Effects of censorship on reporting of Israel/Hezbollah fighting.
- Thread starter darkboong
- Start date
● And Jonathan Cook, writing in the International Herald Tribune for expressing his understanding and appreciation of Palestinian terrorism as the 'surest way to get their struggle noticed.' (The IHT was also caught altering New York Times articles to make Israel look worse, and Palestinian terrorists look better.)
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/The_Dishonest_Reporting_Awards_2004.asp
Or try camera.org and you'll see Jonathan Cook's true colors.
If you actually read all of Jonathan Cook's article much of it is conjecture.
DO NOT believe everything you see or read. Just a little bit of critical thinking. It amazes me the standards that Israel is held to; not the fact that it's held to standards, but that it's held to higher standards than any other country in the world. Yet, Israel meets many of these standards. By no means do I mean to imply that Israel is perfect, like other countries around the world it has its issues too. Compare Israel to it's neighbors and it sparkle crystal clean in comparison. But Jesus know the history and know the present. People just keep putting out this dribble. As for the current conflict, history will judge. Everyone jumps to conclusions right off the bat. If Israel is so horrible, so mighty, and so all-powerful why has it not wiped Lebanon, Syria, and Iran off the map? Restraint. Israel is fighting a tactical and calculated war in order to secure itself. It sickens me to hear that Israel is overreacting. If France suddenly decided to start shooting missles into Great Britain and crossed over the channel with soldiers and killed some British soldiers would Britain sit still and say, "Please sir may I have another." Or would the U.S. watch their southern border be attacked? No, they would go to full scale war to defend their people and land! Yet Israel is supposed to sit back and pretend everything is okay. Explain to me why?
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/The_Dishonest_Reporting_Awards_2004.asp
Or try camera.org and you'll see Jonathan Cook's true colors.
If you actually read all of Jonathan Cook's article much of it is conjecture.
DO NOT believe everything you see or read. Just a little bit of critical thinking. It amazes me the standards that Israel is held to; not the fact that it's held to standards, but that it's held to higher standards than any other country in the world. Yet, Israel meets many of these standards. By no means do I mean to imply that Israel is perfect, like other countries around the world it has its issues too. Compare Israel to it's neighbors and it sparkle crystal clean in comparison. But Jesus know the history and know the present. People just keep putting out this dribble. As for the current conflict, history will judge. Everyone jumps to conclusions right off the bat. If Israel is so horrible, so mighty, and so all-powerful why has it not wiped Lebanon, Syria, and Iran off the map? Restraint. Israel is fighting a tactical and calculated war in order to secure itself. It sickens me to hear that Israel is overreacting. If France suddenly decided to start shooting missles into Great Britain and crossed over the channel with soldiers and killed some British soldiers would Britain sit still and say, "Please sir may I have another." Or would the U.S. watch their southern border be attacked? No, they would go to full scale war to defend their people and land! Yet Israel is supposed to sit back and pretend everything is okay. Explain to me why?
McDreamy said:
I don't hate Israel. I hate what it does.
McDreamy said:
Weird, because I specifically have mentioned some good stuff. Maybe you just ignored the bits that didn't fit with your world view.
McDreamy said:
The state of Israel *is* truely awful.
McDreamy said:
Nope.
McDreamy said:
No. I want equal rights for Palestinians, some of whom are Semitic.
Are you Anti-Palestinian ?
McDreamy said:
However, the stuff about the barracks being next to hospitals is true. Tough titty if you don't like the facts of the matter.
McDreamy said:
Tosh.
McDreamy said:
It fails on the not shooting children front quite spectacularly.
McDreamy said:
What, like Lebanon ?
McDreamy said:
Because Israel's military is not infallable, although it has succesfully destroyed Lebanon in a couple of weeks. Well done, very gentle of you.
McDreamy said:
Rubbish.
McDreamy said:
By attacking UNIFIL observation posts for example. I don't think that you have any idea what kind of feeling that is going to create in Lebanon. Those people are very unlikely to forgive or forget after this particular escapade.
McDreamy said:
Throw up, it's not my carpet.
McDreamy said:
That wouldn't be the same situation, because the rockets came *after* the IDF had already struck Beirut and killed over 20 civillians in Lebanon. It's all ifs and buts, and you can't even get the analogy correct because you won't acknowledge that Israel was the side that dropped the big one on civillians first.
McDreamy said:Explain to me why?
Why should I bother ? You can't even get your analogies straight.
And where were all the fathers of these children? Oh yeah, they were outside the building firing rockets!
Oh you mean the farce of a democracy that divides there government according to a census over 30 years old and that actually wields no power, since we know Syria still pulls the strings. Not to mention that they have absolutely no control over the south.
The infrastructure has been destroyed, but the IDF has been putting only small groups of troops into the area. There is no overwhelming force on the ground.
Yes, the UNIFIL observation post that had Hezbollah fighters firing rockets from all around it confirmed by one of those UNIFIL soldiers in an email prior to his death. Have you not seen photos of UN flags flying right along side the Hezbollah yellow flags. Oh, and which population was it that attacked UN offices?
Blah! Too much garbage makes me puke.
Hah! You can't even get the facts straight of the current situation, or do you just choose to ignore that Hezbollah crossed into Israel against all of international law and against UN resolution 1559 after Israel had unilaterally withdrawn 6 years ago and kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers without provocation.
I think my head hurts, because it's difficult to explain things to a brick wall.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20060803/cm_huffpost/026467
http://www.noniedarwish.com
Brigitte Gabriel Speech at Duke University
Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel, delivered at the Duke University Counter Terrorism Speak-Out
I'm proud and honoured to stand here today, as a Lebanese speaking for Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. As someone who was raised in an Arabic country, I want to give you a glimpse into the heart of the Arabic world.
I was raised in Lebanon, where I was taught that the Jews were evil, Israel was the devil, and the only time we will have peace in the Middle East is when we kill all the Jews and drive them into the sea.
When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in 1975, they started massacring the Christians, city after city. I ended up living in a bomb shelter underground from age 10 to 17, without electricity, eating grass to live, and crawling under sniper bullets to a spring to get water.
It was Israel who came to help the Christians in Lebanon. My mother was wounded by a Moslem's shell, and was taken into an Israeli hospital for treatment. When we entered the emergency room, I was shocked at what I saw. There were hundreds of people wounded, Moslems, Palestinians, Christians, Lebanese, and Israeli soldiers lying on the floor. The doctors treated everyone according to their injury. They treated my mother before they treated the Israeli soldier lying next to her. They didn't see religion, they didn't see political affiliation, they saw people in need and they helped.
>For the first time in my life I experienced a human quality that I know my culture would not have shown to their enemy. I experienced the values of the Israelis, who were able to love their enemy in their most trying moments. I spent 22 days at that hospital. Those days changed my life and the way I believe information, the way I listen to the radio or to television. I realized I was sold a fabricated lie by my government, about the Jews and Israel, that was so far from reality. I knew for fact that, if I was a Jew standing in an Arab hospital, I would be lynched and thrown over to the grounds, as shouts of joy of Allah Akbar, God is great, would echo through the hospital and the surrounding streets.
I became friends with the families of the Israeli wounded soldiers: one in particular Rina, her only child was wounded in his eyes.
One day I was visiting with her, and the Israeli army band came to play national songs to lift the spirits of the wounded soldiers. As they surrounded his bed playing a song about Jerusalem, Rina and I started crying. I felt out of place and started waking out of the room, and this
mother holds my hand and pulls me back in without even looking at me.
She holds me crying and says: "it is not your fault". We just stood there crying, holding each other's hands.
What a contrast between her, a mother looking at her deformed 19 year old only child, and still able to love me the enemy, and between a Moslem mother who sends her son to blow himself up to smithereens just to kill a few Jews or Christians.
The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil.
Once upon a time, there was a special place in the lowest depths of hell for anyone who would intentionally murder a child. Now, the intentional murder of Israeli children is legitimized as Palestinian "armed struggle".
However, once such behaviour is legitimized against Israel, it is legitimized every where in the world, constrained by nothing more than the subjective belief of people who would wrap themselves in dynamite and nails for the purpose of killing children in the name of god.
Because the Palestinians have been encouraged to believe that murdering innocent Israeli civilians is a legitimate tactic for advancing their cause, the whole world now suffers from a plague of terrorism, from Nairobi to New York, from Moscow to Madrid, from Bali to Beslan.
They blame suicide bombing on "desperation of occupation". Let me tell you the truth. The first major terror bombing committed by Arabs against the Jewish state occurred ten weeks before Israel even became independent.
On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948, in anticipation of Israel’s independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on Ben Yehuda Street, in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem. Fifty-four people were killed, and hundreds were wounded. Thus, it is obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by the "desperation" of "occupation", but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state.
So many times in history in the last 100 years, citizens have stood by and done nothing, allowing evil to prevail. As America stood up against and defeated communism, now it is time to stand up against the terror of religious bigotry and intolerance. It's time to all stand up, and support and defend the state of Israel, which is the front line of the war against terrorism.
http://www.noniedarwish.com
Brigitte Gabriel Speech at Duke University
Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel, delivered at the Duke University Counter Terrorism Speak-Out
I'm proud and honoured to stand here today, as a Lebanese speaking for Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. As someone who was raised in an Arabic country, I want to give you a glimpse into the heart of the Arabic world.
I was raised in Lebanon, where I was taught that the Jews were evil, Israel was the devil, and the only time we will have peace in the Middle East is when we kill all the Jews and drive them into the sea.
When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in 1975, they started massacring the Christians, city after city. I ended up living in a bomb shelter underground from age 10 to 17, without electricity, eating grass to live, and crawling under sniper bullets to a spring to get water.
It was Israel who came to help the Christians in Lebanon. My mother was wounded by a Moslem's shell, and was taken into an Israeli hospital for treatment. When we entered the emergency room, I was shocked at what I saw. There were hundreds of people wounded, Moslems, Palestinians, Christians, Lebanese, and Israeli soldiers lying on the floor. The doctors treated everyone according to their injury. They treated my mother before they treated the Israeli soldier lying next to her. They didn't see religion, they didn't see political affiliation, they saw people in need and they helped.
>For the first time in my life I experienced a human quality that I know my culture would not have shown to their enemy. I experienced the values of the Israelis, who were able to love their enemy in their most trying moments. I spent 22 days at that hospital. Those days changed my life and the way I believe information, the way I listen to the radio or to television. I realized I was sold a fabricated lie by my government, about the Jews and Israel, that was so far from reality. I knew for fact that, if I was a Jew standing in an Arab hospital, I would be lynched and thrown over to the grounds, as shouts of joy of Allah Akbar, God is great, would echo through the hospital and the surrounding streets.
I became friends with the families of the Israeli wounded soldiers: one in particular Rina, her only child was wounded in his eyes.
One day I was visiting with her, and the Israeli army band came to play national songs to lift the spirits of the wounded soldiers. As they surrounded his bed playing a song about Jerusalem, Rina and I started crying. I felt out of place and started waking out of the room, and this
mother holds my hand and pulls me back in without even looking at me.
She holds me crying and says: "it is not your fault". We just stood there crying, holding each other's hands.
What a contrast between her, a mother looking at her deformed 19 year old only child, and still able to love me the enemy, and between a Moslem mother who sends her son to blow himself up to smithereens just to kill a few Jews or Christians.
The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil.
Once upon a time, there was a special place in the lowest depths of hell for anyone who would intentionally murder a child. Now, the intentional murder of Israeli children is legitimized as Palestinian "armed struggle".
However, once such behaviour is legitimized against Israel, it is legitimized every where in the world, constrained by nothing more than the subjective belief of people who would wrap themselves in dynamite and nails for the purpose of killing children in the name of god.
Because the Palestinians have been encouraged to believe that murdering innocent Israeli civilians is a legitimate tactic for advancing their cause, the whole world now suffers from a plague of terrorism, from Nairobi to New York, from Moscow to Madrid, from Bali to Beslan.
They blame suicide bombing on "desperation of occupation". Let me tell you the truth. The first major terror bombing committed by Arabs against the Jewish state occurred ten weeks before Israel even became independent.
On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948, in anticipation of Israel’s independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on Ben Yehuda Street, in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem. Fifty-four people were killed, and hundreds were wounded. Thus, it is obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by the "desperation" of "occupation", but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state.
So many times in history in the last 100 years, citizens have stood by and done nothing, allowing evil to prevail. As America stood up against and defeated communism, now it is time to stand up against the terror of religious bigotry and intolerance. It's time to all stand up, and support and defend the state of Israel, which is the front line of the war against terrorism.
McDreamy said:
I wouldn't take the word of a bigot like yourself. Produce hard evidence that all the children's fathers were militants. Presumption of guilt by race is racist.
McDreamy said:
The government left behind by Israel's 30 years of invasion. Israel made Lebanon what it is today. If Israeli soldiers hadn't been there killing people Hezbollah wouldn't even exist.
McDreamy said:
No, but the country is practically gutted, and now littered with UXO.
McDreamy said:
The UNIFIL report makes no mention of firing by Hezbollah around the patrol base in the Khiyam sector. It does mention that they had been fired upon on 14 prior occasions that day. The UNIFIL commander had been in contact with the IDF the entire afternoon asking them to stop shooting them.
Reuters said:
As if that wasn't bad enough they shelled the rescue operation.
Reuters said:
You and the IDF think that it is OK to shoot unarmed non-combatants. I don't. Why were the IDF so adamant to destroy the position ?
McDreamy said:
What about it ? Did the crowd kill anyone ? No. Did they shell the UN building for 6 hours ? No. Did they cease and desist with no casualties ? Yes. The IDF kept on attacking until they turned the UN patrol base to rubble, and they shelled the rescue team as well.
McDreamy said:
Stop talking garbage then, if you can't do that wear a bib.
McDreamy said:
I haven't ignored that at all. Although the report goes that the Israeli soldiers were captured as they *retreated* back across the Lebanese border after a raid. Regardless, this kind of nonsense has been going on continually, I don't think either side has right on their side, they are as bad as each other.
McDreamy said:
Sure, let's make that happen after Israel has honored UN Resolution 242.
McDreamy said:
... So you are aware that Israel has attacked Lebanon repeatedly ...
McDreamy said:
That is the problem, it wasn't an unprovoked attack. In case you missed it Israel and Hezbollah have been at war since Israel invaded Lebanon and killed 10,000 Lebanese. Most of it the fighting has occurred around the Shebaa Farms area, and I suspect that it could have been stopped quite easily by Israel giving the land back to Lebanon.
McDreamy said:
Facts have a habit of smacking you in the face if you persist in ignoring them.
McDreamy said:
Quite clearly she is a gullable maniac, and she sure as hell doesn't speak for the Lebanese folks I know. For the record practically *ALL* of her speech is conjecture. I don't understand what point you are trying to make by publishing a bigotted hysterical rant against Arabs and Muslims. There are lots of hysterical bigots out there all of whom have their world vision that they feel morally obligated to inflict on the rest of the world.
By contrast :
BBC said:
That was not a unique gesture either ...
Middle East Online said:
You choose to promote a vision of a extremism and violence, I choose to promote a vision of mutal respect for life and co-operation.
To bad the Shaaba farms never belonged to Lebanon, but to Syria. Are you saying the Lebanon is a puppet of Syria...ding ding ding!
UN resolution 242 has nothing to do with Lebanon, but with pre-1967 borders with Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.
Someone like you calling me a bigot is laughable...it's like the pot calling the kettle black. Enough, I've realized you can continue to read and believe the junk you read on the internet but at least you should know what things are about. Enough is enough. I'm resigned to just say you will believe what you will and I'm not going to convince you otherwise. Go to Israel and then visit Syria, Lebanon, and Iran and maybe you will gain new perspective.
UN resolution 242 has nothing to do with Lebanon, but with pre-1967 borders with Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.
Someone like you calling me a bigot is laughable...it's like the pot calling the kettle black. Enough, I've realized you can continue to read and believe the junk you read on the internet but at least you should know what things are about. Enough is enough. I'm resigned to just say you will believe what you will and I'm not going to convince you otherwise. Go to Israel and then visit Syria, Lebanon, and Iran and maybe you will gain new perspective.
McDreamy said:
Nope. I'm saying that Lebanon and Hezbollah want that land and it's Syria's to give away.
McDreamy said:
You stated that Hezbollah/Lebanon have not complied with 1559, Israel have not complied with resoltuion 242 for nearly 40 years. As far as I see it you have no grounds for complaint with Hezbollah and Lebanon, unless of course you are a bigot.
McDreamy said:
Laugh away Bigot Boy.
McDreamy said:
Lebanese and Palestinian lives are *not* Junk to me.
McDreamy said:
After you. You can start with the Gaza strip.
It is entirely possible that we would not even be having this discussion at all if Israel et al had complied with UN Resolution 242. Palestinians would be living in a de facto 2-state solution (the PLO specifically set this out as a goal), and Israel might not have invaded Lebanon, creating Hezbollah, in the first place... Oh and Shebba Farms would still be Syrian of course, removing one of the pretexts for violence that exists today.
"Just a little bit of critical thinking. It amazes me the standards that Israel is held to; not the fact that it's held to standards, but that it's held to higher standards than any other country in the world."
Absolutely. That's the point I've been making for the last couple of years. The only comparison I can make between Israel's war and a former event would be Chechnya. I do recall the reaction of the West when Yeltsin sent troops into Chechnya and Clinton was urging Russia to negotiate. There was little support for Russia back then which is why Russia's near refusal to support Israel now amazes me.
I mean, wow! Israel has allowed the Red Cross and the U.N. into the zone of conflict, knowing the IDF would be demonised by the media. Russia simply allowed nobody into Chechnya. In fact, I knew a guy whose parents had been shot by Russian troops in Chechnya and I heard of cases of rape and torture.
Then, you take a look at the U.S. and the way they dealt with some Iraqi POW's. Could you imagine the uproar there would be if the IDF stripped Hezbolla fighters, had Israeli women hold them with dog-leashes and take pics to be published on the internet?
Nope, the IDF may be heavy-handed but it's professional. There is no rape that I know of by IDF troops in these villages. War is just war.
What really stuns me, though, is the hypocrisy of the British in this case. This is a nation that has Anglos all over Australia and Africa (including the Falklands) yet they constantly complain about Jews being in Israel, as if Jews were the only race on Earth to be involved in a land dispute.
All in all. Well said!
Absolutely. That's the point I've been making for the last couple of years. The only comparison I can make between Israel's war and a former event would be Chechnya. I do recall the reaction of the West when Yeltsin sent troops into Chechnya and Clinton was urging Russia to negotiate. There was little support for Russia back then which is why Russia's near refusal to support Israel now amazes me.
I mean, wow! Israel has allowed the Red Cross and the U.N. into the zone of conflict, knowing the IDF would be demonised by the media. Russia simply allowed nobody into Chechnya. In fact, I knew a guy whose parents had been shot by Russian troops in Chechnya and I heard of cases of rape and torture.
Then, you take a look at the U.S. and the way they dealt with some Iraqi POW's. Could you imagine the uproar there would be if the IDF stripped Hezbolla fighters, had Israeli women hold them with dog-leashes and take pics to be published on the internet?
Nope, the IDF may be heavy-handed but it's professional. There is no rape that I know of by IDF troops in these villages. War is just war.
What really stuns me, though, is the hypocrisy of the British in this case. This is a nation that has Anglos all over Australia and Africa (including the Falklands) yet they constantly complain about Jews being in Israel, as if Jews were the only race on Earth to be involved in a land dispute.
All in all. Well said!
McDreamy said:● And Jonathan Cook, writing in the International Herald Tribune for expressing his understanding and appreciation of Palestinian terrorism as the 'surest way to get their struggle noticed.' (The IHT was also caught altering New York Times articles to make Israel look worse, and Palestinian terrorists look better.)
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/The_Dishonest_Reporting_Awards_2004.asp
Or try camera.org and you'll see Jonathan Cook's true colors.
If you actually read all of Jonathan Cook's article much of it is conjecture.
DO NOT believe everything you see or read. Just a little bit of critical thinking. It amazes me the standards that Israel is held to; not the fact that it's held to standards, but that it's held to higher standards than any other country in the world. Yet, Israel meets many of these standards. By no means do I mean to imply that Israel is perfect, like other countries around the world it has its issues too. Compare Israel to it's neighbors and it sparkle crystal clean in comparison. But Jesus know the history and know the present. People just keep putting out this dribble. As for the current conflict, history will judge. Everyone jumps to conclusions right off the bat. If Israel is so horrible, so mighty, and so all-powerful why has it not wiped Lebanon, Syria, and Iran off the map? Restraint. Israel is fighting a tactical and calculated war in order to secure itself. It sickens me to hear that Israel is overreacting. If France suddenly decided to start shooting missles into Great Britain and crossed over the channel with soldiers and killed some British soldiers would Britain sit still and say, "Please sir may I have another." Or would the U.S. watch their southern border be attacked? No, they would go to full scale war to defend their people and land! Yet Israel is supposed to sit back and pretend everything is okay. Explain to me why?
The guy is right. This is the most sensible thing I've read on this forum for years.
What I keep asking you to explain on many occasions, Darkboong, is why you discriminate against Jewish people and expect them to meet standards your own country doesn't meet.
Britain throughout history has been renowned for slavery of black people, colonisation of the Third World, bombing Iraq before the Americans ever did and a whole variety of wrongs.
What gives the British press the right to judge a tiny country like Israel (that never enslaved black people and chained them to ships to die of heat and dehydration).
Look at Israel's human rights record and compare it to your own country and let's take it from there. Or try asking any black person whether he (or she) imagines Israel has as much to be guilty about as the British.
There is a saying somewhere about casting the mote in your own eye out before you criticize the speck in somebody else's.
What I keep asking you to explain on many occasions, Darkboong, is why you discriminate against Jewish people and expect them to meet standards your own country doesn't meet.
Britain throughout history has been renowned for slavery of black people, colonisation of the Third World, bombing Iraq before the Americans ever did and a whole variety of wrongs.
What gives the British press the right to judge a tiny country like Israel (that never enslaved black people and chained them to ships to die of heat and dehydration).
Look at Israel's human rights record and compare it to your own country and let's take it from there. Or try asking any black person whether he (or she) imagines Israel has as much to be guilty about as the British.
There is a saying somewhere about casting the mote in your own eye out before you criticize the speck in somebody else's.
darkboong said:
"Enough, I've realized you can continue to read and believe the junk you read on the internet but at least you should know what things are about."
Spot on! He searches Google for propaganda he can use to build his case which happens to fit in with his own bigotry. He never produces any actual history texts or essays a major gripe.
He would certainly stand on a soap-box in New York to blast the U.S. but he wouldn't dare go to Iran and take a poke at radical Islam. He believes what he wants to believe.
Spot on! He searches Google for propaganda he can use to build his case which happens to fit in with his own bigotry. He never produces any actual history texts or essays a major gripe.
He would certainly stand on a soap-box in New York to blast the U.S. but he wouldn't dare go to Iran and take a poke at radical Islam. He believes what he wants to believe.
McDreamy said:
Carrera said:
Without any kind of evidence to support it. In McDreamy's post he complained about Lebanon failing to comply with UN Resolution 1559, yet Israel has been ignoring 242 & 338 for nearly FIFTY YEARS. Iraq failed to comply with UN resolutions and was bombed to ****, the same goes for Yugoslavia. Quite clearly Israel is being cut some slack.
Carrera said:
Think about it much harder.
Carrera said:
The IDF *attacks* the Red Cross as a matter of routine, that has been widely reported too so I guess you have simply been ignoring it.
"The night of July 23, we were called to rescue a family whose home was bombed," Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic with the Lebanese Red Cross in Tyre told IPS. "Just as I finished loading the three injured people in my ambulance, it was struck by a rocket and all of us were injured.
The ambulance, now parked outside of the Red Cross headquarters in this coastal city, had a hole through the center of the red cross painted on its roof. The inside was heavily damaged and pieces of the metal frame of the van hung limply, riddled with shrapnel holes.
***SNIP***
Shaulan said his headquarters had received calls from Qana pleading for rescue assistance at 5 a.m. on the morning of the Israeli strike. The shelter was bombed at 1 a.m.
"Immediately after we got the call, we took three ambulances and headed to Qana," he said. "But three bombs nearly hit our first ambulance, so we turned back."
They attempted to head out to Qana a second time, but again their ambulances were attacked, and they returned to base. "They were keeping us away," Shaulan said. They succeeded a third time, just before 9 a.m. "
And then there is this ...
"The Red Cross had received guarantees of safe passage for the convoy from both the Lebanese-based militant group Hezbollah and the Israeli army, which have exchanged rocket attacks and air strikes for the past 17 days.
Loaded with much-needed medical supplies, food, clothing and blankets donated from Qatar, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the convoy of 10 trucks was supposed to leave Damascus for Beirut on Friday.
But despite assurances from both sides in the conflict, Red Cross spokeswoman Tamara Al Rifai said the drivers have refused to enter Lebanon.
"The drivers are scared, and rightly so," she said.
Al Rifai says two incidents have added to the drivers' fears. Last week, an aid truck from the United Arab Emirates was hit by Israeli warplanes shortly after it crossed the border into Lebanon."
Please note : That last incident was reported by the Malaysian Sun as an attack on a convoy of 26 Red Cross vehicles.
Moving on to the Baalbek raid :
"Inside the car that rushed out of the hospital area and that was chased and filmed by the Israelis were a man and his wife, eight-months pregnant. The first rocket hit the back of the car. The two passengers leave the car screaming for help. The helicopter makes a U-turn and shoots again. The man manages to escape, the woman doesn't. A little bit later, the neighbors rush to the car and find her dead, with an exploded belly and the fetus projected outside."
That kind of thing will happen when you attack a Hospital. The IDF is operating without any kind of moral restraint. This is not a new thing either :
"Lockheed has already been implicated in the massacre of four children and two women in Lebanon when an Israeli Apache helicopter, made by Lockheed, fired a Lockheed-made Hellfire 1 missile into an ambulance in southern Lebanon in 1996. Computer plates from the air-to-ground rocket - whose advertising logo read: "All For One and One For All"- were subsequently taken to the US by the Independent on Sunday and identified as a Hellfire, by Boeing executives who were then joint-makers of the missile."
Carrera said:
Russia *did* let them in, then they shot at them.
Carrera said:
Oddly enough the US has quite specifically used a bunch of IDF techniques on those prisoners and there was outrage for that. There has been outrage for them holding people for years without charge, something that Israel also does. Oddly enough there has been much less outrage (as far as the media goes) for the way that Israel applies those techniques to Palestinians.
Carrera said:
Categorically not. The IDF is a conscript army. There is nothing professional about attacking Ambulances, shooting school kids at their desks in schools with sniper rifles, or emptying a clip into a 13 year old kid with a lunchbox. There is bugger all professional about accusing a 9 year old kid of attacking a border guard, pistol whipping her, then holding her in prison indefinitely.
Carrera said:
You don't know of it because you won't hear of it. Denial, fantasy and lying appear to be the pillars of your reasoning.
Carrera said:
That is not the complaint, as you know full well Denial Boy. The complaint is that the Zionists in Israel are Ethnically Cleansing the place.
Clearly there is hope. Mcdreamy has been the second poster on this forum to blow this image of darkboong being a peacenik.
So, here we go:
"Iraq failed to comply with UN resolutions and was bombed to ****, the same goes for Yugoslavia. Quite clearly Israel is being cut some slack."
Hezbollah seriously broke a U.N. resolution which required them to disarm - something they agreed to do. Now it turns out they've been allowed to store katusha missiles in houses, trucks, schools and bunkers. They agreed to disarm I believe so there are no excuses.
"The IDF *attacks* the Red Cross as a matter of routine, that has been widely reported too so I guess you have simply been ignoring it."
This is nothing new unless you want to claim that NATO deliberately bombed convoys knowing they were civilians or deliberately bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. I'm sorry but this is a war zone and mistakes happen. Hezbollah chose to fight a war from an urban area amongst civilians and I believe you totally ignored a testimony I posted not too long ago by a guy who had lived in a village. He testified to the fact missiles were being stored in schools, shops, hospitals e.t.c.
Obviously you disagree with the BBC. They admitted urban centres were being used in order to use human shields.
Anyway back to the point in hand: Mcdreamy evidenty noted a major gripe I've pointed to on numerous occasions - your sources.
Let's face it anyone can search Google to search for dubious information. I could quite easily fill my posts with testimony after testimony of hand-amputations, floggings, hangings and religious persecutions in Iran to try and shock folk.. Or schoolgirls not being allowed out of a school that was on fire as they didn't have their burkhas e.t.c. e.t.c. It's just not my style of argument.
This is the problem with your research. It consists of attempts to try and dig up dirt about only one specific country in an attempt to try and prove to people that country is uniquely despotic or barbaric - the only democracy in the Middle East in this case.
The problem is you don't really know anything about the war in Chechnya, the situation of Russian-speakers in Latvia, the religious persecutions in Iran and other such situations because you're too busy searching Google for dubious sources over Israel. It's a one-track mind fueled by prejudice, if you ask me.
Let's face it if the Russian army had been the IDF, or Latvia had been Israel you'd already be an expert on those topics by now.
So, here we go:
"Iraq failed to comply with UN resolutions and was bombed to ****, the same goes for Yugoslavia. Quite clearly Israel is being cut some slack."
Hezbollah seriously broke a U.N. resolution which required them to disarm - something they agreed to do. Now it turns out they've been allowed to store katusha missiles in houses, trucks, schools and bunkers. They agreed to disarm I believe so there are no excuses.
"The IDF *attacks* the Red Cross as a matter of routine, that has been widely reported too so I guess you have simply been ignoring it."
This is nothing new unless you want to claim that NATO deliberately bombed convoys knowing they were civilians or deliberately bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. I'm sorry but this is a war zone and mistakes happen. Hezbollah chose to fight a war from an urban area amongst civilians and I believe you totally ignored a testimony I posted not too long ago by a guy who had lived in a village. He testified to the fact missiles were being stored in schools, shops, hospitals e.t.c.
Obviously you disagree with the BBC. They admitted urban centres were being used in order to use human shields.
Anyway back to the point in hand: Mcdreamy evidenty noted a major gripe I've pointed to on numerous occasions - your sources.
Let's face it anyone can search Google to search for dubious information. I could quite easily fill my posts with testimony after testimony of hand-amputations, floggings, hangings and religious persecutions in Iran to try and shock folk.. Or schoolgirls not being allowed out of a school that was on fire as they didn't have their burkhas e.t.c. e.t.c. It's just not my style of argument.
This is the problem with your research. It consists of attempts to try and dig up dirt about only one specific country in an attempt to try and prove to people that country is uniquely despotic or barbaric - the only democracy in the Middle East in this case.
The problem is you don't really know anything about the war in Chechnya, the situation of Russian-speakers in Latvia, the religious persecutions in Iran and other such situations because you're too busy searching Google for dubious sources over Israel. It's a one-track mind fueled by prejudice, if you ask me.
Let's face it if the Russian army had been the IDF, or Latvia had been Israel you'd already be an expert on those topics by now.
darkboong said:
How's about we turn the tables and use darkboongs tactics with respect to Iran. Bearing in mind Darkboong is clearly upset about religious intolerance in Israel, how's about this:
Iran:
(1)Despite all denials at the official level the Law on Apostasy is practised and remains in force. It is under this law that converts from Islam to other religions are subject to capital punishment. Some examples of the application of this law are as follows:
Mehdi Dibaj, a Muslim convert to Christianity, was in prison for nearly 9 years. During that time, he endured 2 years in solitary confinement and was subjected to mock executions. He was imprisoned by the Sharia court in Sari on three charges: 1.That he had "insulted Islam, the prophet Muhammad and Ayatollah Khomeini" in a letter; 2. That he was acting as a spy for the West; and 3. That he was an apostate.
(2)Check out the pic of 2 gay guys being hung in Iran.
(3)Womens rights in Iran: "In the central Iranian city of Shahin-Shahr, the prosecutor’s office posted huge notices on billboards and shop windows warning women that dress code violators will appear before an Islamic judge immediately after arrest to receive a sentence, usually 100 lashes in public. The prosecutor will be demanding maximum penalties, the notice warned."
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3613
Iran:
(1)Despite all denials at the official level the Law on Apostasy is practised and remains in force. It is under this law that converts from Islam to other religions are subject to capital punishment. Some examples of the application of this law are as follows:
Mehdi Dibaj, a Muslim convert to Christianity, was in prison for nearly 9 years. During that time, he endured 2 years in solitary confinement and was subjected to mock executions. He was imprisoned by the Sharia court in Sari on three charges: 1.That he had "insulted Islam, the prophet Muhammad and Ayatollah Khomeini" in a letter; 2. That he was acting as a spy for the West; and 3. That he was an apostate.
(2)Check out the pic of 2 gay guys being hung in Iran.
(3)Womens rights in Iran: "In the central Iranian city of Shahin-Shahr, the prosecutor’s office posted huge notices on billboards and shop windows warning women that dress code violators will appear before an Islamic judge immediately after arrest to receive a sentence, usually 100 lashes in public. The prosecutor will be demanding maximum penalties, the notice warned."
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3613
Carrera said:
Rave on Denial Boy. I am the one condemning violence, you are the one excusing it.
Carrera said:
My prediction : Crappy ignores the post, changes the topic.
Carrera said:
So what ? Israel has been breaking UN Resolution 242 for 50 years. When Israel complies with 242 I will advocate Hezbollah complying with 1559 (which Israel is also violating as we speak).
Carrera said:
The IDF does all of that as a matter of routine. I can understand that the IDF may be assuming that it's enemies operate in the same way, but I can't understand why they don't do their target reconn and selection properly. They have unrestricted access to 24x7 satellite and drone intelligence, yet they are routinely wasting their bombs on women and children.
Hezbollah have a better civillian / militant kill ratio than the IDF at the moment without access to intelligence of that quality or precision guided weapons. The only rational conclusion I can draw is that the IDF is either deliberately targetting civillians (see Dan Halutz's 10 for 1 promise), or they are criminally negligent. Either way they are killing more civillians than militants and that will simply lead to more civillians becoming militant, so the net result is that their campaign will result in a net gain for the Lebanese resistance movement.
Carrera said:
The accounts were there in print for you to read, they are very clear. Either you have not read them, or you are simply denying that they exist.
Carrera said:
A mistake in this context goes along the lines of :
1) Convoy asks IDF for clearance to move along a pre-deterimined route at a pre-determined time.
2) The IDF grants clearance (as you rightly said they do).
3) By chance an IDF ground attack aircraft just happens to have taken off over 100-200 miles away and just happens to be right over that very same convoy as it crosses into Lebanon.
The repeated coincidences along those lines stretches credibility somewhat, particularly in view of the IDF's response to the UNIFIL posts asking them to ceasefire for over 6 hours.
Carrera said:
So what ? The IDF do the same trick. By the logic that you share with the IDF it is legitimate for any Israeli home to be attacked.
Carrera said:
The same argument goes for Coventry in WWII and every single settlement in Israel today.
Carrera said:
You have rarely responded to the posts or researched the sources Crappy. In response to your post from that dubious character in Germany, I have ONLY found that article coming from the Mel P/Pipes Axis of Evil. That said I have no doubt that Hezbollah and the IDF stash weapons in and around urban areas, which makes it doubly criminal for a military campaign to be based around the destruction of all such weapons using indiscriminate weapons (eg: laser guided bombs, hellfire missiles, artillery etc).
Carrera said:
Indeed, you do that yourself.
Carrera said:
Indeed, you have, fill your boots.
Carrera said:
Actually it is, because all you have done is just make the allegations without supporting them with sources here and now. You keep on doing that and quite frankly it doesn't look like laziness anymore, so all we can conclude is that you make stuff up and use tainted sources intentionally.
Carrera said:
You keep making that claim Crappy, but it is a lie. I have never made the point that Israel is uniquely despotic or barbaric. It is certainly despotic and barbaric towards ~50% of it's population, they don't get the democracy bit, they don't even get granted citizenship. Syria by contrast has taken in over 500,000 refugees from Iraq and Lebanon over the last 4 years, they get more rights than Palestinians who have lived on the same patch of land all their lives.
Carrera said:
I don't see why that is relevent to Israel's mistreatment of the indigenous Gentile population.
Carrera said:
Hey, I am not the one making stuff up and attributing it to ethnic groups.
You have made loads of **** up about Muslims and immigrants, and have been proven categorically wrong each time (as Lim kindly reminded us).
You have specifically stated that you don't want immigrants in this country and you keep claiming that they don't make any contribution and that you resent the existence of Mosques.
Your pet belief is that people of different races can't get on so every race should have it's own ethnically "pure" homeland.
By contrast...
I have repeatedly refuted your lies about immigrants and Muslims with evidence backed by multiple independent sources.
I have stated that I believe that immigrants should be welcome in this country and that I see value in their contribution.
I have specifically stated that I believe that people should get along and that segregation simply does not work. It didn't work in the USA, it didn't work in South Africa, it does not work in Israel. It doesn't seem to work anywhere in fact.
If anyone's mind is fuelled by prejudice it is yours.
Carrera said:Let's face it if the Russian army had been the IDF, or Latvia had been Israel you'd already be an expert on those topics by now.
Unlikely, for the reasons I gave in a previous post that you failed to respond to (presumably because you are in denial over it's contents).
"So what ? Israel has been breaking UN Resolution 242 for 50 years. When Israel complies with 242 I will advocate Hezbollah complying with 1559 (which Israel is also violating as we speak)."
Let's forget resolution 242 for now and focus on more pressing issues: What are your thoughs on this business of Iran flogging women in public or hanging gays by a noose (after 60 odd lashes)? Please address the issue and let's compare intolerant Israel with your "progressive" Iran:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Israel
"Gay rights in Israel remain the most advanced and tolerant in the Middle East. In November 2005, a groundbreaking court decision in Israel ruled that a lesbian spouse could officially adopt a child born to her current partner, by artificial insemination from an anonymous sperm donor."
Then we have this statement which also praises Israel for tolerance of gays and lesbians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Israel
"Israel, South Korea, and Japan (since 2001) are the only countries in Asia where homosexuals are protected with anti-discrimination laws."
Again, let's see how Iran compares with Israel:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/11/21/iran12072.htm
"Sexual acts between women, which are defined differently, are punished with lashes until the fourth offense, when they are also punished with death."
"These abuses have created an atmosphere of terror for lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgender people throughout Iran,” said Stern. “But arrest, torture and execution are not limited to gays and lesbians. Any group of people deemed ‘immoral’ becomes subject to state-sanctioned persecution and even murder.”
O.K. Womens' rights. Take a look at Iran:
"Dr. Phyllis Chesler, a renowned author of fifteen books including the recently-published The Death of Feminism: What's Next in the Struggle for Women's Freedom, told the briefing that "Women in Iran and elsewhere in the Islamic world are viewed as the source of all evil... Increasingly in Iran, women are publicly hung or are slowly and painfully stoned to death for alleged adultery. Public amputations, floggings, and executions are "almost a daily spectacle". The bravery of Iranian (female) demonstrators is therefore heart stopping. They know precisely what can and will happen to them and still they demonstrate. "
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=58587
Let's forget resolution 242 for now and focus on more pressing issues: What are your thoughs on this business of Iran flogging women in public or hanging gays by a noose (after 60 odd lashes)? Please address the issue and let's compare intolerant Israel with your "progressive" Iran:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Israel
"Gay rights in Israel remain the most advanced and tolerant in the Middle East. In November 2005, a groundbreaking court decision in Israel ruled that a lesbian spouse could officially adopt a child born to her current partner, by artificial insemination from an anonymous sperm donor."
Then we have this statement which also praises Israel for tolerance of gays and lesbians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Israel
"Israel, South Korea, and Japan (since 2001) are the only countries in Asia where homosexuals are protected with anti-discrimination laws."
Again, let's see how Iran compares with Israel:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/11/21/iran12072.htm
"Sexual acts between women, which are defined differently, are punished with lashes until the fourth offense, when they are also punished with death."
"These abuses have created an atmosphere of terror for lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgender people throughout Iran,” said Stern. “But arrest, torture and execution are not limited to gays and lesbians. Any group of people deemed ‘immoral’ becomes subject to state-sanctioned persecution and even murder.”
O.K. Womens' rights. Take a look at Iran:
"Dr. Phyllis Chesler, a renowned author of fifteen books including the recently-published The Death of Feminism: What's Next in the Struggle for Women's Freedom, told the briefing that "Women in Iran and elsewhere in the Islamic world are viewed as the source of all evil... Increasingly in Iran, women are publicly hung or are slowly and painfully stoned to death for alleged adultery. Public amputations, floggings, and executions are "almost a daily spectacle". The bravery of Iranian (female) demonstrators is therefore heart stopping. They know precisely what can and will happen to them and still they demonstrate. "
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=58587
darkboong said:
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