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Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience - Page 220

post #3286 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Peter Clinch wrote:
> obs@ozarkbicycleservice.com wrote:
>
> > No, not "exactly". The simple decision to wear or not wear a helmet is
> > not "science". It's really quite simple: "Assess, decide and ride". Why
> > do you seek to make a very simple decision complex?

>
> The decision to wear one isn't, but the "assess" bit really /ought/ to
> be if you want the answer with the best chance of being right.
>


What's the big deal? As one poster noted regarding helmets: "Can't hurt
and might help". I think that sums it up rather well.


> Though you've laughed at the idea of having a library of literature on
> the subject, if the same sort of resources aren't available for, say,
> choosing padded shorts or not, then that's a good indication that there
> are actually quite a lot of people in medicine and accident prevention
> work who would disagree with your stance on the simplicity of the issue.
>


Sure, we have one large, vocal group screeching "Danger, danger,
*always* wear a helmet!" and one smaller, but equally strident group
screeching "Danger, danger! Helmets increase injuries! Helmets make
cycling more dangerous! Each helmat worn is a silent vote for
compulsion!"

Pro-helmet wackos and anti-helmet wackos. A pox on both houses.
post #3287 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

obs@ozarkbicycleservice.com wrote:

> What's the big deal? As one poster noted regarding helmets: "Can't hurt
> and might help". I think that sums it up rather well.


"Can help but might hurt" sums it up rather better.

--
Dave...
post #3288 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

In article <v4pjd2llidn5ebc67v2teqlcan7uj21skm@4ax.com>,
Aeek <aeeeeeek@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 14:27:40 +0100, Peter Clinch
> <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >But it quite possibly might have been a negative in that particular
> >instance, is a fair summary IMHO. Though you can come up with other
> >scenarios where they might well help.

>
> Absolutely. Later on I did a full body and face plant into the grass
> from running off the path and the helmet protected my forehead.
> I broke my Rudys on my nose rather than my nose so maybe thats a case
> for mandatory cycling glasses?
> I could conclude that bitumen is softer than grass, that fits my
> personal sample!


Ah Crockey, Mate.

Maybe you should take some riding lessons and learn how to stay upright!

HAND
keep the rubber on the road.
post #3289 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Aeek wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:39:12 +0100, Peter Clinch
> <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> They /might/ help, but they really *can* hurt too. If not, how come
>> the serious injury rate is unchanged by increasing use of helmets?

>
> I'm glad I wasn't wearing a helmet when I went over the bars with a
> half twist. Landed very flat on the road, a few stitches from sliding
> on the back of my head.
> When I think of landing on the protruding tail of the helmet I now
> have to wear (aussie MHL) it scares me. I would have been landing on
> my head/helmet before the rest of me landed rather than all at once.
> Surely that would have been bad for my neck?


Can't have it both ways. If they grant you that (and they will), then they
have to likewise approve comments like "my helmet took the brunt of the hit
and saved me a bad gash if not a concussion" (and they won't).

HTH
post #3290 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Peter Clinch wrote:

> They /might/ help, but they really *can* hurt too. If not, how come
> the serious injury rate is unchanged by increasing use of helmets?


If they "hurt", then the injury rate would go up with increased use.

HTH
post #3291 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

In article <44da09da$0$96189$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
scharf.steven@geemail.com says...
> Espressopithecus (Java Man) wrote:
> > In article <44d93acc$0$96151$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> > scharf.steven@geemail.com says...
> >> I do share the frustration of the AHZs regarding the incessant harping
> >> on the subject of helmets from the media, health care providers, and
> >> government.

> >
> > It may actually make helmet laws and helmet wearing in general less
> > safe/more dangerous because it undoubtedly contributes to risk
> > compensation behaviour.

>
> There is no evidence of this alleged risk compensation behavior as it
> relates to bicycle helmets.
>

Do you have any reason to believe that people's behaviour while wearing
bicycle helmets will be different from that observed with other personal
protective equipment?

Rick
post #3292 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me>typed


> Peter Clinch wrote:


> > They /might/ help, but they really *can* hurt too. If not, how come
> > the serious injury rate is unchanged by increasing use of helmets?


> If they "hurt", then the injury rate would go up with increased use.


> HTH



It does, it appears...

--
Helen D. Vecht: helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk
Edgware.
post #3293 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Espressopithecus (Java Man) <rickk@letterectomyTELUS.net>typed


> In article <44da09da$0$96189$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> scharf.steven@geemail.com says...
> > Espressopithecus (Java Man) wrote:
> > > In article <44d93acc$0$96151$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> > > scharf.steven@geemail.com says...
> > >> I do share the frustration of the AHZs regarding the incessant harping
> > >> on the subject of helmets from the media, health care providers, and
> > >> government.
> > >
> > > It may actually make helmet laws and helmet wearing in general less
> > > safe/more dangerous because it undoubtedly contributes to risk
> > > compensation behaviour.

> >
> > There is no evidence of this alleged risk compensation behavior as it
> > relates to bicycle helmets.
> >

> Do you have any reason to believe that people's behaviour while wearing
> bicycle helmets will be different from that observed with other personal
> protective equipment?


> Rick


Kids have been observed to use their helmets as 'shields' rather than
keeping the head out of the impact zone as would usually be instinctive.

--
Helen D. Vecht: helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk
Edgware.
post #3294 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
> "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me>typed
>
>
> > Peter Clinch wrote:

>
> > > They /might/ help, but they really *can* hurt too. If not, how come
> > > the serious injury rate is unchanged by increasing use of helmets?

>
> > If they "hurt", then the injury rate would go up with increased use.

>
> > HTH

>
>
> It does, it appears...
>
>


Danger, danger! Helmets increase injuries!

Say it isn't so, Petey Clinch.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

"Every Limey AHZ discredited is a vocal vote for reality."
post #3295 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
> Espressopithecus (Java Man) <rickk@letterectomyTELUS.net>typed
>
>
> > In article <44da09da$0$96189$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> > scharf.steven@geemail.com says...
> > > Espressopithecus (Java Man) wrote:
> > > > In article <44d93acc$0$96151$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> > > > scharf.steven@geemail.com says...
> > > >> I do share the frustration of the AHZs regarding the incessant harping
> > > >> on the subject of helmets from the media, health care providers, and
> > > >> government.
> > > >
> > > > It may actually make helmet laws and helmet wearing in general less
> > > > safe/more dangerous because it undoubtedly contributes to risk
> > > > compensation behaviour.
> > >
> > > There is no evidence of this alleged risk compensation behavior as it
> > > relates to bicycle helmets.
> > >

> > Do you have any reason to believe that people's behaviour while wearing
> > bicycle helmets will be different from that observed with other personal
> > protective equipment?

>
> > Rick

>
> Kids have been observed to use their helmets as 'shields' rather than
> keeping the head out of the impact zone as would usually be instinctive.
>
>


That's an instructional/educational issue, isn't it? Akin to
instruction in the proper use of seatbelts, etc. *Not* an inherent
issue re: helmets.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Every Limey AHZ discredited is a vocal vote for reality."
post #3296 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
> "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me>typed


>> Peter Clinch wrote:


>>> They /might/ help, but they really *can* hurt too. If not, how come
>>> the serious injury rate is unchanged by increasing use of helmets?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> If they "hurt", then the injury rate would go up with increased use.


> It does, it appears...


Well, Peter wrote that it's "unchanged", which is what prompted my reply.
(Thanks at least for not /deleting/ his quote above like so many of your
zealous cohorts would undoubtedly do.)
post #3297 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

In article <313030303736393544DA2E0C94@zetnet.co.uk>,
helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk says...
> Espressopithecus (Java Man) <rickk@letterectomyTELUS.net>typed
>
>
> > In article <44da09da$0$96189$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> > scharf.steven@geemail.com says...
> > > Espressopithecus (Java Man) wrote:
> > > > In article <44d93acc$0$96151$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> > > > scharf.steven@geemail.com says...
> > > >> I do share the frustration of the AHZs regarding the incessant harping
> > > >> on the subject of helmets from the media, health care providers, and
> > > >> government.
> > > >
> > > > It may actually make helmet laws and helmet wearing in general less
> > > > safe/more dangerous because it undoubtedly contributes to risk
> > > > compensation behaviour.
> > >
> > > There is no evidence of this alleged risk compensation behavior as it
> > > relates to bicycle helmets.
> > >

> > Do you have any reason to believe that people's behaviour while wearing
> > bicycle helmets will be different from that observed with other personal
> > protective equipment?

>
> > Rick

>
> Kids have been observed to use their helmets as 'shields' rather than
> keeping the head out of the impact zone as would usually be instinctive.
>

I think that's an example of how kids' behaviour while wearing bicycle
helmets is the same as people using other protective equipment, not
different.

Rick
post #3298 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Ozark, any news on whether or not you will be in NYC later this
summer?

You may recall suggesting I wouldn't be willing to criticize you to
your face, and then when I said would you said you expected to be in
NYC. Well?

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
post #3299 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> Ozark, any news on whether or not you will be in NYC later this
> summer?
>


Do you still want my picture, or have you found another object for your
homoerotic urges?


> You may recall suggesting I wouldn't be willing to criticize you to
> your face, and then when I said would you said you expected to be in
> NYC. Well?
>


In English, please!!!


> JT
>
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
post #3300 of 3323

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

burt wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:44d93acc$0$96151$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> > Chris Malcolm wrote:
> >
> >>> IOW, peer pressure caused you to question your own common sense and
> >>> sound judgment.
> >>
> >> Exactly. That's how science works, and the reason it is so much more
> >> successful than common sense: it's a team effort.

> >
> > LOL, in order to be successful it has to be based on real science, not
> > junk science. There are lots of team efforts that involve using junk
> > science (or junk history for that matter) to prove something.
> >
> > I do share the frustration of the AHZs regarding the incessant harping on
> > the subject of helmets from the media, health care providers, and
> > government. I was at my son's pediatrician's office yesterday, and she was
> > going over recommendations by the HMO regarding healthy lifestyles for
> > kids. On her computer screen it stressed not eating junk food, avoiding
> > high fructose corn syrup and fruit juice, limiting video games,
> > exercising, and of course, "always wear a helmet when riding a bicycle."

>
> Straw Man Scharf - queen of the scientific illiterate.

]

"Burt" - queen. Yo, Tony! Stop hiding behind Burt's skirts! Come out
and post like a man, even if it's an _English_ man.
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