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Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience - Page 6

post #76 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

in message <1147837045.000835.37610@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
frkrygow@gmail.com ('frkrygow@gmail.com') wrote:

> They
> may not understand that it's possible to arrive at their destination
> without a sweaty, weird hairdo.
>
> They may like the wind in their hair. Once, that was a very common
> statement of cyclists!


Frank, don't exaggerate the benefits of not wearing a helmet. Yes, I like
the feel of wind in my hair, and my hair usually isn't sweaty when I
arrive at my destination. But IME wind in your hair == weird hairdo,
unless you have /very/ short hair!

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I put the 'sexy' in 'dyslexia'
post #77 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

On Tue, 16 May 2006 22:18:12 +0100, Simon Brooke
<simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:


>
>Interesting little side note after tonight's time trial. I took off my
>helmet, stuck it in my rucksack, gathered in everyone's race numbers,
>stuck them in my rucksack, had a wee bit blether with the guys as you
>do, and then set off to ride back. Ian said 'you haven't got your
>helmet'. 'It's in my rucksack', said I. 'Simon,' said Ian, 'you've
>forgotten your helmet.' 'No I haven't, it's in my rucksack.' The poor
>chap was gobsmacked.


Wow. And you made it home alive.....

JT

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post #78 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

On Wed, 17 May 2006 09:38:43 +0100, Simon Brooke
<simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:

>in message <1147837045.000835.37610@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>frkrygow@gmail.com ('frkrygow@gmail.com') wrote:
>
>> They
>> may not understand that it's possible to arrive at their destination
>> without a sweaty, weird hairdo.
>>
>> They may like the wind in their hair. Once, that was a very common
>> statement of cyclists!

>
>Frank, don't exaggerate the benefits of not wearing a helmet. Yes, I like
>the feel of wind in my hair, and my hair usually isn't sweaty when I
>arrive at my destination. But IME wind in your hair == weird hairdo,
>unless you have /very/ short hair!


Well, I'll tell you a story about a friend of mine. Accomplished bike
racer (an Olympian) and also uses the bike for errands, etc. around
town.

A few winters ago I ran into her in a coffee shop some ways out of
town, where a lot of cyclists stop. Her hair looked amazingly nice --
flowing and not matted down with "helmet head." I commented on the
hair and she said "Yeah, I stopped wearing a helmet in winter, just a
wool hat." Evidently, while "wind in the hair" is not good, a hat
works better than a helmet. At least for this Irish beauty.

JT


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post #79 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Simon Brooke wrote:
>
> Frank, don't exaggerate the benefits of not wearing a helmet. Yes, I like
> the feel of wind in my hair, and my hair usually isn't sweaty when I
> arrive at my destination. But IME wind in your hair == weird hairdo,
> unless you have /very/ short hair!


No exaggeration in my case. I've tried it both ways. I used to use a
helmet riding to work. I no longer do so. The difference is clear to
me.

I note that "helmet hair" is a commonly discussed problem regarding
commuting by bike.

- Frank Krygowski
post #80 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

In article <1147837045.000835.37610@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
frkrygow@gmail.com says...
>
> Espressopithecus (Java Man) wrote:
> >
> > >

> > Well, we all know how we like to ride.
> >
> > I always wear a helmet while riding...

>
> Sadly, I think we've got lots of folks who don't know how they like to
> ride. That's because they've been told from day one that "you must
> never ride a bike without a helmet." They may have never ridden any
> distance without one!
>
> They may not know that they'll never need one in all their cycling
> life, just like almost all the cyclists that came before them. They
> may not understand that it's possible to arrive at their destination
> without a sweaty, weird hairdo. They may not realize that it's not
> necessary to have sponge pads occasionally pouring sweat directly into
> their eyes, or to look like a pretend racer-boy when they're just
> cruising along.
>
> They may _like_ the wind in their hair. Once, that was a very common
> statement of cyclists!
>
> > I avoid high speed descents,

>
> Well, these days I stay under 45 mph, and even that is very rare.
>
> > traffic,

>
> No problem! It's not hard to learn to deal with traffic.


I have no problem riding in traffic -- have done so for decades and am
experienced at riding visibly, predictably, lawfully and defensively.
But there are a lot of wingnuts driving. I've been forced off the road
twice -- once deliberately and once by a careless bus driver who wasn't
paying attention. It only takes once. So I avoid traffic wherever
possible. Fortunately, our city is making great strides creating
dedicated cycle lanes, which provide a little extra margin of safety.
But there's always a careless driver out there . . . .

Rick
post #81 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

In article <4cvq53F17ssb3U1@individual.net>, junk@raven-family.com
says...
> Espressopithecus (Java Man) wrote:
> > Extrapolating in this
> > case is more like playing the odds when you don't really know what they
> > are.
> >

>
> We do know what the odds are and they are not in favour of helmets.
> However some find it difficult to accept because it goes against their
> beliefs.
>

So you're saying barehead is safer than helmets in all circumstances?

Rick
post #82 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

In article <1147851119.119812.119190@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
martin-family@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>
> Espressopithecus (Java Man) wrote:
> > As far as I know, gravity acts consistently 100% of the time. Helmets,
> > on the other hand, don't.

>
> So if I let go of something it will fall down 100% of the time?


Surely you're joking.
>
>
> > > That helmets are ineffective at a population level is an empirical
> > > observation. It is reasonable to then extrapolate that to predicting
> > > that on the whole they will not do you much good.

> >
> > On the whole, it depends what kind of accident you have.

> Must remember to choose my accident more carefully in future.


So you disagree with the proposition that helmets are less safe in some
kinds of accidents but more safe in others?

> Will they
> be doing a survey in Consumer Reports or Which soon?
>
> > Helmets
> > probably provide more protection than a bare head in some kinds of
> > accidents and less protection than a bare head in others. Not like
> > gravity, which acts consistently all the time.

>
> Letting go of something means it will fall down all the time?


I hope this isn't an example of the thought process you used in deciding
helmets don't work.

Rick
post #83 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

In article <1147877569.412430.305090@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
> >
> > Frank, don't exaggerate the benefits of not wearing a helmet. Yes, I like
> > the feel of wind in my hair, and my hair usually isn't sweaty when I
> > arrive at my destination. But IME wind in your hair == weird hairdo,
> > unless you have /very/ short hair!

>
> No exaggeration in my case. I've tried it both ways. I used to use a
> helmet riding to work. I no longer do so. The difference is clear to
> me.
>
> I note that "helmet hair" is a commonly discussed problem regarding
> commuting by bike.
>
> - Frank Krygowski


Jees! Fran, er, Frank:

Just wait a few years. You can look like me or Sheldon Brown....

HAND
get a bent!
post #84 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

in message <MPG.1ed4e939133bf3c989780@shawnews.vc.shawcable.net>,
Espressopithecus (Java Man) ('rickk@letterectomyTELUS.net') wrote:

> In article <4cvq53F17ssb3U1@individual.net>, junk@raven-family.com
> says...
>> Espressopithecus (Java Man) wrote:
>> > Extrapolating in this
>> > case is more like playing the odds when you don't really know what
>> > they are.
>> >

>>
>> We do know what the odds are and they are not in favour of helmets.
>> However some find it difficult to accept because it goes against their
>> beliefs.
>>

> So you're saying barehead is safer than helmets in all circumstances?


I don't think anyone's said that. Bareheaded is clearly safer in
'average' circumstances. Unfortunately we don't know which
circumstances, and we don't know why. My personal guess is that helmets
don't help much in high speed impacts (because not protective enough) or
in very low speed impacts (because not needed).

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

For office use only. Please do not write or type below this line.
post #85 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

In article
<1147851119.119812.119190@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"David Martin" <martin-family@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Espressopithecus (Java Man) wrote:
> > As far as I know, gravity acts consistently 100% of the time. Helmets,
> > on the other hand, don't.

>
> So if I let go of something it will fall down 100% of the time?


I bet you are going to make an example of a helium
balloon. A tethered helium balloon is holding up all that
air that wants to fall around it an occupy the space it is
taking up. When the balloon is released, all that air
falls down. Gravity is universal. Get used to it.

[...]

--
Michael Press
post #86 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Rob wrote:
> On 10 May 2006 15:38:12 -0700, "David Martin"
> <martin-family@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I do not force the kids to wear helmets,
> >nor do I try to dissuade them. I do try to ensure they make a reasoned
> >decision about what they wear when and why.

>
> How old are your children? Do you really think they are in a position
> to be able to make that reasoned decision?


Let me comment. I've raised two kids through the helmet trend, and
I've had some interest in the issue since the youngest was born.

Regarding helmets, the question is moot. Kids have learned to ride
with no helmets since the dawn of cycling. There was never a plague of
bicycling head injuries. And that fact hasn't changed with the fashion
for helmets. It just doesn't matter.

However, David's comment (as quoted above) did not specify making a
reasoned decision only about helmets. It may well have included, say,
rain gear. And a six year old can probably be taught to make a
reasoned decision about that.

I think parents should concentrate on the more logical matters - "If it
rains, you will get wet" - and leave aside the fantasy and folklore
about serious brain injuries from cycling. Concentrating on the latter
will just lead to more cycle-phobic, inactive, obese, neurotic kids.
We have too many of those now.

- Frank Krygowski
post #87 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Rob wrote:
> On 10 May 2006 15:38:12 -0700, "David Martin"
> <martin-family@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I do not force the kids to wear helmets,
> >nor do I try to dissuade them. I do try to ensure they make a reasoned
> >decision about what they wear when and why.

>
> How old are your children? Do you really think they are in a position
> to be able to make that reasoned decision?


4 8 and 9. Typically they will choose to wear one (force of habit,
enjoy 'dressing up' etc. as well as protection from minor bumps) when
riding solo. On the tandem they generally don't.

...d
post #88 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

"David Martin" <martin-family@blueyonder.co.uk>typed

> >
> > How old are your children? Do you really think they are in a position
> > to be able to make that reasoned decision?


> 4 8 and 9. Typically they will choose to wear one (force of habit,
> enjoy 'dressing up' etc. as well as protection from minor bumps) when
> riding solo. On the tandem they generally don't.


Even a 4-year-old is IME old enough to say something is too hot or cold.

--
Helen D. Vecht: helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk
Edgware.
post #89 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
>
> Even a 4-year-old is IME old enough to say something is too hot or cold.
>


But as Sorni has demonstrated a 4-year old is not educated enough to
make an informed choice on helmets - so it should be the parents
responsibility to make it for them.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
post #90 of 186

Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:19:35 +0100, Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com>
wrote:

>Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
>>
>> Even a 4-year-old is IME old enough to say something is too hot or cold.
>>

>
>But as Sorni has demonstrated a 4-year old is not educated enough to
>make an informed choice on helmets - so it should be the parents
>responsibility to make it for them.


Maybe. But the truth is that the odds of helmets making a difference
-- either in protection from serious injury or contributing to serious
injury -- are so remote it doesn't really matter. I think it'd be
better for the parents to spend more times helping or compelling the
kids to understand how to ride safely, deal with traffic, stay upright
etc than to spend time with the kids on helmets.

But I don't have kids, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

JT



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