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Removing 'lawyer lugs'

post #1 of 51
5/30/06 at 8:23pm
Thread Starter 
Both my bikes have little protrusions on the fork drop outs that prevent the
hub quick release from ... quick releasing. Known, I believe, as 'lawyer
lugs' as it may prevent legal action if you're stupid enough to not have the
QR set right.

Any reason why I should not file them off? One's a carbon fork, by the way.
Seems such a shame to not have working QR hubs.

I can't see any reason myself, but before I do I thought I'd throw it open
for comment.

Karen
--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast
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post #2 of 51
5/30/06 at 8:40pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

Donga wrote:
> Well, you'd void any right you had to legal action, and warranty.
>
> It does seem dumb. Why on mountain forks and not road forks? Even on
> high end mountain forks.
>
> Donga

I'm not worried about warranty, or legal action - just checking that there's
no reason I hadn't thought of. I've been out of cycling a long time, and I
concede technology has changed in leaps & bounds since my heydays.

The bike with carbon fork I purchased secondhand anyway, so no warranty -
though the bike shop has been terrific sorting out minor issues I had with
it. Lawyers, well, we don't want them in our lives anyway

Karen

--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast
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post #3 of 51
5/30/06 at 8:46pm

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donga
Well, you'd void any right you had to legal action, and warranty.

It does seem dumb. Why on mountain forks and not road forks? Even on
high end mountain forks.

Donga
Perhaps because the front wheel lifts off the ground a lot more on a MTB, meaning the chances of the front wheel dropping out are increased (if the QR skewer does somehow manage to come undone.

Or perhaps it's just stupidity.
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post #4 of 51
5/30/06 at 8:50pm

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

But they are still QR, you just have to twist them loose a little. Takes about 5 seconds and is a heap easier than having nuts to undo (Or like my MTB forks which require 5 allen key bolts and axel removal to take the front wheel off...still only takes about 1 minute and I always carry a small allen key tool anyhow)

I have on the otherhand experienced the whole front wheel not on any longer sensation. Both on BMX bikes and airborne. First time I thought huh someone has lost their wheel...SPLAT. Second time I went thats my wheel...ABORT.

As for a roadie there would be a tiny tiny tiny tiny (I do wheelies much to Lottes disgust so only tiny for me) chance of the wheel coming out, but the results would be pretty horrible.
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post #5 of 51
5/30/06 at 9:06pm

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

Karen Gallagher wrote:
> Donga wrote:
>
>>Well, you'd void any right you had to legal action, and warranty.
>>
>>It does seem dumb. Why on mountain forks and not road forks? Even on
>>high end mountain forks.
>>
>>Donga
>
>
> I'm not worried about warranty, or legal action - just checking that there's
> no reason I hadn't thought of. I've been out of cycling a long time, and I
> concede technology has changed in leaps & bounds since my heydays.
>
> The bike with carbon fork I purchased secondhand anyway, so no warranty -
> though the bike shop has been terrific sorting out minor issues I had with
> it. Lawyers, well, we don't want them in our lives anyway
>
> Karen
>


The "other" reason for having the lawyers lugs is that with disk brakes
the forces on the wheel caused by the brakes try to pull the wheel out
of the forks. The bigger the disk the greater the force. Do a bit of
reseach on that and you'll find plenty of articles. There was a long
discussion about this on rec.bicycles.tech.

Friday
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post #6 of 51
5/30/06 at 9:13pm

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen Gallagher
Any reason why I should not file them off? One's a carbon fork, by the way.
Seems such a shame to not have working QR hubs.

I can't see any reason myself, but before I do I thought I'd throw it open
for comment.
Damn... I thought I was the lone sucker in here for weight-weenie tricks, but that takes the cake...
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post #7 of 51
5/30/06 at 9:14pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

darryl wrote:
> In article
> <447cd3fa$0$7845$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
> "Karen Gallagher" <karen_oz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Both my bikes have little protrusions on the fork drop outs that
>> prevent the hub quick release from ... quick releasing. Known, I
>> believe, as 'lawyer lugs' as it may prevent legal action if you're
>> stupid enough to not have the QR set right.
>>
>> Any reason why I should not file them off? One's a carbon fork, by
>> the way. Seems such a shame to not have working QR hubs.
>>
>> I can't see any reason myself, but before I do I thought I'd throw
>> it open for comment.
>>
>> Karen
>
> Carbon fibre dust is regarded by some as dangerous to inhale/ingest
> when cutting. I can remember the extreme precautions taken when the
> Blackhawk helicopters crashed in High Range Training Area.
>
> Read the following Material Safety Data Sheet:
> <http://www.robotmarketplace.com/images/CF_material_safety.pdf>
>
> Read the FAQ about CF:
> <http://www.robotmarketplace.com/store_carbon_fiber_faq.html>
>
> Incidentally, this is a supplier who thinks the dangers are
> over-rated. I think it is too early in its existence to make that
> claim. I can also remember back when asbestos was safe to cut (and
> jump on and play with).
>
> regards,
> Darryl

Makes sense. So, if I use coarse wet & dry sandpaper wet, and gloves, I
should be OK. I had planned to use my jeweller's hand tool with a diamond
bit at 10k RPM, this is clearly out.

The carbon forks, BTW, are on my road bike, which has no such lugs on the
rear. I'll leave the lugs on the hybrid, they don't bother me as much.

Thanks for all the input, folks.

Karen

--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast
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post #8 of 51
5/30/06 at 10:07pm

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

Hi Karen,

Just a question - whilst I think you can remove those lugs, why would
you want to??

Cheers,
Abby
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post #9 of 51
5/30/06 at 10:08pm

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

Karen Gallagher wrote:

> Any reason why I should not file them off? One's a carbon fork, by the way.
> Seems such a shame to not have working QR hubs.
>
> I can't see any reason myself, but before I do I thought I'd throw it open
> for comment.

You'll find some relevant information abot why they are there (and why
they sometimes don't do all that they're designed for) on this page -
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames...ase/index.html

It's mainly a concern in disk brake equipped mountain bike or tandems
(both of which can exert a large braking force via the front wheel).

Graeme
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post #10 of 51
5/30/06 at 10:16pm

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

In aus.bicycle on 30 May 2006 17:30:35 -0700
Donga <idomybestworkonabike@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Paulie-AU wrote:
>> As for a roadie there would be a tiny tiny tiny tiny (I do wheelies
>> much to Lottes disgust so only tiny for me) chance of the wheel coming
>> out, but the results would be pretty horrible.
>
> There is a good photo of such an incident somewhere on the web - can't
> find it sorry.

even more fun on a motorcycle....


I recall a caption comp in a motorcycle mag with a picture of a dirtbike
rider mid wheelie with the forks and wheel having dropped off his
bike, the wheel just landing.

The winning one was "Oooh, I wonder if this one will fit!"

Zebee
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post #11 of 51
5/30/06 at 10:20pm

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen Gallagher
darryl wrote:
> In article
> <447cd3fa$0$7845$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
> "Karen Gallagher" <karen_oz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Both my bikes have little protrusions on the fork drop outs that
>> prevent the hub quick release from ... quick releasing. Known, I
>> believe, as 'lawyer lugs' as it may prevent legal action if you're
>> stupid enough to not have the QR set right.
>>
>> Any reason why I should not file them off? One's a carbon fork, by
>> the way. Seems such a shame to not have working QR hubs.
>>
>> I can't see any reason myself, but before I do I thought I'd throw
>> it open for comment.
>>
>> Karen
>
> Carbon fibre dust is regarded by some as dangerous to inhale/ingest
> when cutting. I can remember the extreme precautions taken when the
> Blackhawk helicopters crashed in High Range Training Area.
>
> Read the following Material Safety Data Sheet:
> <http://www.robotmarketplace.com/images/CF_material_safety.pdf>
>
> Read the FAQ about CF:
> <http://www.robotmarketplace.com/store_carbon_fiber_faq.html>
>
> Incidentally, this is a supplier who thinks the dangers are
> over-rated. I think it is too early in its existence to make that
> claim. I can also remember back when asbestos was safe to cut (and
> jump on and play with).
>
> regards,
> Darryl

Makes sense. So, if I use coarse wet & dry sandpaper wet, and gloves, I
should be OK. I had planned to use my jeweller's hand tool with a diamond
bit at 10k RPM, this is clearly out.

The carbon forks, BTW, are on my road bike, which has no such lugs on the
rear. I'll leave the lugs on the hybrid, they don't bother me as much.

Thanks for all the input, folks.

Karen

--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast

Karen,
Your forks are carbon but the tips are alloy yeah? Only a few megabuck carbon forks have carbon tips. If so it's fine to file/dremel/grind them off flush, no danger of wheel coming out if you use the QR correctly.

The one annoying thing changing wheels is my rims are very narrow and even with the brakes released the pads still rub on the tyre when I take the wheels out. This is the same with chorus and ultegra calipers.

Adam
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post #12 of 51
5/30/06 at 11:07pm

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen Gallagher
Both my bikes have little protrusions on the fork drop outs that prevent the hub quick release from ... quick releasing. Known, I believe, as 'lawyer lugs' as it may prevent legal action if you're stupid enough to not have the QR set right.
Also known as "Lawyers lips", here's another thread discussing them,
http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?t=204113
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post #13 of 51
5/30/06 at 11:14pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

Absent Husband wrote:
> Hi Karen,
>
> Just a question - whilst I think you can remove those lugs, why would
> you want to??
>
> Cheers,
> Abby

So that when I rotate the quick release lever, the wheel is released. Just
like they used to when I was younger. To me, it entirely defeats the object
to rotate the lever, then undo the nut a couple of turns (thereby losing the
correct tension setting) to remove the wheel.

I'd be just as well off using the old hubs I used to have with giant
wing-nuts on to hold the wheels tight, otherwise, without the expense of QR
hubs.

Karen.

--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast
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post #14 of 51
5/30/06 at 11:29pm

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen Gallagher
I'd be just as well off using the old hubs I used to have with giant
wing-nuts on to hold the wheels tight

<not very pro>
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post #15 of 51
5/30/06 at 11:38pm

Re: Removing 'lawyer lugs'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen Gallagher
Absent Husband wrote:
> Hi Karen,
>
> Just a question - whilst I think you can remove those lugs, why would
> you want to??
>
> Cheers,
> Abby

So that when I rotate the quick release lever, the wheel is released. Just
like they used to when I was younger. To me, it entirely defeats the object
to rotate the lever, then undo the nut a couple of turns (thereby losing the
correct tension setting) to remove the wheel.

I'd be just as well off using the old hubs I used to have with giant
wing-nuts on to hold the wheels tight, otherwise, without the expense of QR
hubs.

Karen.

--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast
I once had an experience with a loose front wheel. After repainting an old steel frame and the forks I went on a long fast ride, with high speeds down rough roads. I then rode through town to my home, got off the bike to carry it inside and the front wheel dropped off. I was shocked! I had tightened up the front wheel on a layer of paint which came loose and it was only luck that the wheel stayed on. Since then I always file any paint off the drop-outs and believe the lawyers lugs should be left intact. But if you think a few seconds saved is worth it then.... (shrugs)

You can find some of the mythology on quick release here.

http://www.campyonly.com/history.html
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