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TSS vs. TRIMPS

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
can someone compare and contrast the pros and cons of each?

is it true that TRIMPS (the zone weighted variety) may be better at predicting training "stress" (i.e. am I going to crash and burn) while TSS might do a better job at predicting training "stumulus" (i.e. how much am i provoking addaption though exersise 'stimulus')?
post #2 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
can someone compare and contrast the pros and cons of each?

is it true that TRIMPS (the zone weighted variety) may be better at predicting training "stress" (i.e. am I going to crash and burn) while TSS might do a better job at predicting training "stumulus" (i.e. how much am i provoking addaption though exersise 'stimulus')?
1) TRIMP is based upon heart rate, and thus may be somewhat more variable due to extraneous influences.

2) TRIMP is based upon heart rate, and thus gives you less "credit" for supramaximal efforts (i.e., there is a ceiling effect, in that heart rate can't exceed maximal heart rate).

3) On the other hand, TRIMP places more weighting upon intensity, which may tend to counteract the impact of point #2 above.

Philosophically, you could argue that since power is the independent variable and heart rate is a dependent variable, TSS is a measure of stress, while TRIMP is a measure of strain. If you accept this premise, then what you have concluded above would, at least at first, seem logical. However, not all TSS points are created equal, which makes it difficult to say that TSS is a direct measure of the training stimulus (i.e., you have to take the composition of said TSS into account). Moreover, which is a better measure of stress vs. strain hinges in part on the considerations listed in 1-3 above. I would therefore say that the best way to view them is as simply two different ways of estimating the training load, one based on heart rate and one based on power, and essentially leave it at that. (Certainly, when used as inputs for the impulse-response model of Bannister there isn't a lot of reason to favor one over the other...although in the few cases I've examined, which happen to include a lot of supramaximal intervals, TSS seems to work a bit better.)
post #3 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by acoggan
However, not all TSS points are created equal, which makes it difficult to say that TSS is a direct measure of the training stimulus (i.e., you have to take the composition of said TSS into account).
One of my fantasies for cyclingpeaks is a pie graph breaking down TSS by zone (rather than TSS by hours). In fact, I'd like to be able to use TSS as an "x axis" in a lot of places: ride charts, etc.

Quote:
(Certainly, when used as inputs for the impulse-response model of Bannister there isn't a lot of reason to favor one over the other...although in the few cases I've examined, which happen to include a lot of supramaximal intervals, TSS seems to work a bit better.)
Andy, my silly pubmed attempts at finding this "Bannister impulse-response model" are turning up nothing like a "model." I'd be really interested in a reference to anything that offers enough detail, e.g., for the creation of an excel spreadsheet.
post #4 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmavm
One of my fantasies for cyclingpeaks is a pie graph breaking down TSS by zone (rather than TSS by hours). In fact, I'd like to be able to use TSS as an "x axis" in a lot of places: ride charts, etc.
Given the way TSS is (currently) calculated, that really isn't possible. That is, TSS is based on what you did for the ride as a whole, and isn't easily decomposed into various parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmavm
Andy, my silly pubmed attempts at finding this "Bannister impulse-response model" are turning up nothing like a "model." I'd be really interested in a reference to anything that offers enough detail, e.g., for the creation of an excel spreadsheet.
Send me an e at acoggan at earthlink dot net (as a reminder) and I can send you a lengthy list of references. You'll need something a little more powerful/flexible than Excel to do the calculations, though.
post #5 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

I'm faced with the dilemma of using a HRM outdoors on my mountain bike and doing watts based training indoors on my Computrainer. Is it possible to correlate TRIMPS to TSS?

I was thinking about creating one or more workouts on my Computrainer and comparing the TRIMPS from my HRM with the TSS score from my Computrainer. Would that work?

Thank you.

post #6 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

Is there any way to correlate a TRIMPS score to a TSS score?

I use an HRM outdoors when training on my mountain bike which gives me my TRIMPS and a Computrainer indoors which gives me my TSS. It would be nice to roughly approximate what a TRIMPS score is to a TSS score since my coach and my primary training diary use TSS.

I do understand that TRIMPS = exercise duration x average HR x an intensity-dependent weighting factor and TSS = (s x W x IF)/(FTP x 3600).

Two possibilities for a getting a rough idea would be to ride my Computrainer with its HRM while at the same time using my Polar HRM. I'd be able to determine both the TRIMPS and TSS score for that particular session. I'm not sure how useful that would be in extrapolating to other workouts though. I guess if I did this enough times in sessions of varying intensity and duration I'd begin to get a rough feel of what one score is to another.

Alternatively, I believe the Computrainer generates enough raw HR data that I could accurately convert TSS to TRIMPS on all my indoors sessions but really what I want to do is convert TRIMPS to TSS, not the other way around.

Thank you.

post #7 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

Also, here is a web based list of related IR references w/ links to the full text articles

http://www.fascatcoaching.com/TSTWKT/
post #8 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by fas_cat
Also, here is a web based list of related IR references w/ links to the full text articles

http://www.fascatcoaching.com/TSTWKT/
Excellent reading. Thanks.
I didn't see anything in there about converting a TRIMPS score (HR-based) to a TSS score (power-based). I'm a Noob to systematic training so I initially thought there was probably some sort of conversion formula much like converting Fahrenheit to Celsius. Now I see it's more like comparing apples to oranges. Hopefully someone will prove me wrong and suggest a method of conversion.

Regards.

post #9 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

[QUOTE=srwings]Excellent reading. Thanks.
I didn't see anything in there about converting a TRIMPS score (HR-based) to a TSS score (power-based).

As far as I know there is not. As an athlete or a coach I believe you need to choose either/or up front beforehand. Naturally, for single sport cyclists -- go TSS all the way.

If I were or I coached multisport athletes, I'd give TRIMPS a real go. Collect HR data for all 3 sports (nice and consistent) but also use power for the bike and TSS. You could actually study the TRIMP to the TSS.

post #10 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

One could make a strong argument that TRIMPS is really a TSS and TSS is really a TRIMPS.
post #11 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by john979
One could make a strong argument that TRIMPS is really a TSS and TSS is really a TRIMPS.
I imagine that they are fairly interchangable except if you're doing a lot of very high intensity interval training - see the last couple of plots here for my reasoning:

http://www.cyclecoach.com/andycoggan...d/uksport1.ppt
post #12 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by acoggan
I imagine that they are fairly interchangable except if you're doing a lot of very high intensity interval training - see the last couple of plots here for my reasoning:

http://www.cyclecoach.com/andycoggan...d/uksport1.ppt
Andy;

Hence my comment, as TSS is more responsive to "impulse." Moreover since external factors such as heat affect HR, the overall "score" provided by TRIMPS is indicative of the total workout stress, not just the response the stress. Hence, TRIMPS would underscore a ride, say with many short, steep hills and overscore a steady-state ride on a hot day, at least in terms of the work and its training effect.
post #13 of 29
Thread Starter 

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by john979
Andy;

Hence my comment, as TSS is more responsive to "impulse." Moreover since external factors such as heat affect HR, the overall "score" provided by TRIMPS is indicative of the total workout stress, not just the response the stress. Hence, TRIMPS would underscore a ride, say with many short, steep hills and overscore a steady-state ride on a hot day, at least in terms of the work and its training effect.
this kind of aludes to where i was coming from in the first place... although my language was a bit off...

i.e. TSS is really a good indicator of Training Stress (i.e. how much your training benefit you get from a workout) where as TRIMPS is a good indicator of training strain i.e. how bagged you will be the next and coming days (but not for supermaximal type stuff)... sometimes they track really well but sometimes, like in the example you gave in extreme heat, humidty etc. they are not necessarily the same thing.

e.g. i did a long 100km crit in 2006.. it was the 1st really hot day. max daily temp before that was around teens to 20C and then on the day of the crit it went up to 32C (60sF -> 90F) an humid. i thought i was going to die! when i looked at my power meter it was in tempo territory but HR was more indicative of how i was feeling. and the next few days i was in a bad way. TSS score gave me how much training benefit i got from the workout but if i had looked at my TRIMPS score i would have likely seen just how much that workout had given me a kick to the head.
post #14 of 29

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

Who tracks TRIMPS and how do you calculate it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
this kind of aludes to where i was coming from in the first place... although my language was a bit off...

i.e. TSS is really a good indicator of Training Stress (i.e. how much your training benefit you get from a workout) where as TRIMPS is a good indicator of training strain i.e. how bagged you will be the next and coming days (but not for supermaximal type stuff)... sometimes they track really well but sometimes, like in the example you gave in extreme heat, humidty etc. they are not necessarily the same thing.

e.g. i did a long 100km crit in 2006.. it was the 1st really hot day. max daily temp before that was around teens to 20C and then on the day of the crit it went up to 32C (60sF -> 90F) an humid. i thought i was going to die! when i looked at my power meter it was in tempo territory but HR was more indicative of how i was feeling. and the next few days i was in a bad way. TSS score gave me how much training benefit i got from the workout but if i had looked at my TRIMPS score i would have likely seen just how much that workout had given me a kick to the head.
post #15 of 29
Thread Starter 

Re: TSS vs. TRIMPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustCurious
Who tracks TRIMPS and how do you calculate it?
i used to use iSMART Train (i'm on a mac and it's a native mac app) which now can import power files but started out as just a HR monitor graphing app... and they calculate and use TRIMPS

has some on the calculation here
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