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I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims - Page 3

post #31 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

Compuser authoritatively asserted, being omniscient:

> As if ANY amount of funding/work/whatever manmade
> thing you can think of---would have made even the
> _slightest_ difference in the outcome.


You, sir, seriously misunderestimate the power of human ingenuity.
Hell, we could build the Great Wall of China and the pyramids of Egypt
on the backs of humans alone.

Have you seen the extent of the Big Dig?

App
post #32 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

me@privacy.net wrote:
> The Wogster wrote:
>
>> Bill H. wrote:
>>
>>> The biggest thing I don't understand is why people would stay in town
>>> when a hurricane is coming. Most people have no idea how dangerous
>>> these things can be.
>>>
>>> I cleaned up my sister's house in Navarre, FL after Hurricane Ivan and
>>> a huge tree had been ripped out of her back yard and fell over. She
>>> stayed at home and it could very well have landed on her house and
>>> killed her and her daughter. I just don't understand why people
>>> wouldn't leave. Some people may be poor, of course, and don't have a
>>> car or can't get their family out, but a lot more people stayed in the
>>> area than should have.
>>>

>>
>> Not having a car, is no reason why the city could not get people out,
>> they probably did not have sufficient disaster planning, and the
>> people who should have been in charge were the first to leave.
>>
>> Here are some examples, transit buses, load them up and move them out,
>> even if it means stuffing people in, you can get over 100 people in a
>> city bus, especially if you limit what they can carry. Between city
>> transit buses school board buses, and commercial operators, they
>> should have had sufficient vehicles to clear everyone out.

>
>
> Certainly makes more sense than letting them stay in their parking lots
> where they would certainly be swamped, and useless. Even the cops
> didn't have the intelligence to move their cars. Just pee-poor planning.
>


Seems like the evacuation plan was "every man for himself". There is a
good thing in all of this though, a lot of cities on the East Coast,
will be looking at their own evacuation plans, which should consider
many things, including how fast a city can be cleared based on the
highways and roads in the area. How many people will be able to leave
by car, and how to get others out.

W
post #33 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

Frank K wrote:
> I don't condone looting. But I also don't condone lack of charity, nor
> lack of empathy.


I think you have hit on jaba's entire problem.

There was a shrink who spent a great deal of time with the top
officials tried at Neurimburg (sp) after the war. Try as he might, he
could only find one small link between them all. His conclusion: They
all lacked any sense of empathy for their victims.

Austin
post #34 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

In article <XPORe.11561$p%3.45871@typhoon.sonic.net>, SMS
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>appkiller wrote:
>> <snippage of jaba the hut's rantings>
>>
>> Ya know, they were working to create a much more storm surge/flood-safe
>> New Orleans until Bushco cut the funding for it.

>
>Very true. They just mentioned that today. In 2001, he cut the funding
>for the Army Corps of Engineers work on protecting New Orleans. You reap
>what you sow.

So, how about Eisenhower and his reticence to fund things? I know
of at least one Corp of Engineers plan that reaches back to the 50s.


--
Among the leading competitors for the title of
"World's Oldest Profession" must surely be rescue workers.
There can be little doubt that when men lived in caves, children got
their hands caught in crevices, families became trapped under
mudslides and flash floods wiped out dwellings...."
-Jack Zusman, M.D.
post #35 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

In article <nrYRe.10398$884.855077@news20.bellglobal.com>, The
Wogster <wogsterca@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>me@privacy.net wrote:


>Seems like the evacuation plan was "every man for himself". There is a
>good thing in all of this though, a lot of cities on the East Coast,
>will be looking at their own evacuation plans, which should consider
>many things, including how fast a city can be cleared based on the
>highways and roads in the area. How many people will be able to leave
>by car, and how to get others out.
>

The keystone for generations of planners in NO has been to move
people to the Dome. It has been practiced, gamed, discussed, and
cussed for years. They sent busses around to get people. The problem
(and hindsight is always better than 20/20) is that no one seems to
have the next step and asked what would happen if the Dome became
uninhabitable.

--
Among the leading competitors for the title of
"World's Oldest Profession" must surely be rescue workers.
There can be little doubt that when men lived in caves, children got
their hands caught in crevices, families became trapped under
mudslides and flash floods wiped out dwellings...."
-Jack Zusman, M.D.
post #36 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article <nrYRe.10398$884.855077@news20.bellglobal.com>, The
> Wogster <wogsterca@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>me@privacy.net wrote:

>
>
>>Seems like the evacuation plan was "every man for himself". There is a
>>good thing in all of this though, a lot of cities on the East Coast,
>>will be looking at their own evacuation plans, which should consider
>>many things, including how fast a city can be cleared based on the
>>highways and roads in the area. How many people will be able to leave
>>by car, and how to get others out.
>>

>
> The keystone for generations of planners in NO has been to move
> people to the Dome. It has been practiced, gamed, discussed, and
> cussed for years. They sent busses around to get people. The problem
> (and hindsight is always better than 20/20) is that no one seems to
> have the next step and asked what would happen if the Dome became
> uninhabitable.
>


Which it would, in a very short period of time, any time you put a large
group of people in a small confined space, for an extended period of
time, you will end up with problems. Guess they also didn't account for
not being able to evacuate the Dome because the streets were under water
for an extended period.

W
post #37 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

In article <RRZRe.10506$884.865355@news20.bellglobal.com>, The
Wogster <wogsterca@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>Which it would, in a very short period of time, any time you put a large
>group of people in a small confined space, for an extended period of
>time, you will end up with problems. Guess they also didn't account for
>not being able to evacuate the Dome because the streets were under water
>for an extended period.
>

Probably. As has been noted in many other contexts, people
sometimes become wedded to their ideas much tighter than their
spouses (g).
The other thing to remember, is that under the Constitution and
disaster laws, the Feds are a subsidiary of the State. All Guard
units, no matter which state they are from, are AUTOMATICALLY
chopped to the command and control of the local governor. Same with
the FEMA types. They can only do what the locals will let them.

--
Among the leading competitors for the title of
"World's Oldest Profession" must surely be rescue workers.
There can be little doubt that when men lived in caves, children got
their hands caught in crevices, families became trapped under
mudslides and flash floods wiped out dwellings...."
-Jack Zusman, M.D.
post #38 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

jabario@backpacker.com wrote in news:1125577559.997551.319210
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

> All those losers whining about "where's the government?", "We got
> nothing" "they leaving us here to die" and such are starting to really
> piss me off. Our society has created a whole population of people who
> rely on the government for all needs- housing, food, medical care.
> That are unable to fend for themselves in any way hurricane or not.
> Now they must really be suffering, almost like a domestic pet that
> suddenly finds itself living in the wild.
> First of all you live in an area BELOW sea level-not smart. Then its an
> area that is subject to hurricanes and storms. Then word of an
> impending hurricane comes out and you do not stock up and prepare. Why?
> Because you have no responsibility for your own life. The gov't has
> always taken care of you even when you refused to stay in school and
> get a job. They support you after popping out numerous out-of-wedlock
> babies. They take care of you in prison when you refuse to follow
> society's rules. Adversity is when the American Spirit rises to the
> top. Unfortunately you still choose to take by looting and causing
> further damage to your countrymen. I just had to rant.
>


I am saddened to see this great discussion eclipsed by all of the trolling
and lack of compassion of some people for their fellow man. Though I do
agree with the your point for the most part you fail to keep in mind that
there really are some people who are incapable of fending for themselves.

And it is "Human Spirit", not "American Spirit". What makes this country go
wonderful is that we care for those that are suffering and we offer
humanitarian aid to those that need it to the best of our abilities. The
key word there is humanitarian, not American.

And the bigot who posted "How very Christian!!" needs to pull there head
out of their ass and realize a lot of what keeps this country a good place
to live are the Christian overtones in our society. They may do a little
harm when taken to extremes but more often than not Christians have been an
extremely beneficial group for society. This country was founded on
Christian morals and ethics and a large portion of our greatest
accomplishments as a society were and still are influenced by Christianity
and those that follow its theological message.

I dare the self-loving Satanist or Anarchist to say the same thing.

And just for the record, I am not a Fundie Christian or a Bush supporter.

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post #39 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

In article <df9tt5$qbp$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, "Mike McKinley"
<mpmck@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>"Kurt Ullman" <kurtullman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:ec_Re.5154$Wd7.412@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> The other thing to remember, is that under the Constitution and
>> disaster laws, the Feds are a subsidiary of the State. All Guard
>> units, no matter which state they are from, are AUTOMATICALLY
>> chopped to the command and control of the local governor. Same with
>> the FEMA types. They can only do what the locals will let them.

>
> According to the Constitution, only the Congress, not the President, has
>the sole power to declare war, however that has been conveniently
>sidestepped continually during the latter half of the 20th Century.
> Your rationale is unconvincing.

BZZT. Thanks for playing, but the Constitution also states that
Congress has the power to "make all laws which shall be necessary
and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers". That
certainly covers the War Power Act. .
Of course the most interesting part of the War Powers Act is
that no one has actually had the guts to put it in front of the
courts. I think all sides are afraid of what might happen and both
might lose a way to take umbrage when the Pres from other side tries
to do something.

--
Among the leading competitors for the title of
"World's Oldest Profession" must surely be rescue workers.
There can be little doubt that when men lived in caves, children got
their hands caught in crevices, families became trapped under
mudslides and flash floods wiped out dwellings...."
-Jack Zusman, M.D.
post #40 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

"Bill Sornson" <sornospamni@san.rr.nocomspam> wrote in message
news:AqRRe.58$Cg.45@tornado.socal.rr.com...
> frkrygow@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Bob the Cow wrote:
>>
>>> And if
>>> Bush had approved it, and the hurricane come a year later after the
>>> stuff was all installed, the Bush-haters would have vilified him for
>>> wasting all the gummint's money on the whiz-bang high-tech pumping
>>> stations. Even if Halliburton hadn't installed them.

>>
>> :-) As if there would be a chance Halliburton wouldn't get the job!

>
> As usual, Frank misses the point.


Frank can defend himself. But there's a general set of points here:
1. In any disaster, people will play politics.
Disaster plans are plans made by committees (of politicians/administrators
who often don't believe they will ever have to carry them out). It's hard
to avoid "rosy scenarios" in this type of thinking, such as the revelation
today that New Orleans' plans assumed the levees would hold (they might be
topped by water, but wouldn't break). Since they have several breaks, it's
pretty obvious this reasoning was over-optimistic. But, to avoid being
blamed yourself you have to find somebody else to blame.

On a different thread, another poster wants to blame pre-World War I
"engineer and inventor A.
Baldwin Wood [for his] enacted his ambitious plan to drain the city,
including large
pumps of his own design which are still used". This approach safely blames
the dead, who may be more mobile in New Orleans right now if the coffins are
floating again, but still dead and unlikely to talk back. I predict a lot of
blaming of the dead. This will be Huey Long's fault before the end of
September.

2. Today, GW is seemingly abandoning his own administration by declaring
"the results are not acceptable" and pledging to whip things into shape. No
need for anybody to defend FEMA when the head guy is hanging them out to
dry.

3. If Katrina had hit New Orleans during the year 1999 (i.e. after several
years of the Clinton administration) would the results have been different?
Certainly the same levees would have likely failed in the same way. Would
FEMA have responded more rapidly? I seem to remember a lot of complaints
about FEMA over my adult life, so I'm not sure FEMA would have done better.

4. You can't prepare for everything. But it seems remarkable to think that
we are unprepared to deliver emergency supplies for several days after a
disaster for which we had a few days warning. That, to me, is the scary
part. I would have thought we would have been able to helicopter in abundant
food and water beginning Tuesday, along with the military force necessary to
dole it out reasonably fairly.

We can't protect against all disasters, since we can't even begin to list
all possible disasters. But we should be able to rapidly provide basic stuff
almost anywhere in the country quickly.

5. Some of the statements of various politicians seem misleading in the
extreme. For example, when Bush was interviewed by Diane Sawyer, he made a
big deal out of opening up the petroleum reserves. Bush, as a Texas oilman,
would surely be aware that the biggest short term problem is lack of
refinery / port / pipeline capacity. Bush surely isn't alone in the
misleading statement category, but I'm tired and will let other people
nominate their favorites.
post #41 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

In article <c81Se.7958$sF6.4020@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net>, "Mike
Kruger" <MikeKr@mousepotato.com> wrote:

>4. You can't prepare for everything. But it seems remarkable to think that
>we are unprepared to deliver emergency supplies for several days after a
>disaster for which we had a few days warning. That, to me, is the scary
>part. I would have thought we would have been able to helicopter in abundant
>food and water beginning Tuesday, along with the military force necessary to
>dole it out reasonably fairly.
>

There were within hours around 10,000 troops (in addition to
local cops, etc) in the area. According to the in-place disaster
plans. There were 1700 trucks with MREs, water, etc. sitting in the
staging area and moved in, a similar number being loaded up for the
second influx, there were 14 urban search and rescue teams, 20+
disaster medical units, Coasties had choppers in the air from as far
away as Cape Cod before the first day was out. There was a ton of
stuff there from the feds and that did not include the non-gov units
like ARC and Sal Army.



>We can't protect against all disasters, since we can't even begin to list
>all possible disasters. But we should be able to rapidly provide basic stuff
>almost anywhere in the country quickly.


We did, to extent that the plans call for. When the plans are
overwhelmed, you can't just miraculously move people into the area
by beaming them in. You have to figure out what you need, find the
people with those skills, get them to a staging area, get them
equipt (if they aren't going to be self-sufficient for an extended
period of time all you have done is add refugees dressed in green),
you have find and bring in the airlift or sea lift or ground lift
capacity to get them and their stuff where it needs to go. You have
to find a place to put up their base camp, etc.
Within 7 days just the military and Guard (not including the
other non-gov and FEMA assets like the SAR and medical teams) there
will be 6 Navy ships on site, with more on the way, over 30,000
troops directly on the ground as of now with more on the way.
You also have to remember that isn't JUST NO, although you
would hardly know it from the others. The disaster areas are more
than 90,000 square miles involving over 5 million people.
BTW: Did I mention that all of the Guard units, under federal
law and the Constitution are automatically put under the command and
control of the governor and the Pres is not involved. The gov could
have called the Guard into the Dome any time he wanted to so that
LZs could be established (Reuters has pictures of choppers trying to
land at the Dome but couldn't because of the crush of people). Might
have also been useful in crowd control elsewhere in the complex.
NO basically turns on two problems that went against all
assumptions that the plans were built on. One is that the Dome would
be available as a large shelter afterwards and that the levess would
hold. Had either not occurred then we wouldn't be having this
conversation. But then as Sun Tsu noted in another context, crisis
plans seldom survive contact with the crisis.
The outcome of all this will be most areas will dust off the
disaster plans, look them over and talk about it. Half will decide
they are cool and put them back, 1/4 will tinker around the edges
and 1/4 will make major changes. All will miss the piece that comes
back to bite them if the excrement ever hits the air circulation
device.


>
>5. Some of the statements of various politicians seem misleading in the
>extreme. For example, when Bush was interviewed by Diane Sawyer, he made a
>big deal out of opening up the petroleum reserves. Bush, as a Texas oilman,
>would surely be aware that the biggest short term problem is lack of
>refinery / port / pipeline capacity. Bush surely isn't alone in the
>misleading statement category, but I'm tired and will let other people
>nominate their favorites.

Yet he was being castigated by some Dems for not doing so
earlier. I acutally had a guy on another thread suggest that he
should have done something even if meant nothing just to placate
people.

--
Among the leading competitors for the title of
"World's Oldest Profession" must surely be rescue workers.
There can be little doubt that when men lived in caves, children got
their hands caught in crevices, families became trapped under
mudslides and flash floods wiped out dwellings...."
-Jack Zusman, M.D.
post #42 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

In article <9c49fd.i6k1.ln@bud.garden.local>,
Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <df8mpt$7jo$2@rumours.uwaterloo.ca>,
>dj3vande@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Dave Vandervies) writes:
>
>> The only ones
>> that shouldn't have added "as fast as can be done without stepping on
>> each others' toes" are government and public safety workers managing
>> the evacuation, but even there, they should be bringing up the rear,
>> not sticking around after everybody else is gone.

>
>I suspect they were among the first to leave.


That's the impression I get from what I've heard, and is an indicator
of Serious Problems no matter what else is going on.

But what I was addressing here was the claim that not everybody can
"just leave their job to evacuate". That claim doesn't hold up if
there's a cat 5 hurricane on the way.


dave

--
Dave Vandervies dj3vande@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
I don't want to have to supply a tool that turns your 100 lines of html into
my 10 lines of text. Let's do it the other way around.
--Alan Balmer in comp.lang.c
post #43 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

In article <4328b49e.3953146@supernews.seanet.com>,
fairwater@gmail.com (Derek Lyons) wrote:
>SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>>appkiller wrote:
>>> <snippage of jaba the hut's rantings>
>>>
>>> Ya know, they were working to create a much more storm surge/flood-safe
>>> New Orleans until Bushco cut the funding for it.

>>
>>Very true. They just mentioned that today. In 2001, he cut the funding
>>for the Army Corps of Engineers work on protecting New Orleans. You reap
>>what you sow.

>
>And Clinton cut it 1995, 1996, 1997, and 2000. Bush is reaping what
>*he* sowed as well.
>

Somewhere around here I have a study from the Corp of Engineers on
the subject from the mid-50s. It is all Ike's fault (g)

--
I didn't - in spite of ample warnings by sociologists
from large Eastern Universities - foresee the need to have
27" flat-screen television sets available to every family in the
New Orleans city limits as soon as the electricity went out.
That one WAS my bad.
--Richard Galen at www.mullings.com
post #44 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

nothermark wrote:

> >Dumbass, that describes all of America.

>
> No, that describes the politicans who are running the country into the
> ground and th escum that lives off them.


Yeah, the oil and gas companies and the energy-sucking
suburbanites, which describes most Americans.

> There are a lot of folks who
> understand it and don't like it.


And a lot of folks who don't know their ass from a
goddamn hole in the ground, but who are just beginning
to get a rude awakening.

Robert
post #45 of 231

Re: I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

"Kurt Ullman" <kurtullman@yahoo.com> uses as his current e-mail signature:
> --
> I didn't - in spite of ample warnings by sociologists
> from large Eastern Universities - foresee the need to have
> 27" flat-screen television sets available to every family in the
> New Orleans city limits as soon as the electricity went out.
> That one WAS my bad.
> --Richard Galen at www.mullings.com


Love it!
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