Best bike for the money

tonyfranciozi wrote:
> I've been riding a modified(drop bars, no fenders, ect) armstrong 3-
> speed for the past year or so and am looking for something a bit more
> performance oriented. My question is, what is the best road bike for
> the money? Obviously thats nothing with collector appeal (cinelli,
> masi, ect) I'm mostly looking at lugged steel frames as this is what
> i'm familiar with. Are there any good quality underrated frames out
> there? Looking for something under $400.

Modern lugged steel frames aren't going to be inexpensive. If cost is
your main concern, look for a complete bike with an aluminum frame.

The Trek 1000 comes to mind as a good candidate (if you're looking for
a road bike):
http://brandscycle.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=7009

What kind of riding do you want to do? Maybe a hybrid bike would be a
better (and less expensive) choice.

Art Harris

On Mar 27, 1:36 pm, "Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:
> tonyfranciozi wrote:
> > I've been riding a modified(drop bars, no fenders, ect) armstrong 3-
> > speed for the past year or so and am looking for something a bit more
> > performance oriented. My question is, what is the best road bike for
> > the money? Obviously thats nothing with collector appeal (cinelli,
> > masi, ect) I'm mostly looking at lugged steel frames as this is what
> > i'm familiar with. Are there any good quality underrated frames out
> > there? Looking for something under $400.
>
> Modern lugged steel frames aren't going to be inexpensive. If cost is
> your main concern, look for a complete bike with an aluminum frame.
>
> The Trek 1000 comes to mind as a good candidate (if you're looking for
> a road bike):http://brandscycle.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=7009
>
> What kind of riding do you want to do? Maybe a hybrid bike would be a
> better (and less expensive) choice.
>
> Art Harris

I'm mostly looking at older lugged frames. The bike i have now is
fine for commuting i'm looking for a rode bike to go on fast rides
with. Also, prices being equal, is it better to buy a new midrange
frame or an old high end frame?

On Mar 27, 1:44 pm, "tonyfranciozi" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 27, 1:36 pm, "Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > tonyfranciozi wrote:
> > > I've been riding a modified(drop bars, no fenders, ect) armstrong 3-
> > > speed for the past year or so and am looking for something a bit more
> > > performance oriented. My question is, what is the best road bike for
> > > the money? Obviously thats nothing with collector appeal (cinelli,
> > > masi, ect) I'm mostly looking at lugged steel frames as this is what
> > > i'm familiar with. Are there any good quality underrated frames out
> > > there? Looking for something under $400.
>
> > Modern lugged steel frames aren't going to be inexpensive. If cost is
> > your main concern, look for a complete bike with an aluminum frame.
>
> > The Trek 1000 comes to mind as a good candidate (if you're looking for
> > a road bike):http://brandscycle.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=7009
>
> > What kind of riding do you want to do? Maybe a hybrid bike would be a
> > better (and less expensive) choice.
>
> > Art Harris
>
> I'm mostly looking at older lugged frames. The bike i have now is
> fine for commuting i'm looking for a rode bike to go on fast rides
> with. Also, prices being equal, is it better to buy a new midrange
> frame or an old high end frame?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I think you're going to have a lot of trouble in that price range
finding a new "real" road bike. If you do find one and are happy with
it, let us know what it was!

For comparison purposes, I got an email from a LBS in the area via
NEMBA who's doing a big sale on leftovers. Even with the leftover
discounts, they didn't have anything with drop bars for under $584.
There 2 cheapest options were $584, and it was all up from there.
These prices seemed inline with what I am used to seeing, unless I'm
in a "bike section" of a store that does a million things, and isn't
too concerned with bikes (i.e. Philbrick's, shady grumble grumble).
I'd avoid these places.

They did have a couple flat bar road/fitness bikes for not too much
over 400, and every hybrid but one was under or around $400, with
Giants from $270 & Bianchis from $320.

That said my speculation is that you'd be better off going used,
unless some sort of hybrid/flat bar deal fits your needs. Where
you're already riding on drops and looking to step up the performance,
I doubt these less expensive and heavier bikes will be in line with
your needs. If you're shopping used I suggest the best fitting bike
you can find, as opposed to worrying yourself trying to find a
specific model in your size.

tony franciozi wrote:
> I'm mostly looking at older lugged frames. The bike i have now is
> fine for commuting i'm looking for a rode bike to go on fast rides
> with. Also, prices being equal, is it better to buy a new midrange
> frame or an old high end frame.

Unless you have a good source of parts, it's more cost effective to
buy a complete bike. That being said, I've built up at least three
frames over the years for various reasons (all lugged steel).

If you want to buy a used, lugged-steel frame, there are lots of good
ones on eBay. Many mid to late '80s frames were of good quality, and
provided better geometry and tire clearance that most modern frames.

Things to watch out for: French or Swiss threads which will be hard or
impossible to get parts for. Frames designed for long reach brakes.
Frames with other that standard down tube shift bosses.

I currently have two mid '80s steel frames fiited out with modern 9-
speed drivetrains. The best of both worlds!

Art Harris

On 27 Mar 2007 10:23:03 -0700, "tonyfranciozi"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Are there any good quality underrated frames out
>there? Looking for something under $400.

I think that a Soma Smoothie or Smoothie comes close to what you are
looking for. It isn't lugged but it is very well designed and made.
www.somafab.com

> I'm mostly looking at older lugged frames. The bike i have now is
> fine for commuting i'm looking for a rode bike to go on fast rides
> with. Also, prices being equal, is it better to buy a new midrange
> frame or an old high end frame?

I wouldn't get too hung up on construction methods, or even materials. Older
lugged steel frames, for example, are far more likely to get damaged in a
frontal crash than their modern tig-welded cousins, which are often built
with stronger air-hardened steels. Lugged steel frames (at least high-end
ones) have an aesthetic thing going for them you don't find elsewhere. But
from a functional standpoint (and functional is really what you should be
looking for in an entry-level first road bike), your concerns should be-

#1: Fit. Don't compromise on fit. Getting a great deal on a bike that's the
wrong size is a bad move.

#2: Suitability to task. Double or triple crankset? Don't just think about
today; think about the sort of places you might want to ride in the summer.
Or next year. And if you see yourself carrying much while commuting, you're
going to want something with a bit longer wheelbase and clearance for wider
tires.

Your price range is underneath what you can buy a high-quality new road bike
for; generally you're going to be in the $600-$700 range. The advantages of
buying new will be that, at a better shop, you're getting fit expertise
along with the bike, and a place that maintains a sense of ownership if
anything's not quite right. Also a warranty.

You *may* get a better deal on a used bike... but you have to be careful.
Aside from getting the fit correct (which is more than just standing over
the bike), you'll also want to inspect it carefully for any signs of having
been crashed, check the rims for any denting or excessive wear on the sides,
and make sure that any upgrades you might want to do for it won't end up
driving the cost up higher than a new bike (adding STI integrated
brake/shift levers, for example). Also, many people simply want more than
their old bike is worth. Still, there can be some killer deals out there if
you're patient.

You might check out this article on our website, which will help you
evaluate bikes when you test ride them. It's one of the few things I've
written that's entirely brand & material neutral.
www.ChainReaction.com/roadbikethestrides.htm.

Good luck and have fun riding-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"tonyfranciozi" <[email protected]> wrote in message

On 27 Mar 2007 10:36:02 -0700, "Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:

>tonyfranciozi wrote:
>> I've been riding a modified(drop bars, no fenders, ect) armstrong 3-
>> speed for the past year or so and am looking for something a bit more
>> performance oriented. My question is, what is the best road bike for
>> the money? Obviously thats nothing with collector appeal (cinelli,
>> masi, ect) I'm mostly looking at lugged steel frames as this is what
>> i'm familiar with. Are there any good quality underrated frames out
>> there? Looking for something under $400.
>
>Modern lugged steel frames aren't going to be inexpensive. If cost is
>your main concern, look for a complete bike with an aluminum frame.
>
>The Trek 1000 comes to mind as a good candidate (if you're looking for
>a road bike):
>http://brandscycle.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=7009
>
>What kind of riding do you want to do? Maybe a hybrid bike would be a
>better (and less expensive) choice.

Yeah.

And if you know bikes well *perhaps* the best value would be a used
bike.
--
JT
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tonyfranciozi wrote:
> I've been riding a modified(drop bars, no fenders, ect) armstrong 3-
> speed for the past year or so and am looking for something a bit more
> performance oriented. My question is, what is the best road bike for
> the money? Obviously thats nothing with collector appeal (cinelli,
> masi, ect) I'm mostly looking at lugged steel frames as this is what
> i'm familiar with. Are there any good quality underrated frames out
> there? Looking for something under $400.

For under $400 in lugged steel, you are either looking at used bikes or
theft. With used, you have to concentrate more on getting your size
than anything else. With theft, you have to get out of the shop before
someone sees you. You choose.

I recommend you unbend a bit in terms of frame material. You can get a
halfway-decent bike for that money, but the frame will be aluminum.

--

David L. Johnson

Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig...
You soon find out the pig likes it!

tonyfranciozi wrote:

> I'm mostly looking at older lugged frames. The bike i have now is
> fine for commuting i'm looking for a rode bike to go on fast rides
> with. Also, prices being equal, is it better to buy a new midrange
> frame or an old high end frame?

It really is not clear. Once you get old enough to find a high-end
frame at that price, you may be getting into either obsolete components
or the possibility of hidden damage.

But even mid-range bikes will be more than $400, by quite a bit. That
price range is essentially hybrids and mountain bikes, nothing for fast
club rides.

--

David L. Johnson

Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig...
You soon find out the pig likes it!

At under $400, any Raleigh 531 frameset from the 1970's or 1980's has
a good combination of lightness and durability. Prices on ebay start
at about $100 + s/h for a 531-throughout frameset with problematic
paint, and go up to about $400 for a frame in like-new condition.
Often, you can get a nice complete bike for $200-$400. But: stay away
from technium frames.

The great thing about 1970's Raleighs is that all of the threads
became today's standard, i.e. 1" BSC headset, 68 mm BSC BB, 27.2
seatpost, and most of them can be cold-set, to 126mm or even 130mm if
needed (but I wouldn't try 135mm, that's pushing your luck.) Most of
them have braze-ons for top-tube cable routing, and pyramid / QBP
(biggest wholesaler) offers downtube 1 1/8th cable-clamps; Minoura
makes nice stainless waterbottle cages for bottle mounting - ta dah!

Almost all of these bikes accept fenders, have eyelets, and need a
47-57mm brakeset. That means either a retro brakeset (weinmann 610,
500, dia-compe nearly-anything), or a tektro mid-reach dual-pivot
would work best on these frames.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Oh, and in the $100-$200/frame class, you might also consider a lugged
steel TREK frameset. The late 70's up through late 1980's lugged
steel TREKs have some fantastic workmanship, much nicer than
Raleigh(Carlton) achieved, except for the top-of-the-line. On the
downside, the paint jobs are pretty bland and/or flake easily, much
worse than Raleigh, now that the Imron is more than 10 years old
(i.e. it has dried and hardened completely, which makes it brittle.)

TREK was the only bike maker to ever mix tubing from ALL FOUR tubing
makers (Tange, Ishiwater, Reynolds, Columbus) and these frames all use
100% today's threading standards.

The only thing i'd stay away from is a TREK with a cast head-tube
(1985-????), as imho these were heavy. You can see them by finding
the shallow faux windows in the faux lugs.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

On 27 Mar 2007 18:06:33 -0700, [email protected] (Donald Gillies)
wrote:

>At under $400, any Raleigh 531 frameset from the 1970's or 1980's has
>a good combination of lightness and durability. Prices on ebay start
>at about $100 + s/h for a 531-throughout frameset with problematic
>paint, and go up to about $400 for a frame in like-new condition.
>Often, you can get a nice complete bike for $200-$400. But: stay away
>from technium frames.

I've never bought an old bike or frame on eBay, but have to wonder --
how much can you trust a frame of that vintage w/o seeing it yourself?

--
JT
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John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> I've never bought an old bike or frame on eBay, but have to wonder --
> how much can you trust a frame of that vintage w/o seeing it yourself?


You look for a seller with lots of positive feedback, who provides
lots of closeup photos, and points out minor flaws.

A few years ago I bought a NOS Schwinn Circuit frame, fork, and
headset for $130 on eBay (the seller was a bike shop). This 1989 frame
uses Columbus SL tubing for the main triangle, and Tange tubing for
the forks and stays. As my backup bike, I've put several thousand
miles on it without a problem.

There are good deals out there, but you have to be careful, and know
what you're buying.

Art Harris

On Mar 27, 11:23 am, "tonyfranciozi" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've been riding a modified(drop bars, no fenders, ect) armstrong 3-
> speed for the past year or so and am looking for something a bit more
> performance oriented. My question is, what is the best road bike for
> the money? Obviously thats nothing with collector appeal (cinelli,
> masi, ect) I'm mostly looking at lugged steel frames as this is what
> i'm familiar with. Are there any good quality underrated frames out
> there? Looking for something under $400.
> thanks

1)-no best bike
2)-'best' is the one that fits you
3)-often you buy the bike shop, not the bike. No such thing as a 'bad'
bike from a decent bike shop
4)-manufacturers have abandoned steel in this price range for
aluminum.

Go to a good bike shop and talk to them...

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> writes:

>I've never bought an old bike or frame on eBay, but have to wonder --
>how much can you trust a frame of that vintage w/o seeing it yourself?

A properly maintained frameset has a lifespan of almost 100 years.
So, the frame needs to have some really obvious abuse in order for a
30-year old frame to be near to failure.

There are many ways you can protect yourself on ebay, one of which is
to use a credit card (which allows you to reverse the charges even if
Ebay and Paypal don't agree.) If the seller sends you crud, in the
worst case, you can reverse the charges and ship it back. Don't take
any guff from sellers who for whatever reason claim thay cannot accept
your credit card or payment through paypal.

I've been defrauded once, and I fell for a phony fraudulent seller who
claimed he wasn't going to accept a non-verified credit card.
Fraudster.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> writes:

>I've never bought an old bike or frame on eBay, but have to wonder --
>how much can you trust a frame of that vintage w/o seeing it yourself?

Both Raleigh and TREK offered/offer lifetime frame warranties. What
this means is that there aren't a lot of defective frames floating
around - they get snarfed up by the supplier and replaced, if it's the
original owner.

I've bought a mix of about 30% framesets and 70% full bikes. A full
bike is generally in running condition.

I have heard of crooks who would strip the parts and sell a defective
frame as a frame only. About 99% of people are truly honest, and it
from about 6 frames i've bought, 2 were dealers (one was an LA
thrift-shop), 1 was a longtime ebay bike reseller with hundreds of
positive feedbacks, 1 was a CR (vintage) mailing list member (didn't
know when i first got it but realized that later), and 2x were truly
anonymous sellers to me. One guy messed up a crankset during packing
/ attempted extraction and offered and then sent me some extra parts
as a 'sorry about that' which made me happy.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 27 Mar 2007 18:06:33 -0700, [email protected] (Donald Gillies)
> wrote:
>
>> At under $400, any Raleigh 531 frameset from the 1970's or 1980's has
>> a good combination of lightness and durability. Prices on ebay start
>> at about $100 + s/h for a 531-throughout frameset with problematic
>> paint, and go up to about $400 for a frame in like-new condition.
>> Often, you can get a nice complete bike for $200-$400. But: stay away
>>from technium frames.
>
> I've never bought an old bike or frame on eBay, but have to wonder --
> how much can you trust a frame of that vintage w/o seeing it yourself?
>
I've bought several used framesets from the 80's on eBay. All of them
were straight & true. One of them was to small for me, but that was my
own fault. Sellers are usually happy to take measurements of the frames
they're selling.

I purchased 2 Guerciotti's, one Pinarello, one Vitus, a Univega and a
complete Motobecane bike (of low quality).

The Univega is problematic as it takes larger wheels and a different
seatpost. It remains a frameset, not a complete bike.

The Vitus was a problem because of French threads but I used the parts
from the Motobecane to make a nice bike out of it.

The three Italian frames made great bicycles. Beautiful lugs, easy to
find interchangeable Campy parts. I stripped and painted one of the
Guerciotti's and put labels on it with help from posters here. It's
beautiful. I'll soon post pictures of it for all to see how their good
advice turned into a work of art.

I probably have $400 - $500 in the Guerciotti - including a new Brooks
saddle.

David Griffith

On 27 Mar, 19:44, "tonyfranciozi" <[email protected]> wrote:
> My question is, what is the best road bike for > the money? Obviously thats nothing with collector appeal (cinelli,
> > > masi, ect) I'm mostly looking at lugged steel frames as this is what
> > > i'm familiar with. Are there any good quality underrated frames out
> > > there? Looking for something under $400.
> I'm mostly looking at older lugged frames.

I am sure that I can locate some, still NOS, MASI 3V or Colnago Master
Olympic framesets for around 400 euros.

Sergio
Pisa

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> writes:

>Can frames not be bent, or rusted, or dented, or have some threads
>stripped or damaged?

This brings up a good point about Ebay Auctions. Always insist on the
following pictures :

(a) top-tube, near the front, as handlebar dents are common.

(b) Head-tube showing tops of top-tube and downtube, as paint
bubbling from a front-end collision will almost always be visible in
these pictures. Do not bid on a bike with a replacement fork.

(c) Be afraid of reynolds 753 frames. Be very afraid ... probably
about half of them are cracked or the lugs are cracked by now,
especially from some idiot trying to cold-set the rear triangle.

These strategies have worked for me. I do own two bent frames but one
was clearly disclosed in an ebay auction (and seller actually refunded
part of my winning bid saying 'this frame is a piece of sh*t! you
aren't paying THAT much !'), and the other bent frame was a gift from
a good friend, and I got it straightened.

Again, truly what I'd worry about is a cracked lug or BB coming apart
or something else in an obscure location that's not typically
photographed for an Ebay auction.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA