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Fidel Castro - Page 2

post #16 of 191

Re: Fidel Castro

The Cuban Missile Crisis was a brief period in Cuban history,when there was a real threat of invasion by the US.
Reducing child mortality,training doctors and nurses to a high standard and providing free health care,increasing literacy standards...these are real accomplishments.No country has ever had a perfect leader.
The only way that any country's leader can be judged is on the balance of what they managed to do when the opportunity presented itself.On balance,Castro has been a very good leader for Cuba.
Most,if not all of the people who leave Cuba are economic refugees.There are millions economic refugees trying to enter the US illegally,from every country in the region.Most of the countries in the region are materially poor in comparison to the USA.It doesn't surprise me that so many people from all over Central and South America would try to improve their standard of living,particularly when,for most of them,their only knowledge of the US comes from movies and television and they think they are going to a land of plenty.
Your only "argument" appears to be to call Castro a "pig" and "evil" without stating any reason for having those opinions.If you can manage to come up with some facts...I'm happy to respond.
As for dissidents...come up with a few facts instead of parroting this sort of nonsense.The record of the US is not exactly great when it comes to dissidents,is it?

I don't know why I bother to respond to this sort of ill-informed rubbish...it always ends with some semi-literate screaming "Your all fags!" at his keyboard.

BTW Your spelling is better than most of the people who post this sort of stuff.
post #17 of 191

Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaby
The Cuban Missile Crisis was a brief period in Cuban history,when there was a real threat of invasion by the US.
Reducing child mortality,training doctors and nurses to a high standard and providing free health care,increasing literacy standards...these are real accomplishments.No country has ever had a perfect leader.
The only way that any country's leader can be judged is on the balance of what they managed to do when the opportunity presented itself.On balance,Castro has been a very good leader for Cuba.
Most,if not all of the people who leave Cuba are economic refugees.There are millions economic refugees trying to enter the US illegally,from every country in the region.Most of the countries in the region are materially poor in comparison to the USA.It doesn't surprise me that so many people from all over Central and South America would try to improve their standard of living,particularly when,for most of them,their only knowledge of the US comes from movies and television and they think they are going to a land of plenty.
Your only "argument" appears to be to call Castro a "pig" and "evil" without stating any reason for having those opinions.If you can manage to come up with some facts...I'm happy to respond.
As for dissidents...come up with a few facts instead of parroting this sort of nonsense.The record of the US is not exactly great when it comes to dissidents,is it?

I don't know why I bother to respond to this sort of ill-informed rubbish...it always ends with some semi-literate screaming "Your all fags!" at his keyboard.

BTW Your spelling is better than most of the people who post this sort of stuff.
The seeds of your own megalomania are becoming apparent if you think that either Australians or el Presidente of the People's Republic of Craggy Island have a more thorough understanding of Cuba than those that live in this region. Facts concerning the evil pig Castro fill entire books and Cuban exiles form a very vocal group in this country. Since you have apparently not been privy to said facts, calling them "ill-informed rubbish" (which I would dare you to do in public in South Florida), I will attempt to summarize a few points out of the VOLUMES of information available. I will divide my discussion into several parts so you can keep up, and so you can refute them individually with statements about the Bush administration. I will address "evil", then "pig", and I would like to add a few comments about "the land of plenty."



As for evil, let's start at the beginning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2479867.stm

Some excerpts:
1961: Victorious Castro bans elections
Cuba's prime minister, Dr Fidel Castro, has proclaimed Cuba a socialist nation and abolished elections.

Dr Castro also announced that foreign Roman Catholic priests would be expelled and all Roman Catholic and private schools would be nationalised.

The days that followed saw thousands of anti-Castro rebels confined in makeshift prisons and at least 600 executed. The Cuban secret service, G2, is still interrogating possible "counter-revolutionaries".



http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat6.htm#Cuba59

Cuba
(1959 et seq.)

Fidel Castro regime (1959- )

Skidmore: 550 executions in 1st six months of 1959

Gilbert: more than 2,000 executed.

WHPSI: 2,113 political executions 1958-67

Hugh Thomas, Cuba, or, the pursuit of freedom (1971, 1988): "perhaps" 5,000 executions by 1970.

In addition, Thomas cites (unfavorably: "... does not command confidence")

Cuban Information Service, 1963:

2875 executed after trial

4245 executed w/o trial

2962 killed fighting Castro's regime.

Caldeville (1969)

22,000 killed or died in jail.

2,000 drowned fleeing

27 Dec. 1998 AP (published in Minneapolis Star Tribune and Buffalo News, et al.):

cites Hugh Thomas: 5,000 might have beeen executed by 1970

"... in recent years, capital punishment has been rare."

Cuban American National Foundation (1997): 12,000 political executions (http://www.canfnet.org/english/faqfutur.htm)

11 Dec. 1998 New Statesman: 18,000 killed or disappeared since 1959 (citing Cuban American Nat'l Foundation)

Mario Lazo, Dagger in the Heart : American Policy Failures in Cuba (1968):

15,000 put to death by 1967.

35,000 refugees drowned (based on a 75% mortality, which seems high. cf. Vietnamese and Haitian death rates.)

Total: 50,000

Rummel (1959-87):

Executions: 15,000

Boat people drowned: 51,000 (based on a 75% mortality. See above)

Died in prison: 7,000

TOTAL: 73,000

22 Feb. 1999 Houston Chronicle (editorial by Agustin Blazquez): 97,000 deaths caused by Castro. This number seems to have originally come from an unpublished study by Armando Lago [http://www.nocastro.com/archives/gohome.htm], which now apparently estimates a death toll of 116,730-119,730, the bulk of whom (85,000) disappeared at sea. [http://www.cubanueva.com/cubahoy/politica/1211_COSTOHUMANO-REVOLUCION.htm] Like most sources that only appear in editorials and Internet, be careful.

ANALYSIS: The dividing line between those who have an ax to grind and those who don't falls in the 5,000-12,000 range.





But that was then. What about now?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/country_profiles/1203299.stm

some excerpts:

He exercises control over virtually all aspects of Cuban life through the Communist Party and its affiliated mass organisations, the government bureaucracy and the state security apparatus.

The Cuban media are tightly controlled by the government and journalists must operate within the confines of laws against anti-government propaganda and the insulting of officials which carry penalties of up to three years in prison. Private ownership of electronic media is prohibited by the constitution, and foreign news agencies must hire local journalists only through government offices. The Paris-based media rights organisation Reporters Without Borders has described the press freedom situation as "disastrous". The New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists said Cuba was one of the world's leading jailers of journalists in 2005."



But really, that's just kids' stuff. Let's visit Human Rights Watch and get their opinion. I am assuming you will trust this organization as they freely criticize the US.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/22/cuba8480.htm

Cuba: Trial Violates Dissidents’ Right to Free Expression

The denial of basic civil and political rights is written into Cuban law. A number of criminal law provisions grant the state extraordinary power to prosecute people who attempt to exercise basic rights to free expression, opinion, association, and assembly. The country’s courts also deny defendants internationally-recognized guarantees of due process, including the right to a public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal.

Under Cuban law, the crime of disrespect for authority (desacato) covers anyone who "threatens, libels or slanders, defames, affronts or in any other way insults or offends, with the spoken word or in writing, the dignity or decorum of an authority, public functionary, or his agents or auxiliaries." Such actions are punishable by three months to one year in prison. If the person shows disrespect to the president the sanction is deprivation of liberty for one to three years.

In March 2003, police detained scores of political dissidents and others viewed as "counter-revolutionary" in their thinking. By early April, the Cuban courts had sentenced 75 defendants—including such prominent figures as Raúl Rivero, the poet and journalist, and Héctor Palacios, a leader in the pro-democracy movement—to prison terms ranging from six to 28 years.

Last week, on April 15, the U.N. Human Rights Commission in Geneva passed a resolution criticizing Cuba’s human rights practices. The resolution stated that the Commission "deplores the events which occurred last year in Cuba," a reference to the trials and sentencing of the 75 dissidents.

"The impending trial continues the repressive trend that was so glaringly evident last year in Cuba," Mariner said.

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k2/americas5.html

Whether detained for political or common crimes, inmates were subjected to abusive prison conditions. Prisoners frequently suffered malnourishment and languished in overcrowded cells without appropriate medical attention. Some endured physical and sexual abuse, typically by other inmates with the acquiescence of guards, or long periods in punitive isolation cells. Prison authorities insisted that all detainees participate in politically oriented "re-education" sessions or face punishment. Political prisoners who denounced the poor conditions of imprisonment were frequently punished with solitary confinement, restricted visits, or denial of medical treatment.

My personal favorite:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/149414.stm

Libya has named the Cuban president, Fidel Castro, winner of the Moamar Gadaffi Human Rights Prize -- in recognition of what it says is Mr Castro's resistance to imperialism and defence of democratic values.

In conclusion of this section, I would like to point out that the US, which you say doesn't have a great record regarding dissidents, actually rewards the crime of disrespect for authority (desacato) which covers anyone who "threatens, libels or slanders, defames, affronts or in any other way insults or offends, with the spoken word or in writing, the dignity or decorum of an authority, public functionary, or his agents or auxiliaries with things like Academy Awards and millions of dollars. They do not go to prison.

Since I have a life outside this forum, I will have to get back to you on what makes Castro a pig. So many facts, so little time .
post #18 of 191
Thread Starter 

Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by nns1400
Hmmm, where to start? Lim's been to Florida and chatted up some New Jersey retirees, managing to avoid the entire Spanish speaking population. I guess that makes you an expert then. Then you say, "these types are the problem." ??? The problem in Florida? The problem in Cuba? What is the relevance of that comment?
I talked with some "exiled" Cubans - they were reminiscing about Cuba and what a great place it was pre-Castro.
These anecdotes came out as the beer flowed.
Left me quite cold, I've gotta say.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nns1400

As for Castro: clearly you are delusional. The only thing Ireland and Cuba have in common is large numbers of emigres to the US. Oh, but wait.
Incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nns1400
Your points in favor of the utopian paradise in Cuba are a medical school and literacy. I believe America has plenty of superb medical schools, yet that does not stop you and stevebaby from assigning the US as the embodiment of Evil Incarnate in the world today.
Does America have great medical schools? I couldn't possibly say whether it has or not.

Per Capita, Cuba produces the highest number of doctors in the world.
Cuba's medical expertise is second to none.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nns1400
Otherwise, they pretty much don't get to use their awesome literacy powers on anything like political freedom, academic freedom, religious freedom, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, economic freedom, personal freedom or any other sort of freedom.
I've been to Cuba twice - there is academic freedom, religious freedom, personal freedom.
Freedom of the press? They do have a State press agency.
But so does your country and my country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nns1400
BTW, I'm sure an American president was quite keen on the opinion of an Irish county mayor on US relations with Cuba.
Whether Clinon was interested or not - he was informed publicly of the opinion of the Irish people regarding the US embargo of Cuba.
post #19 of 191

Re: Fidel Castro

[QUOTE=limerickman]I've been to Cuba twice - there is academic freedom, religious freedom, personal freedom.
QUOTE]

Perhaps you should pass that on to Human Rights Watch. Since, predictably, you have ignored all that was posted regarding their assessment of "freedom" in Cuba.
post #20 of 191

Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
Freedom of the press? They do have a State press agency.
But so does your country and my country.
Again, for your benefit:

The Cuban media are tightly controlled by the government and journalists must operate within the confines of laws against anti-government propaganda and the insulting of officials which carry penalties of up to three years in prison. Private ownership of electronic media is prohibited by the constitution, and foreign news agencies must hire local journalists only through government offices. The Paris-based media rights organisation Reporters Without Borders has described the press freedom situation as "disastrous". The New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists said Cuba was one of the world's leading jailers of journalists in 2005."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/ame...es/1203299.stm

Do they jail journalists in Ireland?



[/QUOTE]Whether Clinon was interested or not - he was informed publicly of the opinion of the Irish people regarding the US embargo of Cuba.[/QUOTE]
As was duly noted. The opinion of the Irish people regarding the US embargo of Cuba is of utmost importance to our nation.
post #21 of 191

Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
Florida ?

I was there once - my brother in law got married there.
i love it !!!!!!

your brother in law?...i hope it was your sister he was marrying otherwise i am totally confused..
post #22 of 191
Thread Starter 

Re: Fidel Castro

[QUOTE=nns1400]
Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
I've been to Cuba twice - there is academic freedom, religious freedom, personal freedom.
QUOTE]

Perhaps you should pass that on to Human Rights Watch. Since, predictably, you have ignored all that was posted regarding their assessment of "freedom" in Cuba.
I read what you posted.

On my two visits to Cuba (in the early 1990's) I didn't see anything in your post which corresponded to my experience of Cuba - except the bit about State Press.

Tell me - have you been to Cuba?
post #23 of 191
Thread Starter 

Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainPro
i love it !!!!!!

your brother in law?...i hope it was your sister he was marrying otherwise i am totally confused..
My wife's brother - is my brother in law.
He married an American - in Florida.
post #24 of 191

Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
He married an American
oh, i see...but why?
post #25 of 191
Thread Starter 

Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by nns1400
Again, for your benefit:

The Cuban media are tightly controlled by the government and journalists must operate within the confines of laws against anti-government propaganda and the insulting of officials which carry penalties of up to three years in prison. Private ownership of electronic media is prohibited by the constitution, and foreign news agencies must hire local journalists only through government offices. The Paris-based media rights organisation Reporters Without Borders has described the press freedom situation as "disastrous". The New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists said Cuba was one of the world's leading jailers of journalists in 2005."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/ame...es/1203299.stm

Do they jail journalists in Ireland?



........we both agree that Cuba's got a State News Agency.

The imprisonment of journalists is not something i agree with.
But journalists have been imprisoned in your country.
And journalists have been threatened with imprisonment here as well.
post #26 of 191
Thread Starter 

Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainPro
oh, i see...but why?
Why ? Why did he marry an American? Or why did he get married in Florida??
post #27 of 191

Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
I read what you posted.

On my two visits to Cuba (in the early 1990's) I didn't see anything in your post which corresponded to my experience of Cuba - except the bit about State Press.

Tell me - have you been to Cuba?
I have not, though I have read many more accounts than yours of people visiting Cuba, and escaping Cuba. I don't know what you're refuting exactly. Do you feel that Human Rights Watch is lying? Why? What about the Paris based group Reporters Without Borders? Would they possibly be in a better position than you to assess the situation? Does Cuba NOT jail journalists? What is your evidence to the contrary? That you didn't see any? Does Fidel Castro escort you around the country and show you his prisons?

You remind me of Tom Cruise defending Scientology. "Why, I've never seen re-education centers in Scientology. If I haven't seen them they don't exist."
post #28 of 191
Thread Starter 

Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by nns1400
I have not, though I have read many more accounts than yours of people visiting Cuba, and escaping Cuba. I don't know what you're refuting exactly. Do you feel that Human Rights Watch is lying? Why? What about the Paris based group Reporters Without Borders? Would they possibly be in a better position than you to assess the situation? Does Cuba NOT jail journalists? What is your evidence to the contrary? That you didn't see any? Does Fidel Castro escort you around the country and show you his prisons?

You remind me of Tom Cruise defending Scientology. "Why, I've never seen re-education centers in Scientology. If I haven't seen them they don't exist."
I never commented about HRW.
I don't know if HRW is lying or not - I have not read what HRW have published about Cuba to form an opinion.

Is HRW in a better position than me to judge? Probably.

Does Cuba jail journalists? Does America jail journalists?

And no Castro didn't give me a personal tour of Cuba.
post #29 of 191

Re: Fidel Castro

Name a journalist in jail in the US for using their freedom of speech. name a journalist in in jail in the US. Reporters have been held for contempt of court by refusing to testify about their sources in criminal investigations.

No one would describe the freedom of the press situation in either of our countries as "disastrous." No journalist has been jailed for insults to officials. People make their entire living doing that. Why can't you just admit they don't have freedom of the press, or freedom of speech. It's simple. You go to jail for criticizing Fidel Castro or the regime. You go to jail for disagreeing with the government.


Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
........we both agree that Cuba's got a State News Agency.

The imprisonment of journalists is not something i agree with.
But journalists have been imprisoned in your country.
And journalists have been threatened with imprisonment here as well.
post #30 of 191

Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
I never commented about HRW.
I don't know if HRW is lying or not - I have not read what HRW have published about Cuba to form an opinion.

Is HRW in a better position than me to judge? Probably.

Does Cuba jail journalists? Does America jail journalists?

And no Castro didn't give me a personal tour of Cuba.
You said you did read what I posted; I posted what HRW has published about Cuba. Now you say you have not read what they have published to form an opinion. Go back and read it. Then have an opinion.

Does Cuba jail journalists? Yes. More than other regime.
Does America jail journalists? No.
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