Micro rests during L4 intervals

peterwright said:

I have an elite athlete that I coach that when doing a routine 3 x 20 L4 session is doing something akin to micro rests during the latter intervals. This looks like 10-12 short (around 6-12 secs) periods of coasting prior to ramping it up again. Effectively these become more prevalent in the later intervals (presumably as he fatigues) and the interval therefore has a higher VI. Average power might drop from 331w to 318w for almost the same NP.

Has anybody come across this or experienced it before ? If it was simply fatigue then I would expect to see a drop off in both AP & NP as time passes - rather than a higher VI ?

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Is he getting sore? i.e. a position related problem?

peterwright said:

I have an elite athlete that I coach that when doing a routine 3 x 20 L4 session is doing something akin to micro rests during the latter intervals. This looks like 10-12 short (around 6-12 secs) periods of coasting prior to ramping it up again. Effectively these become more prevalent in the later intervals (presumably as he fatigues) and the interval therefore has a higher VI. Average power might drop from 331w to 318w for almost the same NP.

Has anybody come across this or experienced it before ? If it was simply fatigue then I would expect to see a drop off in both AP & NP as time passes - rather than a higher VI ?

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presumably these rides are on an indoor trainer... i find that indoors (where people rarely rest or stand) tends to excaerbate any positional problems they might have. Plus you've also got the heat build up to worry about.
ric

Data drops?

peterwright said:

No - he does these outdoors (in Sunny Cape Town don't forget ;-)

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i suggested it was indoors, simply because virtually everyone i coach (and lots of other files from other riders) tend to have 'rests' outdoors because of topography or traffic etc.

peterwright said:

Topography could be playiung a role, but when I ask him about these rests, he says "I tend to stop pedalling when I am feeling tired in my L4 intervals" which kinda sounds like an obvious statement excpet for the fact that his NP stays pretty much bang on target.

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I would ask if it is pain and if he stands or changes postion when coasting. Sounds like positional - nerve/circulatory. Is with me. - TF

peterwright said:

Topography could be playiung a role, but when I ask him about these rests, he says "I tend to stop pedalling when I am feeling tired in my L4 intervals" which kinda sounds like an obvious statement excpet for the fact that his NP stays pretty much bang on target.

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They're not long enough to "untrip" the NP algorithm. IOW - the physiological cost of both types of effort is effectively the same.

peterwright said:

Sure - but I am still keen to understand what is causing him to do this, as in a race situation on a long climb this inability to ride at threshold when tired (even for 20 mins) could be costly.

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specializing in the simple answers I'll say: his power target across the interval set is just too high. He stops pedalling because he needs a short break.

Personally i'm not sure that NP == AP when it comes to threshold training.

By "==" I mean exactly equals or is strictly equivalent to.

I do the same thing as the posters athlete, I call mine "muscle releases". I take about 20sec, 3-4 times during each set of my 3x20s. I do these on rollers & the reason is because my private goes numb a little from sitting in one position so long & it gives me a chance to get a drink. Also when fatigue starts to set it I find when I do this little release my HR drops 30-40 beats and I have a new set of fresh legs for a few minutes and can ramp up the power even higher until the fatigue builds up again. I have run this by my coach (who is on these forums) and he has no answer.

I would like to ask you guys your opinion, what is happening, is the muscle release allowing more blood/fresh blood it the muscles to rejuvenate them, is the flood flow clearing the lactic acid more? I don’t know what its doing but it works for me, I can even go 20watts higher for those few minutes than I was doing during the workout.

My second question is what is actually fatiguing, the muscle fibers, the cells etc? since during the 3x20 we are not going anaerobic. Is it maybe a slow build up of lactic acid over that period of time, unlike an effort less than a minute which floods the system with lactic acid almost immediately

peterwright said:

Sure - but I am still keen to understand what is causing him to do this, as in a race situation on a long climb this inability to ride at threshold when tired (even for 20 mins) could be costly.

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What's causing him to do this is fatigue due to an overestimated FTP, or serious lack of form. Get him down to where he can ride 20 min without these rests. I'd say that "inability to ride at threshold" is kind of a giveaway.

Piotr said:

What's causing him to do this is fatigue due to an overestimated FTP, or serious lack of form. Get him down to where he can ride 20 min without these rests. I'd say that "inability to ride at threshold" is kind of a giveaway.

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I was about to say the same. Dropping power by 10-20W could be enough.

I have "breaks" when riding off the saddle for 5-10 secs every once in a while but my watts won't drop much. I should try some other saddle to prevent certain numbness.

Piotr said:

What's causing him to do this is fatigue due to an overestimated FTP, or serious lack of form. Get him down to where he can ride 20 min without these rests. I'd say that "inability to ride at threshold" is kind of a giveaway.

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Piotr,

I disagree.

I don't think it is an "inability", so much as it is a "choice".

About the "serious lack of form" comment: I guess if you call 85 peak CTL, an average in the mid-70s and over 23000 TSS points for the year as lacking form... OK You are entitled to your opinion...

We have seen the same pattern, regardless of wattage or interval length, over the past year. The intervals are always done on a set of rollers and the breaks are short; 5 - 7 seconds.

They typically happen every 4 - 7 minutes; right were a cyclist would typically stand during a ride outdoors.

Peter, my thought, initially, was the same as yours. I didn't want him to get into a pattern and have it affect his racing. Since he never does any time trialing and he has done hour long climbs during his longer rides without these mini-breaks, I stopped dwelling on it. It has never shown to be a limiter during his racing, as well...

Jim

Long intervals are boring. He may be standing on the pedals to relieve saddle pressure, stretch ankles and hamstrings, back, etc.

I suspect this won't happen in a competition situation, on a long climb or a TT (sounds like subject is not a TTer....which is fine).

peterwright said:

Jim - I agree

In this case it is by no means an overstated FTP or a lack of form. This is an elite / semi pro rider who regularly performs at a level that backs up my FTP and has also completed a 60 min TT at this level.

In his races he always has the highest economy rating of all my riders - often at 23-25% time spent not pedalling, so it is a pattern in his riding that certainly helps his racing rather than hinder it.

I think it is a lack of focus and a need to change position etc.

Peter

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3 x 20 @ FTP is an exceptionally difficult task. In my experience it's nearly impossible to do if the FTP setpoint came from a race effort. I'd try to bring the AP down 3-5% for the first two reps and then ramp up a bit on the last one if anything is left.