearing is selected for the event and the rider's capability) , importantly,
then it is the moving parts that create drag (wheels/tires),
then it is the moving/rotating parts that create friction ( bottom brackets, hubs),
then it is lateral movement from the flex in the wheel spokes or rims, or lack of flex in the case of discs which can be slippery and skid around on the wrong frame size, and
finally it is the bike frame design for aerodynamics, weight, flex and strength.

and all this can be tossed out the window by a frame that is too short, that tosses itself sideways losing hundredths with every twitch and slip and slide...

I suggest a correctly fitted bike frame with a proper wheelbase with correct chainstay length, head angle, seatpost height and angle and top tube length, suited to the riders physiology will outperform any short whippy so called "hi-tech" elite offering from the makers of today (are paying big money to teams and coaches to get their product in the public eye...)

riders of those beasts, who have achieved at elite level, do it in spite of the ill fitting bike, not because of it...and would have done it easier, quicker and with less long term ill effects on their bodies if they had a bike that fitted them, rather than one they had to try to adapt to.... that's MHO

I know there are a lot of BT riders out there , having paid their money, thinking that solves all their ills on the track...I guess by now you've found out ... it didnt...., just like carbon bikes for the general populace, they dont help you ride any better, more comfortably or quicker...you achieve a lot more by dropping 10 kilos from the wasteline than 500 grams off a frame, especially when the frame may fail without notice....

Tradition and classic approaches have a large part to play in cycling, today and shouldnt be foregotten for new hi-tech approaches, sure research and development in materials and design is essential, but not necessarily better just because it is new or "different".

Again IMHO, it is the rider's fit that is most important and the bike must be made to translate that physiology and aspiration into a mechanism that harnesses and delivers.

( here endeth my annual rant on fit and mass produced bikes)

Billsworld · May 11, 2006

rooman said:
IMHO most elite track bikes are made to the manufacturer's perceived formula and not the riders needs...eg: look at BT, limited sizes, short wheel base, a little ( but heavy bike) hard for large riders to manage and way too short in the wheelbase for any rider over 5'10" to not hunch severely and stress the back, kneck and knees, all affecting performance in the name of aerodynamics and team politics ( especially for the Australian Team).

again IMHO, the hierachy of priority in Track racing is:

it is the rider that matters and what the rider is a capable of first and foremost, ( providing the correct gearing is selected for the event and the rider's capability) , importantly,

then it is the moving parts that create drag (wheels/tires),

then it is the moving/rotating parts that create friction ( bottom brackets, hubs),

then it is lateral movement from the flex in the wheel spokes or rims, or lack of flex in the case of discs which can be slippery and skid around on the wrong frame size, and

finally it is the bike frame design for aerodynamics, weight, flex and strength.

and all this can be tossed out the window by a frame that is too short, that tosses itself sideways losing hundredths with every twitch and slip and slide...

I suggest a correctly fitted bike frame with a proper wheelbase with correct chainstay length, head angle, seatpost height and angle and top tube length, suited to the riders physiology will outperform any short whippy so called "hi-tech" elite offering from the makers of today (are paying big money to teams and coaches to get their product in the public eye...)

riders of those beasts, who have achieved at elite level, do it in spite of the ill fitting bike, not because of it...and would have done it easier, quicker and with less long term ill effects on their bodies if they had a bike that fitted them, rather than one they had to try to adapt to.... that's MHO

I know there are a lot of BT riders out there , having paid their money, thinking that solves all their ills on the track...I guess by now you've found out ... it didnt...., just like carbon bikes for the general populace, they dont help you ride any better, more comfortably or quicker...you achieve a lot more by dropping 10 kilos from the wasteline than 500 grams off a frame, especially when the frame may fail without notice....

Tradition and classic approaches have a large part to play in cycling, today and shouldnt be foregotten for new hi-tech approaches, sure research and development in materials and design is essential, but not necessarily better just because it is new or "different".

Again IMHO, it is the rider's fit that is most important and the bike must be made to translate that physiology and aspiration into a mechanism that harnesses and delivers.

( here endeth my annual rant on fit and mass produced bikes)

Geeze, is aluminum ok

rooman · May 11, 2006

Billsworld said:
Geeze, is aluminum ok

Sheldon's got the drum on materials here:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

Alu. just wont last as long if heavily stressed in use, but generally most track bikes outlive the riding life of their owners ...so what the heck, if Alu is your fancy, read Sheldon and decide which frameset suits you and your pocket...

whatever...enjoy the ride...that's what matters in the end!

Billsworld · May 12, 2006

rooman said:
Sheldon's got the drum on materials here:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

Alu. just wont last as long if heavily stressed in use, but generally most track bikes outlive the riding life of their owners ...so what the heck, if Alu is your fancy, read Sheldon and decide which frameset suits you and your pocket...

whatever...enjoy the ride...that's what matters in the end!

Well, I bought a Bianchi Pista Concept with Corima carbon fiber wheels, and I am putting on my speedplays. I dont know where that falls on the production bike scale, but it seems like a straightforward mid range combo..

rooman · May 12, 2006

Billsworld said:
Well, I bought a Bianchi Pista Concept with Corima carbon fiber wheels, and I am putting on my speedplays. I dont know where that falls on the production bike scale, but it seems like a straightforward mid range combo..

good basic frame...will serve you well (if it fits)...wheels are super...I'd toss speedplays and any clip-in cleats for track (other than older style SPDs), and prefer to use Superbe Pro pedals, Christophe toe clips and sprint double leather straps with buttons...a nice pair of leather Duegi wooden sole shoes and wedges and woohoo...crank out the power....

Billsworld · May 13, 2006

rooman said:
good basic frame...will serve you well (if it fits)...wheels are super...I'd toss speedplays and any clip-in cleats for track (other than older style SPDs), and prefer to use Superbe Pro pedals, Christophe toe clips and sprint double leather straps with buttons...a nice pair of leather Duegi wooden sole shoes and wedges and woohoo...crank out the power....

Why not the speedplays. ? I havnt pulled out sprintg hard

rooman · May 13, 2006

Billsworld said:
Why not the speedplays. ? I havnt pulled out sprintg hard

then you are not sprinting hard enough...

its personal choice for you perhaps, but I will never use any cleats for track...there is no substitute to deliver power over firm strong toe clips and straps...nadda.

maybe its an Aussie thing, but my mentors ( world record holders on track and world champions and Olympic champions) all used toeclips and many tried different styles of cleats as they were released and all failed, with one exception, if you were going to use anything, the early SPD-R, only ones that can crank up tight...but good ones are hard to get and rare nowadays.

Toe clips & straps for track...only way to max your output safely.

Billsworld · May 13, 2006

rooman said:
then you are not sprinting hard enough...

its personal choice for you perhaps, but I will never use any cleats for track...there is no substitute to deliver power over firm strong toe clips and straps...nadda.

maybe its an Aussie thing, but my mentors ( world record holders on track and world champions and Olympic champions) all used toeclips and many tried different styles of cleats as they were released and all failed, with one exception, if you were going to use anything, the early SPD-R, only ones that can crank up tight...but good ones are hard to get and rare nowadays.

Toe clips & straps for track...only way to max your output safely.

Well I am a sucker for anything that says more power

Frame size

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