or Connect
Cycling Forums › Forums › Regional Cycling Forums › UK and Europe › Carlton Reid on QR safety
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Carlton Reid on QR safety

post #1 of 348
Thread Starter 
Carlton Reid has a puff piece about a new "Secure QR system" on bikebiz:
<http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=6427>

While promoting this new mechanism as "safer" than the existing system,
he also insists that "industry experts say QRs are safe, when used
correctly".

This assertion is backed up with a quote from "industry expert" Bob
Burns (actually Trek's *lawyer*), which is nothing more than a
boilerplate denial dating to a few years ago when the QR/disk issue
first surfaced.

Strangely, alongside this there is no space in his article for these
quotes from people who actually have some relevant engineering and
technical experience:

---
Chris Juden, Technical officer, CTC:
"It's not just scaremongering, but all hangs together and makes
perfect sense. In fact I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it before."

"changes must be made to the way disk brakes and front wheels are
attached to forks"

Jobst Brandt, author, "The Bicycle Wheel":
"The more I see on this the more I find the defense of the status quo
stranger than fiction. Why are writers trying to say that it can't
happen? What motivates writers to claim that disc brakes as currently
offered are not a hazard?

The mechanism has been clearly stated, the forces have been identified
in magnitude and direction, and credible descriptions of failures have
been presented. What's going on here! There is no easter bunny.
Believe it!"

John Forester, author, "Effective Cycling":
"All that I can say is gross negligence."

Unnamed Marzocchi Tech Support:
"It is recommended that an 8" rotor is not used on a standard axle fork
because the forces exerted on the wheel can potentially pull the axle
out of the dropouts."

Brant Richards, On-One:
"From the next batch, our rigid forks will have dropouts which are
angled forward at 45degrees or thereabouts.

This is because when I was coming home, and pulling a stoppy outside my
driveway, I kept finding the front wheel shifted in the dropout."

Dave Gray, Surly:
"You are correct. I've noticed the problem on my Karate Monkey fork."

Ben Cooper, Kinetics, describing his experiment:
"Conclusion: From the above, there seems to be an effect from the disc
brake which causes the quick release to loosen."
---


And even more strangely, although he mentions the ongoing Walmart case
concerning children's bikes, and refers repeatedly to user error, he
also didn't find space to mention the recent out of court settlement in
which a manufacturer paid off an (experienced adult) rider who was
seriously injured by a front wheel ejection on a disk+QR fork.


James
--
James Annan
see web pages for email
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/
http://julesandjames.blogspot.com/
post #2 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

Werehatrack wrote:
> Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
> brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter. Is it
> possible for you to accept the fact that for the majority of the
> readers, the evidence thus far published is not persuasive that there
> is a serious problem here which is not related to user error?


Why do you claim to speak for the majority of readers, most of whom
have expressed no public opinion on the matter?

...d
post #3 of 348
Thread Starter 

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

Werehatrack wrote:

> Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
> brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter.


However, those who read Carlton's article on Bikebiz might think it safe
to draw the conclusion that "industry experts say QRs are safe, when
used correctly", even though numerous industry experts have quite
clearly expressed the contrary view.

They will also not know that one case was recently settled in favour of
the rider.

James
--
James Annan
see web pages for email
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/
http://julesandjames.blogspot.com/
post #4 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

Tim McNamara writes:

>> Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of
>> disc brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the
>> matter. Is it possible for you to accept the fact that for the
>> majority of the readers, the evidence thus far published is not
>> persuasive that there is a serious problem here which is not
>> related to user error?


> All that would prove is that the majority of readers lack an
> adequate understanding of science. Given how weak science education
> is in the US, this is not a surprise.


> The situation with disk brakes is very simple. It is a faulty
> design that poses a danger to the people who use disk brakes.
> Current disk brake designs cause an ejection force that can push the
> front wheel out of the dropout. There is no way for that the be
> refuted, although once again the strange phenomenon of people
> defending bad design will no doubt rear its head in this thread.


Yes. So why is this kind response to technical failures so common, be
that valve stem separation, spoke failures, crank failures, stem
failures and many more. They seem so personal and vehement that one
would guess that the writers were the manufacturers themselves. I
sense a strong apologists tone in many of these.

Jobst Brandt
post #5 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

"David Martin" <martin-family@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1139061323.586222.111500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Werehatrack wrote:
>> Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
>> brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter. Is it
>> possible for you to accept the fact that for the majority of the
>> readers, the evidence thus far published is not persuasive that there
>> is a serious problem here which is not related to user error?

>
> Why do you claim to speak for the majority of readers, most of whom
> have expressed no public opinion on the matter?
>
> ..d
>

Does the fact that the majority of people have expressed no public opinion
(read; interest) speak volumes as to the severity of the problem? Do YOU
know the relevant statistics to say that this is a major problem or design
flaw?

Life is inherently risky and I for one would rather check my qr's before a
ride and have disk brakes than try to do what I do with rim brakes.

Just my 2p

Andy H
post #6 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

Andy H wrote:
> "David Martin" <martin-family@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1139061323.586222.111500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Werehatrack wrote:
>>
>>>Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
>>>brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter. Is it
>>>possible for you to accept the fact that for the majority of the
>>>readers, the evidence thus far published is not persuasive that there
>>>is a serious problem here which is not related to user error?

>>
>>Why do you claim to speak for the majority of readers, most of whom
>>have expressed no public opinion on the matter?
>>
>>..d
>>

>
> Does the fact that the majority of people have expressed no public opinion
> (read; interest) speak volumes as to the severity of the problem? Do YOU
> know the relevant statistics to say that this is a major problem or design
> flaw?
>
> Life is inherently risky and I for one would rather check my qr's before a
> ride


And what if it happened after 3 hours of riding even when you checked it
before the ride?

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons
post #7 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

David wrote:
> James Annan wrote:
>
>> Werehatrack wrote:
>>
>>> Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
>>> brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter.

>>
>>
>>
>> However, those who read Carlton's article on Bikebiz might think it
>> safe to draw the conclusion that "industry experts say QRs are safe,
>> when used correctly", even though numerous industry experts have quite
>> clearly expressed the contrary view.
>>
>> They will also not know that one case was recently settled in favour
>> of the rider.
>>
>> James

>
>
> Out of court settlements almost always include a statement that the
> plantiff is not admitting liability. It is often less costly to pay a
> small settlement than it is to defend the claim, particularly if the
> jurisdiction is known to be plaintiff-favorable.


That first plantiff should be defendant.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons
post #8 of 348
Thread Starter 

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

Tim McNamara wrote:

> James Annan <still_the_same_me@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>Werehatrack wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of
>>>disc brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the
>>>matter.

>>
>>However, those who read Carlton's article on Bikebiz might think it
>>safe to draw the conclusion that "industry experts say QRs are safe,
>>when used correctly", even though numerous industry experts have
>>quite clearly expressed the contrary view.

>
>
> Don't appeal to authority. Just state the facts, which are simple and
> straightforward.


I'm only pointing out that Carlton's appeal to authority isn't even
honest, let alone correct. He knows that numerous industry experts
dispute what he wrote.

James
--
James Annan
see web pages for email
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/
http://julesandjames.blogspot.com/
post #9 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

"Richard" <richard@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:ds35qv$8q3$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Snip -
>......but as I neither sell, use, maintain, nor have any access to disk
>brakes or QR axles, I could add nothing useful to the debate.
>
> R.

Then do just that, you have no potential problems do you? Do you have the
statistics to hand?

Andy H
post #10 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

"G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:11ua6ri338v5241@corp.supernews.com...
> Andy H wrote:
>> "David Martin" <martin-family@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:1139061323.586222.111500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>Werehatrack wrote:
>>>
>>>>Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
>>>>brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter. Is it
>>>>possible for you to accept the fact that for the majority of the
>>>>readers, the evidence thus far published is not persuasive that there
>>>>is a serious problem here which is not related to user error?
>>>
>>>Why do you claim to speak for the majority of readers, most of whom
>>>have expressed no public opinion on the matter?
>>>
>>>..d
>>>

>>
>> Does the fact that the majority of people have expressed no public
>> opinion (read; interest) speak volumes as to the severity of the problem?
>> Do YOU know the relevant statistics to say that this is a major problem
>> or design flaw?
>>
>> Life is inherently risky and I for one would rather check my qr's before
>> a ride

>
> And what if it happened after 3 hours of riding even when you checked it
> before the ride?
>
> Greg
>

Life sucks and **** happens, our (my anyway) pastime is rife with risk. If
the design is inherently flawed why have we not all been maimed by our
disk/qr problems? (As MV would no doubt wish :-).

We drive our cars with unsafe airbags and inherently flawed seat restraints.
Trains crash and so do planes. I'm not trying to be a troll here but should
we get some perspective on this.

Andy H
post #11 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

Andy H wrote:
>
> Life sucks and **** happens, our (my anyway) pastime is rife with risk. If
> the design is inherently flawed why have we not all been maimed by our
> disk/qr problems?


As I understand it, it's because it takes particular circumstances to
make the failure likely - for example, repeated very hard braking,
especially on bumpy descents. Most riders do not encounter those
circumstances.

But those circumstances are part of the normal design conditions for
certain bikes. If a design injures a person who's using it in the
manner for which it was designed, there's a problem. The occurrence
doesn't have to be common for this to be true.

> We drive our cars with unsafe airbags and inherently flawed seat restraints.
> Trains crash and so do planes. I'm not trying to be a troll here but should
> we get some perspective on this.


I won't defend airbags. But I'll point out that when people are
injured by airbags, train or plane crashes, the law does not say "Oh,
get over it. You knew that **** happens."

- Frank Krygowski
post #12 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

I have come here not to express an opinion on the debate, but rather
amazement at the fact that Annan is still posting here about it.
post #13 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

Andy H wrote:
>
> Life sucks and **** happens, our (my anyway) pastime is rife with risk. If
> the design is inherently flawed why have we not all been maimed by our
> disk/qr problems? (As MV would no doubt wish :-).


Who is "MV"?

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

"They [hominids] ARE acceptable prey, ESPECIALLY mountain bikers."
- M.V.

"We are discussing whether humans as prey are 'natural'. Clearly,
they are, or that mountain lion wouldn't have been trying to eat a
human." - M.V.

"Abnormal would be a mountain lion speaking English." - M.V.

"Mountain lions have always eaten humans, throughout our evolutionary
history." - M.V.
post #14 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

In article <EM7Ff.80316$zt1.11775@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net>,
"Andy H" <Oohdamnit@notagain.com> wrote:

> "David Martin" <martin-family@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1139061323.586222.111500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Werehatrack wrote:
> >> Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
> >> brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter. Is it
> >> possible for you to accept the fact that for the majority of the
> >> readers, the evidence thus far published is not persuasive that there
> >> is a serious problem here which is not related to user error?

> >
> > Why do you claim to speak for the majority of readers, most of whom
> > have expressed no public opinion on the matter?
> >
> > ..d
> >

> Does the fact that the majority of people have expressed no public opinion
> (read; interest) speak volumes as to the severity of the problem? Do YOU
> know the relevant statistics to say that this is a major problem or design
> flaw?
>
> Life is inherently risky and I for one would rather check my qr's before a
> ride and have disk brakes than try to do what I do with rim brakes.


I draw inferences from the fact that those who claim there
is no problem refuse to comment upon the force diagram.

--
Michael Press
post #15 of 348

Re: Carlton Reid on QR safety

> While promoting this new mechanism as "safer" than the existing system, he
> also insists that "industry experts say QRs are safe, when used
> correctly".
>
> This assertion is backed up with a quote from "industry expert" Bob Burns
> (actually Trek's *lawyer*), which is nothing more than a boilerplate
> denial dating to a few years ago when the QR/disk issue first surfaced.

=======================
"In 2003, Bob Burns, Trek's US-based General Counsel, told BikeBiz.com:

"Virtually all 'defective quick release' claims that I have seen relate to
an improperly used quick release. Either the consumer has ridden with the QR
open; ridden with the QR closed like a wing nut (rather than closing it over
the cam); or ridden with insufficient tightness to the adjusting nut to
engage the cam."
=======================

Where, exactly, does the quote from Bob Burns say anything whatsoever about
your QR/disk issue? He's addressing only one thing in the quote given- quick
releases. Nothing about disk brakes.

For that matter, not one place in the article is anything said about brakes.
Just quick releases. And the timing and development w/regards Pacific
Bicycles implementing a new quick release design probably has everything to
do with the lawsuit they got hit with (quick releases supposedly failing in
the field on low-end kids bikes) and nothing to do with disk brakes.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"James Annan" <still_the_same_me@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44jhcaF2gkulU1@individual.net...
> Carlton Reid has a puff piece about a new "Secure QR system" on bikebiz:
> <http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=6427>
>
> While promoting this new mechanism as "safer" than the existing system, he
> also insists that "industry experts say QRs are safe, when used
> correctly".
>
> This assertion is backed up with a quote from "industry expert" Bob Burns
> (actually Trek's *lawyer*), which is nothing more than a boilerplate
> denial dating to a few years ago when the QR/disk issue first surfaced.
>
> Strangely, alongside this there is no space in his article for these
> quotes from people who actually have some relevant engineering and
> technical experience:
>
> ---
> Chris Juden, Technical officer, CTC:
> "It's not just scaremongering, but all hangs together and makes perfect
> sense. In fact I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it before."
>
> "changes must be made to the way disk brakes and front wheels are attached
> to forks"
>
> Jobst Brandt, author, "The Bicycle Wheel":
> "The more I see on this the more I find the defense of the status quo
> stranger than fiction. Why are writers trying to say that it can't
> happen? What motivates writers to claim that disc brakes as currently
> offered are not a hazard?
>
> The mechanism has been clearly stated, the forces have been identified in
> magnitude and direction, and credible descriptions of failures have been
> presented. What's going on here! There is no easter bunny. Believe it!"
>
> John Forester, author, "Effective Cycling":
> "All that I can say is gross negligence."
>
> Unnamed Marzocchi Tech Support:
> "It is recommended that an 8" rotor is not used on a standard axle fork
> because the forces exerted on the wheel can potentially pull the axle out
> of the dropouts."
>
> Brant Richards, On-One:
> "From the next batch, our rigid forks will have dropouts which are angled
> forward at 45degrees or thereabouts.
>
> This is because when I was coming home, and pulling a stoppy outside my
> driveway, I kept finding the front wheel shifted in the dropout."
>
> Dave Gray, Surly:
> "You are correct. I've noticed the problem on my Karate Monkey fork."
>
> Ben Cooper, Kinetics, describing his experiment:
> "Conclusion: From the above, there seems to be an effect from the disc
> brake which causes the quick release to loosen."
> ---
>
>
> And even more strangely, although he mentions the ongoing Walmart case
> concerning children's bikes, and refers repeatedly to user error, he also
> didn't find space to mention the recent out of court settlement in which a
> manufacturer paid off an (experienced adult) rider who was seriously
> injured by a front wheel ejection on a disk+QR fork.
>
>
> James
> --
> James Annan
> see web pages for email
> http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/
> http://julesandjames.blogspot.com/
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: UK and Europe
Cycling Forums › Forums › Regional Cycling Forums › UK and Europe › Carlton Reid on QR safety