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Is there bike snobbery? - Page 3

post #31 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

In article <dom.2mmsen@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com>,
::dom:: <dom.2mmsen@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> says...
>
> To tell you the
> truth, I never heard anyone make a derogatory remark about another's
> bike.


Not the bike per se, but perhaps its state of repair? Those with
squeaky chains, rattling derailleurs, squealing brakes and wobbly wheels
tend to be the subject of some good-natured derision IME. Along with
offers to show the owner how to sort it out.
post #32 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

in message <abCdneb1QuPL737YnZ2dnUVZ8tKsnZ2d@bt.com>, Adam Lea
('asrlea@btinternet.com') wrote:

> "Mark Thompson"
> <pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com> wrote in
> message news:Xns98E35731C4FEFpleasegivegenerously@130.133.1.4...
>>> The lads at the XXX cycle club all ride
>>> around on 5K jobbies and they'll laugh at ya. Is this right?

>>
>> In my limited experience it's all about being able to keep up. There's
>> little difference in speed between a racing bike and a cheapo maountain
>> bike like yours - just make sure the tyres are pumped up to maximum
>> pressure and the brakes work well.

>
> That doesn't seem to be the opinion of the people at the club I go to. I
> regularly turn up to their intermediate ride on a Sunday morning on a
> Birdy tourer (which attracts some attention) and the others seem quite
> impressed that I can keep up on it. I asked what it would take to move up
> to the sporting group and they said, apart from lots of training that I
> would need a proper road bike. One thing I have noticed is that the
> others can outrun me if we are freewheeling downhill so I would think
> that there is something about my particular bike that requires more
> effort to propel than a standard road bike.


In which case you're fitter than them and, when you do get on a good road
bike, will either be faster or will work less hard.

Having said that, most of downhill performance is about air drag. I say
this as someone who has always been slower up hills than the people I ride
with, and who consequently tries to make it up on the downhills. And
there's no reason that I can see why you shouldn't be able to set your
birdy up to allow you to get into just as good an aerodynamic tuck as on a
conventional road bike.

Things I'd try include getting the handlebars a couple of inches lower, or
fitting 'clip-on' tribars. A word of warning though - do NOT use tribars
on a downhill which you don't know or where sightlines are poor. I speak
from experience! If you don't currently wear lycra, wear lycra. Flapping
clothing generates a quite remarkable amount of drag.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; this is not a .sig
post #33 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

"salmon" <mrjohnsalmon@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1172430144.823104.99320@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Saw bloke who works in cycle store, told him I joined club. He said
did my bike have nuts holding the rear wheel on. Answer Yes. Well it's
a toy bike, get rid of it. The lads at the XXX cycle club all ride
around on 5K jobbies and they'll laugh at ya. Is this right?

Well I cant comment on bike clubs having never belonged to one but certainly
many bike shops and cyclists have biases against electric bikes. The sorts
of views include that they're intended for elderly people or those not up to
ordinary cycling also that they're an answer to a non-existent problem - all
plainly untrue as anyone who went to the electric bike rally in Wales last
year would have seen. Having recently enquired about a particular model of
electric bike from a distributor of the brand, which predominantly makes
conventional bikes, I was told they wont touch electric bikes. When I
enquired further I was told it was because they'd had a bad run with other
(much cheaper) brands of electric bikes they'd sold in the past, how's that
for judging a book by another ones cover!

Paul
post #34 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

in message <45e41b9e$0$8734$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Paul
Murphy ('p_murphynothanks@tospamhotmail.com') wrote:

> Well I cant comment on bike clubs having never belonged to one but
> certainly many bike shops and cyclists have biases against electric
> bikes.


This is so. I wonder why it could be?

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; So, before proceeding with definitive screwing, choose the
;; position most congenital.
-- instructions for fitting bicycle handlebars
post #35 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

Paul Murphy wrote:
> Well I cant comment on bike clubs having never belonged to one but certainly
> many bike shops and cyclists have biases against electric bikes. The sorts
> of views include that they're intended for elderly people or those not up to
> ordinary cycling ...


That's me.

> also that they're an answer to a non-existent problem


That's not.

I am generally of the opinion that electric bikes are for the elderly,
the infirm, and people who often have to carry heavy loads up hills.

OTOH I sometimes long for electric assist during winter commutes, and if
I get another motorbike when I'm older I'd really like to be able to buy
an electric bike with the power and styling of a proper motorbike, but
without the engine noise.

I have a, possibly slightly unusual, reason for disliking electric
bikes. My first encounter with one was on my way to work one morning.
There was a guy ahead of me riding an electric bike, entirely under
electric power, smoking a fag. Because he was riding at his maximum
speed of ~15 mph and I was riding at about 18 mph, I was stuck in his
noxious cloud for what seemed like ages. And I couldn't speed up to get
past quicker, because the air was too foul to start taking deeper breaths.

I have, however, seen how electric bikes can be useful in getting
someone onto a proper bike. About 6 or 7 years ago I noticed someone
regularly riding in the opposite direction on an electric bike when I
was riding to work. A few months later, he progressed to a cheap
mountain bike. A few months after that, he upgraded it. I still see
him most days.


--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
post #36 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

"Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
news:s69db4-no7.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> in message <abCdneb1QuPL737YnZ2dnUVZ8tKsnZ2d@bt.com>, Adam Lea
> ('asrlea@btinternet.com') wrote:
>
>> "Mark Thompson"
>> <pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com> wrote in
>> message news:Xns98E35731C4FEFpleasegivegenerously@130.133.1.4...
>>>> The lads at the XXX cycle club all ride
>>>> around on 5K jobbies and they'll laugh at ya. Is this right?
>>>
>>> In my limited experience it's all about being able to keep up. There's
>>> little difference in speed between a racing bike and a cheapo maountain
>>> bike like yours - just make sure the tyres are pumped up to maximum
>>> pressure and the brakes work well.

>>
>> That doesn't seem to be the opinion of the people at the club I go to. I
>> regularly turn up to their intermediate ride on a Sunday morning on a
>> Birdy tourer (which attracts some attention) and the others seem quite
>> impressed that I can keep up on it. I asked what it would take to move up
>> to the sporting group and they said, apart from lots of training that I
>> would need a proper road bike. One thing I have noticed is that the
>> others can outrun me if we are freewheeling downhill so I would think
>> that there is something about my particular bike that requires more
>> effort to propel than a standard road bike.

>
> In which case you're fitter than them and, when you do get on a good road
> bike, will either be faster or will work less hard.


I'm not sure I am, as at the end of the ride last Sunday a couple of them
sprinted the last two miles through Horsham which coincided with a blustery
headwind and I had no chance of keeping up with them, so I can keep up with
them as long as they are not "going for it".

>
> Having said that, most of downhill performance is about air drag. I say
> this as someone who has always been slower up hills than the people I ride
> with, and who consequently tries to make it up on the downhills. And
> there's no reason that I can see why you shouldn't be able to set your
> birdy up to allow you to get into just as good an aerodynamic tuck as on a
> conventional road bike.


I have tried getting my head right down to the point where my chin is almost
touching the handlebars but still they can freewheel faster than me down the
hills. I have been informed that small wheels are disadvantageous due to
more revolutions required for a given distance thus there is more friction
between moving parts.

>
> Things I'd try include getting the handlebars a couple of inches lower, or
> fitting 'clip-on' tribars. A word of warning though - do NOT use tribars
> on a downhill which you don't know or where sightlines are poor. I speak
> from experience! If you don't currently wear lycra, wear lycra. Flapping
> clothing generates a quite remarkable amount of drag.


I have the handlebars as low as they will go. I will try and move the saddle
back a bit and see if that helps. I must admit though - trying to get my
head down does seem to compromise visability.

>
> --
> simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
>
> ;; this is not a .sig
post #37 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

"Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
news:33eeb4-lmt.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> in message <45e41b9e$0$8734$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Paul
> Murphy ('p_murphynothanks@tospamhotmail.com') wrote:
>> certainly many bike shops and cyclists have biases against electric
>> bikes.

>
> This is so. I wonder why it could be?


Different reasons for different people but it's all undesirable, especially
when choice in new bicycles is reduced as a consequence. Certasinly those
riding electric bikes need to be self confident and thick skinned towards
it.

Paul
post #38 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

"Danny Colyer" <danny_colyer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45e48c2f$0$8736$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
> Paul Murphy wrote:
>> Well I cant comment on bike clubs having never belonged to one but
>> certainly many bike shops and cyclists have biases against electric
>> bikes. The sorts of views include that they're intended for elderly
>> people or those not up to ordinary cycling ...

>
> That's me.


If you want to see the truth, there will be another electric bike rally in
Presteign, Radnorshire around the middle of this year. There you will see
riders of all ages and abilities.

<snip>
> OTOH I sometimes long for electric assist during winter commutes, and if I
> get another motorbike when I'm older I'd really like to be able to buy an
> electric bike with the power and styling of a proper motorbike, but
> without the engine noise.


Not sure what you'd find along these lines but certainly there are now a few
electric bikes which to the untrained eye look exactly the same as unpowered
bicycles and are almost silent in operation - inaudible unless you're very
close or riding one and in a very quiet area.

> I have a, possibly slightly unusual, reason for disliking electric bikes.
> My first encounter with one was on my way to work one morning. There was a
> guy ahead of me riding an electric bike, entirely under electric power,
> smoking a fag. Because he was riding at his maximum speed of ~15 mph and
> I was riding at about 18 mph, I was stuck in his noxious cloud for what
> seemed like ages. And I couldn't speed up to get past quicker, because
> the air was too foul to start taking deeper breaths.


Surely the point here is that you disliked that riders behaviour and he
happened to be riding an electric bike at the time. It could well have been
a person riding a conventional bike and you still would have been annoyed.
How will it be if your fag smoker is ahead of you on one of these
clandestine electric assist bikes? You'll need to get to know the market of
electric bikes so you can tell which models there are. Although some of the
models can be ridden entirely under their own power, many require at least
some pedal input before the motor will assist.

> I have, however, seen how electric bikes can be useful in getting someone
> onto a proper bike.


So is there anything 'improper' about electric assist bikes, if so what?
Normally the term proper would be applied to something which is missing
parts or isn't quite up to a task that would be normally expected of it.
Most of the electric bikes I know of are more technologically advanced and
will far exceed the capabilities of conventional bikes under common usage
conditions.

Paul
post #39 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

Danny Colyer said the following on 27/02/2007 19:52:

> I have a, possibly slightly unusual, reason for disliking electric
> bikes. My first encounter with one was on my way to work one morning.


My first encounter with one was one being ridden by a very
school-teachery woman. I live not far from a set of lights, and thought
I could get through them to my house before they changed back to red. I
couldn't, so scooted up to them, dismounted and walked the bike along
the pavement for the few yards to my house. I was told off for RLJing by
this woman riding an electric bike - on the pavement. She was waiting
on the /pavement/ to use the /pedestrian/ crossing, and apparently saw
no irony when I pointed out the slight flaw in her logic.

I do sometimes see another woman riding one of these contraptions, but
she goes by the same rules as any other cyclist, but slower :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
post #40 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

in message <45e530cf$0$8745$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Paul
Murphy ('p_murphynothanks@tospamhotmail.com') wrote:

>> I have, however, seen how electric bikes can be useful in getting
>> someone onto a proper bike.

>
> So is there anything 'improper' about electric assist bikes, if so what?


For heaven's sake, isn't that a bit like asking a bishop if there's
anything 'improper' about holding an impromptu orgy in the vestry?

If you want rational arguments about electric bikes, I'll give you them.
But what it really boils down to is that you are taking one of the purest
expressions of elegant technology, and sticking a motor in it.
It's /obscene/, sacrilege, an utter offence against God and man (and,
especially, cyclist).

When it comes down to it, a bicycle needs a motor, like, errr, a fish needs
a bicycle.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I'll have a proper rant later, when I get the time.
post #41 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

"Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
news:jdqfb4-upo.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> in message <45e530cf$0$8745$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Paul
> Murphy ('p_murphynothanks@tospamhotmail.com') wrote:
>
>>> I have, however, seen how electric bikes can be useful in getting
>>> someone onto a proper bike.

>>
>> So is there anything 'improper' about electric assist bikes, if so what?

>
> For heaven's sake, isn't that a bit like asking a bishop if there's
> anything 'improper' about holding an impromptu orgy in the vestry?


For heavens sake I think you're avoiding answering my question. Whats so
hard about a yes or no and a rational explanation (other than perhaps the
possibility there isn't one)?

> If you want rational arguments about electric bikes, I'll give you them.
> But what it really boils down to is that you are taking one of the purest
> expressions of elegant technology, and sticking a motor in it.
> It's /obscene/, sacrilege, an utter offence against God and man (and,
> especially, cyclist).


I just want people to think about this issue and be aware there's predjudice
(and clearly lots of it). As a glider pilot I could agree with your above
view if only I believed it to be correct. I put it to you that a persons
interpretation of what is the 'purest expression of elegant technology' is
very much in the eye of the beholder. Some people might think a penny
farthing fit's the bill - it is after all much 'purer' than modern bikes. Is
it right to say that just because your view of whats the purest form....
differs to someone elses, that it has to be only your way. Lots of cycle
shop proprieters and staff seem to think so, not to mention cyclists.

> When it comes down to it, a bicycle needs a motor, like, errr, a fish
> needs
> a bicycle.


When it comes down to it, it depends on the circumstances as to how much
benefit a power assisted bike will offer owners over a conventional bike. If
you want to put forward a convincing argument I'll listen....

Paul
post #42 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

Paul Murphy said the following on 27/02/2007 11:52:

> Well I cant comment on bike clubs having never belonged to one but certainly
> many bike shops and cyclists have biases against electric bikes.


....and talking of electric bikes, well, scooters, I just saw this in The
Engineer:-
http://theengineer.co.uk/Articles/298387/SCOOT's+clean+pair+of+wheels.htm

Imagine the rush hour roads full of these instead of cars???

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
post #43 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

Well, that URL got well and truly broken. Try http://tinyurl.com/27tu7t
instead.

(Why can't companies use proper URLs????)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
post #44 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

"Paul Boyd" <usenet.dont.work@plusnet> wrote in message
news:45e537e2$0$8735$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
> Danny Colyer said the following on 27/02/2007 19:52:
>
>> I have a, possibly slightly unusual, reason for disliking electric bikes.
>> My first encounter with one was on my way to work one morning.

>
> My first encounter with one was one being ridden by a very school-teachery
> woman. I live not far from a set of lights, and thought I could get
> through them to my house before they changed back to red. I couldn't, so
> scooted up to them, dismounted and walked the bike along the pavement for
> the few yards to my house. I was told off for RLJing by this woman riding
> an electric bike - on the pavement. She was waiting on the /pavement/ to
> use the /pedestrian/ crossing, and apparently saw no irony when I pointed
> out the slight flaw in her logic.


It's amazing how first encounters can sour a persons impressions of
something not even relevant. If you're saying that this single incident (or
incidents if you count both) means riders of electric bikes differ markedly
to those who ride conventional bikes then come along to Presteign mid year
and be prepared to have your pre-conceptions blown apart. As for the bike
itself, the behaviour of this woman says nothing about the merrits of the
technology and she could have just as likely been riding a conventional
bike.

> I do sometimes see another woman riding one of these contraptions, but she
> goes by the same rules as any other cyclist, but slower :-)


Imagine how much slower still she'd go if she was on a non-powerassisted
bike. Although power assistance must cut out at 15 mph to be legal in the UK
(the rules vary from country to country), there's nothing to stop the rider
pedalling faster beyond this and the assistance provided below 15 mph
normally gives a rider more energy reserves to do so beyond the negatives of
any small weight penalties of the technology (at least on well designed
bikes and common commuting routes and distances).

Paul M
post #45 of 404

Re: Is there bike snobbery?

"Paul Boyd" <usenet.dont.work@plusnet> wrote in message
news:45e5625f$0$8753$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
> Well, that URL got well and truly broken. Try http://tinyurl.com/27tu7t
> instead.


The first link worked for me but I must say that doesn't look to be my cup
of tea. I'm surprised to see they mentioned it's classified as a bicycle
given it has no pedals. If it's effortless low speed personal transport
people want, when the price comes (way) down, the Sedgeway will be hard to
beat and best of all if you owned one, you wouldn't need to worry about
people like Mr Bush ruining your street cred (he tried riding one but fell
off).

Paul M
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