McDreamy said:Darkboong,
Why do you hate Israel so much?
McDreamy said:I went through your posts and there is not a single good word on the country.
McDreamy said:Do you believe it and the people there to be so awful?
McDreamy said:Are you from the region?
McDreamy said:Are you anti-semitic?
McDreamy said:If you actually read all of Jonathan Cook's article much of it is conjecture.
McDreamy said:DO NOT believe everything you see or read. Just a little bit of critical thinking. It amazes me the standards that Israel is held to; not the fact that it's held to standards, but that it's held to higher standards than any other country in the world.
McDreamy said:Yet, Israel meets many of these standards.
McDreamy said:Compare Israel to it's neighbors and it sparkle crystal clean in comparison.
McDreamy said:If Israel is so horrible, so mighty, and so all-powerful why has it not wiped Lebanon, Syria, and Iran off the map?
McDreamy said:Restraint.
McDreamy said:Israel is fighting a tactical and calculated war in order to secure itself.
McDreamy said:It sickens me to hear that Israel is overreacting.
McDreamy said:If France suddenly decided to start shooting missles into Great Britain
McDreamy said:Explain to me why?
And where were all the fathers of these children? Oh yeah, they were outside the building firing rockets!It fails on the not shooting children front quite spectacularly.
Oh you mean the farce of a democracy that divides there government according to a census over 30 years old and that actually wields no power, since we know Syria still pulls the strings. Not to mention that they have absolutely no control over the south.What, like Lebanon ?
The infrastructure has been destroyed, but the IDF has been putting only small groups of troops into the area. There is no overwhelming force on the ground.Because Israel's military is not infallable, although it has succesfully destroyed Lebanon in a couple of weeks. Well done, very gentle of you.
Yes, the UNIFIL observation post that had Hezbollah fighters firing rockets from all around it confirmed by one of those UNIFIL soldiers in an email prior to his death. Have you not seen photos of UN flags flying right along side the Hezbollah yellow flags. Oh, and which population was it that attacked UN offices?By attacking UNIFIL observation posts for example. I don't think that you have any idea what kind of feeling that is going to create in Lebanon. Those people are very unlikely to forgive or forget after this particular escapade.
Blah! Too much garbage makes me puke.Throw up, it's not my carpet.
Hah! You can't even get the facts straight of the current situation, or do you just choose to ignore that Hezbollah crossed into Israel against all of international law and against UN resolution 1559 after Israel had unilaterally withdrawn 6 years ago and kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers without provocation.That wouldn't be the same situation, because the rockets came *after* the IDF had already struck Beirut and killed over 20 civillians in Lebanon. It's all ifs and buts, and you can't even get the analogy correct because you won't acknowledge that Israel was the side that dropped the big one on civillians first.
McDreamy said:And where were all the fathers of these children? Oh yeah, they were outside the building firing rockets!
McDreamy said:Oh you mean the farce of a democracy that divides there government according to a census over 30 years old and that actually wields no power, since we know Syria still pulls the strings. Not to mention that they have absolutely no control over the south.
McDreamy said:The infrastructure has been destroyed, but the IDF has been putting only small groups of troops into the area. There is no overwhelming force on the ground.
McDreamy said:Yes, the UNIFIL observation post that had Hezbollah fighters firing rockets from all around it confirmed by one of those UNIFIL soldiers in an email prior to his death.
Reuters said:Twenty-one strikes by IDF forces within 300 meters of the patrol base occurred, as well as 12 artillery rounds that fell within 100 meters of the base, four of which hit the base directly, according to Lute. She noted that the Hezbollah militia did not fire on the base at this time, according to all information available.
Reuters said:Lute noted in her briefing to the council that even after the IDF attack, when the bunker was reduced to rubble, "Firing continued during the rescue operation despite repeated requests to the IDF for an abatement." Some assurances had been given over the phone by Israel while the rescue operation was in progress that rescuers would not be fired upon, a senior UN official said.
McDreamy said:Have you not seen photos of UN flags flying right along side the Hezbollah yellow flags. Oh, and which population was it that attacked UN offices?
McDreamy said:Blah! Too much garbage makes me puke.
McDreamy said:Hah! You can't even get the facts straight of the current situation, or do you just choose to ignore that Hezbollah crossed into Israel against all of
McDreamy said:international law and against UN resolution 1559 after Israel had unilaterally
McDreamy said:withdrawn 6 years ago and
McDreamy said:kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers without provocation.
McDreamy said:I think my head hurts, because it's difficult to explain things to a brick wall.
McDreamy said:Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel, delivered at the Duke University Counter Terrorism
BBC said:The Djulani family donated the organs of their dead son to five people, four of them Israelis, for life-saving transplants.
... SNIP ...
"I donated the organs to save the lives of others, no matter if they were Jews, Christians or Muslims, even though my son was killed by a Jewish settler's bullet," he told The Associated Press news agency.
Middle East Online said:Khatib said the decision to donate his son Ahmed's organs for transplant stemmed from a desire to answer violence with a concrete gesture of peace.
"I have taken this decision because I have a message for the world: that the Palestinian people want peace - for everyone," he said on Sunday.
"We have no problem whether it is an Israeli or a Palestinian (who receives his organs) because it will give them life," said the boy's mother, Ablah al-Khatib.
Ahmed was shot last Wednesday during clashes in the northern West Bank town of Jenin, when Israeli troops mistook the plastic gun he was holding for a real weapon and opened fire.
He was rushed to a local hospital with serious head and stomach wounds, then transferred to hospital in northern Israel where he died on Saturday.
His organs have been transplanted into five Israeli children aged seven months, four, five, 12 and 14 years, as well as a 58-year-old woman.
McDreamy said:To bad the Shaaba farms never belonged to Lebanon, but to Syria. Are you saying the Lebanon is a puppet of Syria...ding ding ding!
McDreamy said:UN resolution 242 has nothing to do with Lebanon, but with pre-1967 borders with Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.
McDreamy said:
Someone like you calling me a bigot is laughable...it's like the pot calling the kettle black.
McDreamy said:Enough, I've realized you can continue to read and believe the junk you read on the internet but at least you should know what things are about.
McDreamy said:Enough is enough. I'm resigned to just say you will believe what you will and I'm not going to convince you otherwise. Go to Israel and then visit Syria, Lebanon, and Iran and maybe you will gain new perspective.
McDreamy said:● And Jonathan Cook, writing in the International Herald Tribune for expressing his understanding and appreciation of Palestinian terrorism as the 'surest way to get their struggle noticed.' (The IHT was also caught altering New York Times articles to make Israel look worse, and Palestinian terrorists look better.)
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/The_Dishonest_Reporting_Awards_2004.asp
Or try camera.org and you'll see Jonathan Cook's true colors.
If you actually read all of Jonathan Cook's article much of it is conjecture.
DO NOT believe everything you see or read. Just a little bit of critical thinking. It amazes me the standards that Israel is held to; not the fact that it's held to standards, but that it's held to higher standards than any other country in the world. Yet, Israel meets many of these standards. By no means do I mean to imply that Israel is perfect, like other countries around the world it has its issues too. Compare Israel to it's neighbors and it sparkle crystal clean in comparison. But Jesus know the history and know the present. People just keep putting out this dribble. As for the current conflict, history will judge. Everyone jumps to conclusions right off the bat. If Israel is so horrible, so mighty, and so all-powerful why has it not wiped Lebanon, Syria, and Iran off the map? Restraint. Israel is fighting a tactical and calculated war in order to secure itself. It sickens me to hear that Israel is overreacting. If France suddenly decided to start shooting missles into Great Britain and crossed over the channel with soldiers and killed some British soldiers would Britain sit still and say, "Please sir may I have another." Or would the U.S. watch their southern border be attacked? No, they would go to full scale war to defend their people and land! Yet Israel is supposed to sit back and pretend everything is okay. Explain to me why?
darkboong said:I wouldn't take the word of a bigot like yourself. Produce hard evidence that all the children's fathers were militants. Presumption of guilt by race is racist.
The government left behind by Israel's 30 years of invasion. Israel made Lebanon what it is today. If Israeli soldiers hadn't been there killing people Hezbollah wouldn't even exist.
No, but the country is practically gutted, and now littered with UXO.
The UNIFIL report makes no mention of firing by Hezbollah around the patrol base in the Khiyam sector. It does mention that they had been fired upon on 14 prior occasions that day. The UNIFIL commander had been in contact with the IDF the entire afternoon asking them to stop shooting them.
As if that wasn't bad enough they shelled the rescue operation.
You and the IDF think that it is OK to shoot unarmed non-combatants. I don't. Why were the IDF so adamant to destroy the position ?
What about it ? Did the crowd kill anyone ? No. Did they shell the UN building for 6 hours ? No. Did they cease and desist with no casualties ? Yes. The IDF kept on attacking until they turned the UN patrol base to rubble, and they shelled the rescue team as well.
Stop talking garbage then, if you can't do that wear a bib.
I haven't ignored that at all. Although the report goes that the Israeli soldiers were captured as they *retreated* back across the Lebanese border after a raid. Regardless, this kind of nonsense has been going on continually, I don't think either side has right on their side, they are as bad as each other.
Sure, let's make that happen after Israel has honored UN Resolution 242.
... So you are aware that Israel has attacked Lebanon repeatedly ...
That is the problem, it wasn't an unprovoked attack. In case you missed it Israel and Hezbollah have been at war since Israel invaded Lebanon and killed 10,000 Lebanese. Most of it the fighting has occurred around the Shebaa Farms area, and I suspect that it could have been stopped quite easily by Israel giving the land back to Lebanon.
Facts have a habit of smacking you in the face if you persist in ignoring them.
McDreamy said:To bad the Shaaba farms never belonged to Lebanon, but to Syria. Are you saying the Lebanon is a puppet of Syria...ding ding ding!
UN resolution 242 has nothing to do with Lebanon, but with pre-1967 borders with Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.
Someone like you calling me a bigot is laughable...it's like the pot calling the kettle black. Enough, I've realized you can continue to read and believe the junk you read on the internet but at least you should know what things are about. Enough is enough. I'm resigned to just say you will believe what you will and I'm not going to convince you otherwise. Go to Israel and then visit Syria, Lebanon, and Iran and maybe you will gain new perspective.
darkboong said:Nope. I'm saying that Lebanon and Hezbollah want that land and it's Syria's to give away.
You stated that Hezbollah/Lebanon have not complied with 1559, Israel have not complied with resoltuion 242 for nearly 40 years. As far as I see it you have no grounds for complaint with Hezbollah and Lebanon, unless of course you are a bigot.
Laugh away Bigot Boy.
Lebanese and Palestinian lives are *not* Junk to me.
After you. You can start with the Gaza strip.
It is entirely possible that we would not even be having this discussion at all if Israel et al had complied with UN Resolution 242. Palestinians would be living in a de facto 2-state solution (the PLO specifically set this out as a goal), and Israel might not have invaded Lebanon, creating Hezbollah, in the first place... Oh and Shebba Farms would still be Syrian of course, removing one of the pretexts for violence that exists today.
Carrera said:"Just a little bit of critical thinking. It amazes me the standards that Israel is held to; not the fact that it's held to standards, but that it's held to higher standards than any other country in the world."
Absolutely. That's the point I've been making for the last couple of years.
Carrera said:There was little support for Russia back then which is why Russia's near refusal to support Israel now amazes me.
Carrera said:I mean, wow! Israel has allowed the Red Cross and the U.N. into the zone of conflict, knowing the IDF would be demonised by the media.
Carrera said:Russia simply allowed nobody into Chechnya. In fact, I knew a guy whose parents had been shot by Russian troops in Chechnya and I heard of cases of rape and torture.
Carrera said:Then, you take a look at the U.S. and the way they dealt with some Iraqi POW's. Could you imagine the uproar there would be if the IDF stripped Hezbolla fighters, had Israeli women hold them with dog-leashes and take pics to be published on the internet?
Carrera said:Nope, the IDF may be heavy-handed but it's professional.
Carrera said:There is no rape that I know of by IDF troops in these villages.
Carrera said:What really stuns me, though, is the hypocrisy of the British in this case. This is a nation that has Anglos all over Australia and Africa (including the Falklands) yet they constantly complain about Jews being in Israel, as if Jews were the only race on Earth to be involved in a land dispute.
All in all. Well said!
darkboong said:Without any kind of evidence to support it. In McDreamy's post he complained about Lebanon failing to comply with UN Resolution 1559, yet Israel has been ignoring 242 & 338 for nearly FIFTY YEARS. Iraq failed to comply with UN resolutions and was bombed to ****, the same goes for Yugoslavia. Quite clearly Israel is being cut some slack.
Think about it much harder.
The IDF *attacks* the Red Cross as a matter of routine, that has been widely reported too so I guess you have simply been ignoring it.
"The night of July 23, we were called to rescue a family whose home was bombed," Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic with the Lebanese Red Cross in Tyre told IPS. "Just as I finished loading the three injured people in my ambulance, it was struck by a rocket and all of us were injured.
The ambulance, now parked outside of the Red Cross headquarters in this coastal city, had a hole through the center of the red cross painted on its roof. The inside was heavily damaged and pieces of the metal frame of the van hung limply, riddled with shrapnel holes.
***SNIP***
Shaulan said his headquarters had received calls from Qana pleading for rescue assistance at 5 a.m. on the morning of the Israeli strike. The shelter was bombed at 1 a.m.
"Immediately after we got the call, we took three ambulances and headed to Qana," he said. "But three bombs nearly hit our first ambulance, so we turned back."
They attempted to head out to Qana a second time, but again their ambulances were attacked, and they returned to base. "They were keeping us away," Shaulan said. They succeeded a third time, just before 9 a.m. "
And then there is this ...
"The Red Cross had received guarantees of safe passage for the convoy from both the Lebanese-based militant group Hezbollah and the Israeli army, which have exchanged rocket attacks and air strikes for the past 17 days.
Loaded with much-needed medical supplies, food, clothing and blankets donated from Qatar, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the convoy of 10 trucks was supposed to leave Damascus for Beirut on Friday.
But despite assurances from both sides in the conflict, Red Cross spokeswoman Tamara Al Rifai said the drivers have refused to enter Lebanon.
"The drivers are scared, and rightly so," she said.
Al Rifai says two incidents have added to the drivers' fears. Last week, an aid truck from the United Arab Emirates was hit by Israeli warplanes shortly after it crossed the border into Lebanon."
Please note : That last incident was reported by the Malaysian Sun as an attack on a convoy of 26 Red Cross vehicles.
Moving on to the Baalbek raid :
"Inside the car that rushed out of the hospital area and that was chased and filmed by the Israelis were a man and his wife, eight-months pregnant. The first rocket hit the back of the car. The two passengers leave the car screaming for help. The helicopter makes a U-turn and shoots again. The man manages to escape, the woman doesn't. A little bit later, the neighbors rush to the car and find her dead, with an exploded belly and the fetus projected outside."
That kind of thing will happen when you attack a Hospital. The IDF is operating without any kind of moral restraint. This is not a new thing either :
"Lockheed has already been implicated in the massacre of four children and two women in Lebanon when an Israeli Apache helicopter, made by Lockheed, fired a Lockheed-made Hellfire 1 missile into an ambulance in southern Lebanon in 1996. Computer plates from the air-to-ground rocket - whose advertising logo read: "All For One and One For All"- were subsequently taken to the US by the Independent on Sunday and identified as a Hellfire, by Boeing executives who were then joint-makers of the missile."
Russia *did* let them in, then they shot at them.
Oddly enough the US has quite specifically used a bunch of IDF techniques on those prisoners and there was outrage for that. There has been outrage for them holding people for years without charge, something that Israel also does. Oddly enough there has been much less outrage (as far as the media goes) for the way that Israel applies those techniques to Palestinians.
Categorically not. The IDF is a conscript army. There is nothing professional about attacking Ambulances, shooting school kids at their desks in schools with sniper rifles, or emptying a clip into a 13 year old kid with a lunchbox. There is bugger all professional about accusing a 9 year old kid of attacking a border guard, pistol whipping her, then holding her in prison indefinitely.
You don't know of it because you won't hear of it. Denial, fantasy and lying appear to be the pillars of your reasoning.
That is not the complaint, as you know full well Denial Boy. The complaint is that the Zionists in Israel are Ethnically Cleansing the place.
Carrera said:Clearly there is hope. Mcdreamy has been the second poster on this forum to blow this image of darkboong being a peacenik.
Carrera said:So, here we go:
Carrera said:"Iraq failed to comply with UN resolutions and was bombed to ****, the same goes for Yugoslavia. Quite clearly Israel is being cut some slack."
Hezbollah seriously broke a U.N. resolution which required them to disarm - something they agreed to do.
Carrera said:Now it turns out they've been allowed to store katusha missiles in houses, trucks, schools and bunkers. They agreed to disarm I believe so there are no excuses.
Carrera said:"The IDF *attacks* the Red Cross as a matter of routine, that has been widely reported too so I guess you have simply been ignoring it."
Carrera said:I'm sorry but this is a war zone and mistakes happen.
Carrera said:Hezbollah chose to fight a war from an urban area amongst civilians and I believe you totally ignored a testimony I posted not too long ago by a guy who had lived in a village. He testified to the fact missiles were being stored in schools, shops, hospitals e.t.c.
Carrera said:Obviously you disagree with the BBC. They admitted urban centres were being used in order to use human shields.
Carrera said:Anyway back to the point in hand: Mcdreamy evidenty noted a major gripe I've pointed to on numerous occasions - your sources.
Carrera said:Let's face it anyone can search Google to search for dubious information.
Carrera said:I could quite easily fill my posts with testimony after testimony of hand-amputations, floggings, hangings and religious persecutions in Iran to try and shock folk..
Carrera said:Or schoolgirls not being allowed out of a school that was on fire as they didn't have their burkhas e.t.c. e.t.c. It's just not my style of argument.
Carrera said:This is the problem with your research. It consists of attempts to try and dig up dirt about only one specific country in an attempt to try and prove to people that country is uniquely despotic or barbaric - the only democracy in the Middle East in this case.
Carrera said:The problem is you don't really know anything about the war in Chechnya, the situation of Russian-speakers in Latvia, the religious persecutions in Iran and other such situations because you're too busy searching Google for dubious sources over Israel.
Carrera said:It's a one-track mind fueled by prejudice, if you ask me.
Carrera said:Let's face it if the Russian army had been the IDF, or Latvia had been Israel you'd already be an expert on those topics by now.
darkboong said:Rave on Denial Boy. I am the one condemning violence, you are the one excusing it.
My prediction : Crappy ignores the post, changes the topic.
So what ? Israel has been breaking UN Resolution 242 for 50 years. When Israel complies with 242 I will advocate Hezbollah complying with 1559 (which Israel is also violating as we speak).
The IDF does all of that as a matter of routine. I can understand that the IDF may be assuming that it's enemies operate in the same way, but I can't understand why they don't do their target reconn and selection properly. They have unrestricted access to 24x7 satellite and drone intelligence, yet they are routinely wasting their bombs on women and children.
Hezbollah have a better civillian / militant kill ratio than the IDF at the moment without access to intelligence of that quality or precision guided weapons. The only rational conclusion I can draw is that the IDF is either deliberately targetting civillians (see Dan Halutz's 10 for 1 promise), or they are criminally negligent. Either way they are killing more civillians than militants and that will simply lead to more civillians becoming militant, so the net result is that their campaign will result in a net gain for the Lebanese resistance movement.
The accounts were there in print for you to read, they are very clear. Either you have not read them, or you are simply denying that they exist.
A mistake in this context goes along the lines of :
1) Convoy asks IDF for clearance to move along a pre-deterimined route at a pre-determined time.
2) The IDF grants clearance (as you rightly said they do).
3) By chance an IDF ground attack aircraft just happens to have taken off over 100-200 miles away and just happens to be right over that very same convoy as it crosses into Lebanon.
The repeated coincidences along those lines stretches credibility somewhat, particularly in view of the IDF's response to the UNIFIL posts asking them to ceasefire for over 6 hours.
So what ? The IDF do the same trick. By the logic that you share with the IDF it is legitimate for any Israeli home to be attacked.
The same argument goes for Coventry in WWII and every single settlement in Israel today.
You have rarely responded to the posts or researched the sources Crappy. In response to your post from that dubious character in Germany, I have ONLY found that article coming from the Mel P/Pipes Axis of Evil. That said I have no doubt that Hezbollah and the IDF stash weapons in and around urban areas, which makes it doubly criminal for a military campaign to be based around the destruction of all such weapons using indiscriminate weapons (eg: laser guided bombs, hellfire missiles, artillery etc).
Indeed, you do that yourself.
Indeed, you have, fill your boots.
Actually it is, because all you have done is just make the allegations without supporting them with sources here and now. You keep on doing that and quite frankly it doesn't look like laziness anymore, so all we can conclude is that you make stuff up and use tainted sources intentionally.
You keep making that claim Crappy, but it is a lie. I have never made the point that Israel is uniquely despotic or barbaric. It is certainly despotic and barbaric towards ~50% of it's population, they don't get the democracy bit, they don't even get granted citizenship. Syria by contrast has taken in over 500,000 refugees from Iraq and Lebanon over the last 4 years, they get more rights than Palestinians who have lived on the same patch of land all their lives.
I don't see why that is relevent to Israel's mistreatment of the indigenous Gentile population.
Hey, I am not the one making stuff up and attributing it to ethnic groups.
You have made loads of **** up about Muslims and immigrants, and have been proven categorically wrong each time (as Lim kindly reminded us).
You have specifically stated that you don't want immigrants in this country and you keep claiming that they don't make any contribution and that you resent the existence of Mosques.
Your pet belief is that people of different races can't get on so every race should have it's own ethnically "pure" homeland.
By contrast...
I have repeatedly refuted your lies about immigrants and Muslims with evidence backed by multiple independent sources.
I have stated that I believe that immigrants should be welcome in this country and that I see value in their contribution.
I have specifically stated that I believe that people should get along and that segregation simply does not work. It didn't work in the USA, it didn't work in South Africa, it does not work in Israel. It doesn't seem to work anywhere in fact.
If anyone's mind is fuelled by prejudice it is yours.
Unlikely, for the reasons I gave in a previous post that you failed to respond to (presumably because you are in denial over it's contents).
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