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"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for Bicycles on Trains Free...

post #1 of 258
2/10/07 at 7:17am
Thread Starter 
Did anyone else get the above e-mail? (Link to text
http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page10943.asp
)

Seems to me the next step is to raise a petition to require the DOT to
include a requirement in future farnchise bids for companies to provide free
transport for bikes.
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post #2 of 258
2/10/07 at 7:43am

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

"Graham Harrison" <edward.harrison1@castle.btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:wt6dnT4WcMl6BlDYnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
> Did anyone else get the above e-mail? (Link to text
> http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page10943.asp
> )
>
> Seems to me the next step is to raise a petition to require the DOT to
> include a requirement in future farnchise bids for companies to provide
free
> transport for bikes.
>

Forgive me for asking, but why free transport for bikes?

Space on trains for bikes by all means but I think cyclists along with the
rest of us should pay for the space they use.


--
Paul Stevenson
--
For railway photos see ebay
http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQsassZpdsteveoQQhtZ-1



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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post #3 of 258
2/10/07 at 8:10am

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provisionfor Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

Bill Harris wrote on 10/02/2007 11:02 +0100:
> On Feb 10, 10:17 am, "Graham Harrison"
> <edward.harris...@castle.btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Did anyone else get the above e-mail? (Link to
>> texthttp://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page10943.asp )
>>
>> Seems to me the next step is to raise a petition to require the DOT
>> to include a requirement in future farnchise bids for companies to
>> provide free transport for bikes.
>
> Perhaps those of us who are not cyclists or only casual cyclists
> would feel a bit more sympathy to this cause when cyclists start to
> comply with the requirements of the highway code. ie No cycling on
> pavements, comply with traffic lights, have lights on their bikes
> after dark etc etc etc
>

ITYM highway users start to comply with the Highway Code. Why single
out cyclists and what has it got to do with carriage on trains? Does
the Channel Tunnel refuse to carry cars because they break the speed
limit and parking restrictions?

--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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post #4 of 258
2/10/07 at 9:39am

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for
Handgliders on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."



"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for
Double Bass and Drum Kits on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train
operators."



"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for
Any length of wood or composite material that is normally sold by B&Q on
Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."



Where will it end?
--
Ken Ward

"Society for the production of Maritime Reefs using MerseyRail 142's"
(For membership email... mersey142.splash@ntlworld.com)
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post #5 of 258
2/10/07 at 9:52am

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provisionfor Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

Ken Ward wrote on 10/02/2007 12:39 +0100:
> "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for
> Handgliders on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."
>
> "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for
> Double Bass and Drum Kits on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train
> operators."
>
> "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for
> Any length of wood or composite material that is normally sold by B&Q on
> Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."
>
> Where will it end?

Perhaps with complimentary modes of transportation? A bicycle is
something that can be carried on the train and allows many more
transport options than without. I am going to a meeting with a work
colleague this week and we will both cycle from the train station to our
meeting on our folding bikes. Without the bikes we would have to drive
as it is a rural station with no taxis and the meeting is too far from
the station to walk. If your drum kits and hardware store goods could
do that you might have a point but they don't and you don't.

--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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post #6 of 258
2/10/07 at 9:55am

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provisionfor Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

JP wrote on 10/02/2007 12:07 +0100:
>
> Laudable idea, obviously many practical difficulties.

Why is it that British trains have so many practical difficulties and
perceived delays with bicycles whereas in Switzerland, Germany, Denmark,
Finland etc the railways not only run efficiently and on time but they
carry bicycles without hesitation? What are their train operators
capable of that ours aren't?

--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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post #7 of 258
2/10/07 at 10:05am

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provisionfor Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

JP wrote:
> On 10 Feb, 10:17, "Graham Harrison"
> <edward.harris...@castle.btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Did anyone else get the above e-mail? (Link to texthttp://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page10943.asp
>> )
>>
>> Seems to me the next step is to raise a petition to require the DOT to
>> include a requirement in future farnchise bids for companies to provide free
>> transport for bikes.
>
> Laudable idea, obviously many practical difficulties. Witnessed my
> first example of "bicycle" rage on SWT this week when someone brought
> a muddy/oily contraption into a train and rubbed against some standing
> passengers in the vestibule.

Was the train that overcrowded, or were they just determined to be awkward?

> On HST's only a few bikes can be carried in the van area (and no we
> don't want people using the power car van for obvious reasons)

Reasons not obvious. Is the compartment not separated from the oily hot
bits?

> The ideal solution on longer trains is a coach in the centre of the
> formation with tip up seats along the outside with space to put bikes.
> This avoids people running one end to the other when a train is in
> reverse formation. On HST's I would suggest the redundant buffets
> could be a trial conversion.

Seems reasonable.

> The market may increase. Convince Tom
> Harris though? Doubt it.

Hardly seems important.

> The German 423/424 series of units cope with
> this admirably and passengers with bikes are welcome. Over here cost
> overrides everything and the DfT would rob Peter to pay Paul.
> I take a bike for my commute as there is a cycle track from the
> station to the depot, but I've decided to compromise and have a bike
> that folds into a bag for taking on the train. It won't win any races
> but is perfectly rideable and practical as something for daily use.

Fine, for a short and regular ride. Not all of us have such a pattern
to our work, and some have a long ride to the station that would stretch
the capabilities of a folder.

> In
> terms of daily delays there are many hundreds of little incidents
> across the UK that are due to cyclists getting their bikes on and off
> the train and it is common to see people waiting to load and offload
> their machines.

In years of using trains, I have never seen this. I am frequently out
of the station and away up the road on my bike before the train leaves,
and when boarding I have stowed my bike and sat down before the doors
close. Even when I'm not the only cyclist.

> Cheap bikes are often kept at both ends
> of a train journey, cheap due to theft concerns.

Again, fine for regular journeys.

> The folding bike market howvever is growing and they're
> reducing in price.
>

Really? Bromptons seem to be getting dearer.
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post #8 of 258
2/10/07 at 10:13am
Thread Starter 

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

"Colin McKenzie" <news@proof-read.co.uk> wrote in message
news:45cdbdeb$0$8757$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
> MIG wrote:
> > On Feb 10, 10:17 am, "Graham Harrison"
> > <edward.harris...@castle.btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>Seems to me the next step is to raise a petition to require the DOT to
> >>include a requirement in future farnchise bids for companies to provide
free
> >>transport for bikes.
> >
> > I think the free carriage thing is a red herring. A reasonable fee
> > might be ... reasonable. There's a more general problem that trains
> > are being designed very inappropriately. Although not always.
>
> Well, we don't want to lose free carriage off-peak, but I agree in
> principle.
>
> First we need all trains to be capable of carrying bikes. Then we need
> bikes to be allowed at ALL times. Companies will be allowed to charge
> a fee at peak times, up to the full adult single fare.
>
> It's easier to enforce a charge than a ban, and there are times when
> taking a bike at peak times is worth paying a high fare for.
>
> Colin McKenzie
>
>
> --
> No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at
> the population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as
> walking.
> Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.
>

I think I will admit to a bit of exaggeration to kick off debate in my
original post! I agree that train design is probably the biggest issue.

The question then becomes how to craft wording for a new petition that will
meet the various objections that have been expressed and achieve a
resolution. What it comes down to (in my view) is that a train plus a
bicycle can make a very effective and efficient method of transport which is
currently being strangled.

How about

"ensure that future franchisees are required to provide trains that offer
the ability to carry all bicycles presented for travel without reservation
at all times of the day with off peak travel being free and peak travel
being charged at no more than half the fare paid by the rider of the
bicycle"?

Definition of peak and off peak is probably quite simple in a commuting
environment but on rural and long distance/inter city needs some work.
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post #9 of 258
2/10/07 at 10:18am

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

In article <02jzh.11670$OK6.5268@newsfe4-win.ntli.net>, Ken Ward
ken.g1itv@MTLworld.com says...
> "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for
> Handgliders on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."
>
>
>
> "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for
> Double Bass and Drum Kits on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train
> operators."
>
>
>
> "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for
> Any length of wood or composite material that is normally sold by B&Q on
> Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."
>
>
But cycling is going to save the planet.
:-)
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post #10 of 258
2/10/07 at 10:18am

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

In article <535tllF1o37fpU2@mid.individual.net>, Tony Raven
junk@raven-family.com says...
> JP wrote on 10/02/2007 12:07 +0100:
> >
> > Laudable idea, obviously many practical difficulties.
>
> Why is it that British trains have so many practical difficulties and
> perceived delays with bicycles whereas in Switzerland, Germany, Denmark,
> Finland etc the railways not only run efficiently and on time but they
> carry bicycles without hesitation? What are their train operators
> capable of that ours aren't?
>
>
They're part of a proper integrated transport system rather than playing
second fiddle to road haulage and private motoring interests.
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post #11 of 258
2/10/07 at 10:23am

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

"JP" <jonporter1052@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1171109269.898212.129990@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

> On HST's only a few bikes can be carried in the van area (and no we
> don't want people using the power car van for obvious reasons)

'scuse ignorance, but what are the obvious reasons?

cheers,
clive
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post #12 of 258
2/10/07 at 10:23am

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

"Bill Harris" <william@harrishartford.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
news:1171105370.087738.8080@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Perhaps those of us who are not cyclists or only casual cyclists would
> feel a bit more sympathy to this cause when cyclists start to comply
> with the requirements of the highway code. ie No cycling on pavements,
> comply with traffic lights, have lights on their bikes after dark etc
> etc etc

Actually, cyclists do comply with the requirements of the highway code and
the law of the land. This one does, as do (I suspect) most members of this
forum.

That off my chest, back to the original post:

I think that demands for *free* carriage of cycles are unreasonable and
that this is evident if you consider a reasonable takeup of people using a
combination of rail and bike for their daily commute. The amount of space
required to carry a reasonable number of bikes means that the same length
train can't carry so many passengers. I suspect that they'd lose the
capacity for one standing passenger for every one or two bikes carried, and
they'd either need to increase the size of the trains (which I doubt they
can - or they would have already), or reduce the passenger capacity. So the
best that we could hope for would be mandatory space to carry bicycles and
bike tickets that are reasonable priced.

Of course, the franchisee could increase the cost of all fares to pay for
the carriage of bicycles, but I suspect the majority of passenger (who
aren't cyclists) would consider that grossly unfair and would be unlikely
to support such a move.
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post #13 of 258
2/10/07 at 10:44am

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provisionfor Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

Rob Morley wrote:
> In article <535tllF1o37fpU2@mid.individual.net>, Tony Raven
> junk@raven-family.com says...
>> JP wrote on 10/02/2007 12:07 +0100:
>>> Laudable idea, obviously many practical difficulties.
>> Why is it that British trains have so many practical difficulties and
>> perceived delays with bicycles whereas in Switzerland, Germany, Denmark,
>> Finland etc the railways not only run efficiently and on time but they
>> carry bicycles without hesitation? What are their train operators
>> capable of that ours aren't?
>>
>>
> They're part of a proper integrated transport system rather than playing
> second fiddle to road haulage and private motoring interests.

Which is probably true, and almost but not quite entirely irrelevant to
their ability to carry a gentleman's velocipede.
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post #14 of 258
2/10/07 at 12:01pm

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provisionfor Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

Paul Stevenson wrote on 10/02/2007 10:43 +0100:
>
> Forgive me for asking, but why free transport for bikes?
>
> Space on trains for bikes by all means but I think cyclists along with the
> rest of us should pay for the space they use.
>

I'm not aware of the trains charging yet for other than the seat you
occupy, if one is available. Some do charge for bikes but not for
suitcases, musical instruments, baby buggies, wheelchairs etc etc.
Perhaps it should go to a Ryanair model where you pay extra for each
piece of luggage but that's not how its done at present.



--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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post #15 of 258
2/10/07 at 12:11pm

Re: "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the provision for Bicycles on Trains Free and Compulsory by all train operators."

Graham Harrison <edward.harrison1@castle.btinternet.com> wrote:

> "Colin McKenzie" <news@proof-read.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:45cdbdeb$0$8757$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
> > MIG wrote:
> > > On Feb 10, 10:17 am, "Graham Harrison"
> > > <edward.harris...@castle.btinternet.com> wrote:
> > >>Seems to me the next step is to raise a petition to require the DOT to
> > >>include a requirement in future farnchise bids for companies to provide
> free
> > >>transport for bikes.
> > >
> > > I think the free carriage thing is a red herring. A reasonable fee
> > > might be ... reasonable. There's a more general problem that trains
> > > are being designed very inappropriately. Although not always.
> >
> > Well, we don't want to lose free carriage off-peak, but I agree in
> > principle.
> >
> > First we need all trains to be capable of carrying bikes. Then we need
> > bikes to be allowed at ALL times. Companies will be allowed to charge
> > a fee at peak times, up to the full adult single fare.
> >
> > It's easier to enforce a charge than a ban, and there are times when
> > taking a bike at peak times is worth paying a high fare for.
> >
> > Colin McKenzie
> >
> >
> > --
> > No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at
> > the population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as
> > walking.
> > Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.
> >
>
> I think I will admit to a bit of exaggeration to kick off debate in my
> original post! I agree that train design is probably the biggest issue.
>
yes.

> The question then becomes how to craft wording for a new petition that will
> meet the various objections that have been expressed and achieve a
> resolution. What it comes down to (in my view) is that a train plus a
> bicycle can make a very effective and efficient method of transport which is
> currently being strangled.
>
> How about
>
> "ensure that future franchisees are required to provide trains that offer
> the ability to carry all bicycles presented for travel without reservation
> at all times of the day with off peak travel being free and peak travel
> being charged at no more than half the fare paid by the rider of the
> bicycle"?
>
unrealistic, seeing as train useage is growing. and thus the trains more
packed. to solve you need bigger or more trains which will then put
pressure on the staions, rail lines etc.

it sounds fairly pricy to do.

i can see why you want it, just not sure that the train companies will
have the desire to do it, be low on the list i'd guess.

> Definition of peak and off peak is probably quite simple in a commuting
> environment but on rural and long distance/inter city needs some work.

roger
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