It's killing me but.......... - Page 324

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooljazz 

RDO,

that sounds like a good challenge to take on. By the end of this upcoming 6-week block, my new goal is to so a 1x120 in L4 :)

-R

So... it looks like I was a tad optimistic about fulfilling this challenge. I started with 3x40 at sweet spot but had to cut that third interval to 20 minutes. I then attempted 4x30 at low L4 but only completed 3 of them. I did manage to get through a second attempt at 3x40' at sweet spot but I had to lower my power to high L3 to do so but at least I did put in the 2 hours at sweet spot so I feel I am making progress. But extending time spent at L3/L4 is proving harder than I anticipated and I can see that 2 hours at L4 is not a feat to be taken lightly. Might have to turn the music up ;)

-R

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryg45 

 

 

What is the benefit to be in ergo mode and maintaining the above cadence? Thanks.

 

Larry

Don't have a CT or powerbeam,but if I understand correctly, the general way it works is that erg mode maintains a constant reststance no matter how hard you're pedaling.  The rest is application of the specificity principle -- (e.g., to get better at riding uphill, ride uphill).  If you can only reach or maintain that preset wattage at 60 rpm, you're taxing a different system, and will fatigue quickly.  If you spin, you're using your aerobic engine more, and not so much pure brute force.  So for aerobic training purposes you're better off at the higher cadences than lower, but cadence is a pretty individual thing.  I for one have a very choppy pedal stroke, but am more comfortable at 95 rpm than at 85.  

Thanks Hrumpole.  I guess as the workout went along and i dropped my cadence ,it just shows i have more work to do. Our

instructor told us that the idea was to keep up constant power(same cadence) and to tax our aerobic system

as you said.

Maybe it's just me but i found that workout very tough when it is set for 5min@80% and the 1min@AT for over and hour.

BTW i have also been doing 85-95% 'sweet spot training" for 2 hours on Sunday. I find as many people have stated numerous

times on this forum, i recover extremely well from these sessions. I'm hoping these sessions will help to boost my FTP.

Larry

See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrumpole 

Don't have a CT or powerbeam,but if I understand correctly, the general way it works is that erg mode maintains a constant reststance no matter how hard you're pedaling.  The rest is application of the specificity principle -- (e.g., to get better at riding uphill, ride uphill).  If you can only reach or maintain that preset wattage at 60 rpm, you're taxing a different system, and will fatigue quickly.  If you spin, you're using your aerobic engine more, and not so much pure brute force.  So for aerobic training purposes you're better off at the higher cadences than lower, but cadence is a pretty individual thing.  I for one have a very choppy pedal stroke, but am more comfortable at 95 rpm than at 85.  

 

If power is the same but cadence is much lower then your still usuing the the exact same system as you were when pedaling at a higher cadence,Hamish Fergison posted about this a while back if I remember.

So the only thing that would change is you would most likely be recruiting more fast twitch muscles to do the same amount of work and using the same system/s just different mix of fast/slow muscle fibres resulting in earlier fatiuge. 

Some people say you need to to do low cadence drills to improve this.

other more educated poeple will tell you to choose appropriate gearing for the situation and keep improving that way.

Just saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubsy 

If power is the same but cadence is much lower then your still usuing the the exact same system as you were when pedaling at a higher cadence,Hamish Fergison posted about this a while back if I remember.

So the only thing that would change is you would most likely be recruiting more fast twitch muscles to do the same amount of work and using the same system/s just different mix of fast/slow muscle fibres resulting in earlier fatiuge. 

Some people say you need to to do low cadence drills to improve this.

other more educated poeple will tell you to choose appropriate gearing for the situation and keep improving that way.

Just saying.

 

Point taken.  I think.  So what you're saying is that if you're riding at tempo at 60, it's still tempo, you will just fatigue quicker.  Say you're doing a 10 minute interval. Let's take an extreme example-say at 60rpm, you last 1 min, but at 100, you last 10.  So in terms of training effect, why wouldn't you want to be at 100?  So for 1 minute, you're training the same system, but after ten, then what?  How do you quantify minute 2? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrumpole 

Point taken.  I think.  So what you're saying is that if you're riding at tempo at 60, it's still tempo, you will just fatigue quicker.  Say you're doing a 10 minute interval. Let's take an extreme example-say at 60rpm, you last 1 min, but at 100, you last 10.  So in terms of training effect, why wouldn't you want to be at 100?  So for 1 minute, you're training the same system, but after ten, then what?  How do you quantify minute 2? 

 

Cadence is not entirely a red herring. While it's true that duration and power determine the training benefit irrespective of cadence, I regularly train at a cadence well below my preferred cadence. Why? Depending on how I'm geared for a given ride, I might find myself having to ride at a cadence below my preferred cadence in order to ride at my target power. I try to gear for a minimum cadence of 60, but even 60-70 is not fun when my preferred cadence is 85-95. I find that if I don't train to ride at or near FTP at lower cadences, then I struggle with those segments on the road. The bottom line for me is that I prefer to make power with cadence versus torque, so being forced to make power with torque versus cadence is uncomfortable unless I train for it.

This week: Sunday-long ride exploring new roads  (bit of adventure-the best kind of long ride) 3 hrs 15min, rolling hills.  Winter riding definitely underrated.  Best 30 minutes was the last 30 minutes, which is a good sign, and AVS was OK considering number of stops to check maps on phone, etc.

Last night: 3x8 @220, 220, 230, plus 10min OU (212av).  This is somewhat frustrating, as in early january, when CTL was lower, I was more or less at these numbers. RPE also fairly high, as I've cranked out 20 at similar wattages (220-25 regularly, with a PR of 234 in January) but was suffering on these. I seem to be stuck.  Nailed the OU and the first two 8 minute intervals, but cracked on the third 8 min.  

OK-I understand now.  There are some hills that are just too steep to spin up and stay in a zone, for example.  In order to remain in that zone, I have to be willing to pedal very slowly in order to make it to the top without blowing a gasket.  Instead of spinning till the explosion (which I typically do), I'm better off most of the time holding a particular wattage and just going slowly and consistently up the hill.  (When put this way, it seems so simple).  Thank you both for the clarification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooljazz 

So... it looks like I was a tad optimistic about fulfilling this challenge. I started with 3x40 at sweet spot but had to cut that third interval to 20 minutes. I then attempted 4x30 at low L4 but only completed 3 of them. I did manage to get through a second attempt at 3x40' at sweet spot but I had to lower my power to high L3 to do so but at least I did put in the 2 hours at sweet spot so I feel I am making progress. But extending time spent at L3/L4 is proving harder than I anticipated and I can see that 2 hours at L4 is not a feat to be taken lightly. Might have to turn the music up ;)

 

-R

Just jumping in here: are you aiming for 120 at 90+% or so?  That's a great workout!  When I first saw RapDaddyo post about that workout several years ago I thought he was nuts!  Now I can do it and I think it's great (though I still think he's nuts!).  I get there differently than you are trying though.  The way I work up to it is to start with something easier, like 30-45 mins at 90+% followed by 1:15 at 80% (ideally but if you can't do that then dial it back to 70% instead).  Then I increase the 90% part by 15 mins each week so I go 1:00/1:00 then 1:15/0:45, etc.   I find that actually the first couple weeks are the hardest.  After that adding 15 mins is not too bad.  Among other things your FTP will be rising so by the time you get to 2:00 at 90% you'll probably need to adjust your zones.  Caffeine beforehand helps me on these as well.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanierb 

Quote:

Just jumping in here: are you aiming for 120 at 90+% or so?  That's a great workout!  When I first saw RapDaddyo post about that workout several years ago I thought he was nuts!  Now I can do it and I think it's great (though I still think he's nuts!).  I get there differently than you are trying though.  The way I work up to it is to start with something easier, like 30-45 mins at 90+% followed by 1:15 at 80% (ideally but if you can't do that then dial it back to 70% instead).  Then I increase the 90% part by 15 mins each week so I go 1:00/1:00 then 1:15/0:45, etc.   I find that actually the first couple weeks are the hardest.  After that adding 15 mins is not too bad.  Among other things your FTP will be rising so by the time you get to 2:00 at 90% you'll probably need to adjust your zones.  Caffeine beforehand helps me on these as well.
 

 

Lanierb, yes that's exactly what I'm trying to do. I think it's working. I've managed to get through a couple of the 3x40' sessions at high L3 and a couple of 3x30' at low L4. It's been just about 2 weeks and indeed it is starting to get slightly easier (though they are still damn tough and I agree that RDO must be crazy). I'll be in Florida the next couple of weeks, with a chance to ride outdoors, so I may give your approach a try, thanks. I'm thinking it will be easier riding outdoors though so the true test will be after I return and have to do these on the trainer again. Fortunately, daylight savings time will kick in not long after that which will allow me back out on the roads again. Not soon enough as the trainer is driving me crazy. The 2 hours is definitely a worth challenge though. I can feel it in the legs and body so much more than the 1+ hour sessions. I feel it will reap dividends once race season gets underway.

cheers!

-R

Sat: local hero (shorter intervals) plus 20 min in the sweet spot (195w) (Extra shot at 95 percent)

Monday: 2x20 @ 214, 215 plus 3:30 @ 250.  RPE dropping slightly, and execution improving (smoother graphs).  Recovery really good (HR from 174 to 124 in 2 minutes).  Breakthrough hopefully coming soon.  Adding that extra 20 min really seems to help once the intensity is dialed down so that it's challenging, but not a gut buster.  CTL now at about 50.  70-80 qualifies as a "base", I think.  

Absolute crap.  3x8: 220 (executed properly) 215 (executed properly) 220 (complete s--tshow).   10 min OU executed properly (208), followed by 10 minutes of SST that felt like an all-out sprint.  WAY worse than last workout.  Evolution in reverse.

A strange quandary. I'm going better than I ought to be and I have a hard time believing that just chucking in the odd 5 minutes of hell is responsible for it... Maybe I need a big rethink of my training and drag in a barrage of shorter intervals to pull my threshold power to where it should be rather than the usual masses of L3 till ya blow and L4 to push it up gradually.

Maybe its time to pull the laptop out with "the thing that should not be" interval countdown timer on it... The summer of 96 was the last time I did those and my legs still hurt just thinking about them. Death on a KingCycle rig... Ugggg. A few weeks of these will get the 250+ mile brevets done faster :) LOL