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post #16 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyj
If you feel that the reference to "Chrestus" "obviously" could not refer to Christ, then it follows that most of the recorded names found in the "Jesus Tomb" could not be those referenced in the New Testament documents, because their spellings do not match those of our day and language either. Your logic rebuts the Jesus Tomb book and documentary.
I said nothing about the tomb. I referred to supposed references in the historical record that have been tied to Jesus by the name "Chrestus" even though that name was extremely common and the references are obviously do not refer to Jesus. People are willing to grasp at straws to back their beliefs.

As far as the tomb goes, it looks to be a fraud being sensationalized for the almighty buck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyj
You are not correct on the Mark 16 comment. It is the section of Mark verses 9-20 that are not included in the earliest texts, not the entire chapter. You will find "resurrection" mentioned in all earlier manuscripts (v.6 for example).
I never said the entire chapter was added. Specificially there is a difference between saying the tomb was empty with someone claiming Jesus had been resurrected and saying his disciples kicked back and chowed down with the resurrected Jesus. Those added twelve verses change things quite a bit. And that just points to the major problem with the gospels as evidence. Aside from being written forty to sixty years after Jesus' death, they have been doctored to reflect the beliefs of christianity at the time of the writing; and that contradicts one of the benefits of comtemporary evidence in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyj
I'm not sure how "close to contemporary" you believe historical documents/investigation need be. We are drawing conclusions from the assassination of JFK over 40 years ago and Martin Luther King Jr years ago, and it's pretty clear that 2000 years from now we will be considered contempories of those events.
Contemporary means what it means. Accounts by people who lived at the same time and, presumably, have first hand knowledge. In two thousand years we will be able to examine records made during the 1950s and 1960s and find overwhelming numbers of references to Kennedy and his assassination. Even though Jesus had, according to the gospels, a huge following that flocked to hear him speak, there exists not a shred of proof in Jewish or Roman records. Everything comes from hearsay, which was record at least forty to sixy years after Jesus was gone.

It should not be surprising that nothing exists to prove Jesus existed. We are talking about events that happened two thousand years ago, and a man who at the time was a nobody. Just because his followers would eventually grow into a worldwide religion does not make him important to anyone who dealt with him when he was alive. Huge amounts of writings from Roman times have disappeared, unfortunately. We don't have the memoirs of Sulla, one of the most important men in Roman history; so why should we expect to have a record of one of many self proclaimed prophets in a province of the Roman empire?
post #17 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
This is incorrect. There is nothing that is even close to being contemporary with Jesus.
I disagree.

It is accepted, historically, that Jesus of Nazareth, did exist.
Josephus and other Jewish chroniclers of the time attest to the fact that he did in fact exist.

If people choose not to believe that Jesus of Nazareth of Christ, then that is a different matter.
But historically, factually, it is accepted that Jesus existed and that he lived.
post #18 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
I said nothing about the tomb. I referred to supposed references in the historical record that have been tied to Jesus by the name "Chrestus" even though that name was extremely common and the references are obviously do not refer to Jesus. People are willing to grasp at straws to back their beliefs.
The tomb is the subject of this thread. I assumed you were addressing that. And yes, I agree, you are grasping at straws, but don't feel bad, I find myself doing that at times as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
As far as the tomb goes, it looks to be a fraud being sensationalized for the almighty buck.
On this I think we agree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
I never said the entire chapter was added. Specificially there is a difference between saying the tomb was empty with someone claiming Jesus had been resurrected and saying his disciples kicked back and chowed down with the resurrected Jesus. Those added twelve verses change things quite a bit. And that just points to the major problem with the gospels as evidence. Aside from being written forty to sixty years after Jesus' death, they have been doctored to reflect the beliefs of christianity at the time of the writing; and that contradicts one of the benefits of comtemporary evidence in the first place.
You said the "resurrection ending." Resurrection is not mentioned in the verses you reference. It is found before that. The section you mention is the "commission" ending (see v.15).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
It should not be surprising that nothing exists to prove Jesus existed. We are talking about events that happened two thousand years ago, and a man who at the time was a nobody. Just because his followers would eventually grow into a worldwide religion does not make him important to anyone who dealt with him when he was alive. Huge amounts of writings from Roman times have disappeared, unfortunately. We don't have the memoirs of Sulla, one of the most important men in Roman history; so why should we expect to have a record of one of many self proclaimed prophets in a province of the Roman empire?
It's interesting that a "nobody" has had more historical influence than anybody else I am aware of in history- including "one of the most important men in Roman history" - Sulla. Sulla who? We do not live in the Year of Sulla, 2007.

I agree, "huge amounts of writings from Roman times have disappeared," and that means we may never be able to "prove" any more about this Jesus of Nazareth. The fact is that he is one of the most influencial men in history, whether we agree with him or not.
post #19 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

The dude said some very cool things and if we humans lived by those teachings,which we do not a lot of the time,we would live in a much better world.
Whether you believe or not it would be hard to dispute this fact. I chose to believe,maybe not the way others do but in my own way.
post #20 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhuskey
The dude said some very cool things and if we humans lived by those teachings,which we do not a lot of the time,we would live in a much better world.
Whether you believe or not it would be hard to dispute this fact. I chose to believe,maybe not the way others do but in my own way.
Your posting could be a very good thread in itself......... I am Catholic...Am I a good Catholic? I don't know. That was the conversation I had over morning coffee the past 2 hours with a friend. She is a extremly devoted individual towards the faith......

I do not consider myself a very religious individual as most would define "religious." However, I am very devoted to the the charities that are spawned by the Catholic Church..... So I am somewhat defensive about people attacking Christianity...... Too many people define 'Christianity" as the Falwells of the world. So they attack all.
jhusky is right. How can we go wrong with the teachings of this Jesus?? Even if Jesus was just a man????? Isn't this the world we all would want to live in ????
I enjoy listening to younger college students who ramble on about the intelligent insight of the Far East religions, but toss the Bible out as being full of falsehoods.
I am not a Bible thumper..... Most of my friends/family are either gangsters or priests........[ I figure that these are the only people you can really trust] But I question the motives of individuals who want to tear down christianity.
Just a thought.......
Continue on..........
post #21 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyj
You said the "resurrection ending." Resurrection is not mentioned in the verses you reference. It is found before that. The section you mention is the "commission" ending (see v.15).
And I did not define what I meant by that did I? So don't try to create a strawman with your own definition. Quite a lot was added with the additional versus. The gospel of Mark went from we were told he rose from the dead to he came back and chilled with his homeboys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyj
It's interesting that a "nobody" has had more historical influence than anybody else I am aware of in history- including "one of the most important men in Roman history" - Sulla. Sulla who? We do not live in the Year of Sulla, 2007.
You are completely missing the point. Sulla was one of the most important men in roman history and his actions led directly to the fall of the republic. Yet we don't have important writings from him, writings that would have been considered essential history for the next several hundred years. If those writings could be lost then it is rather ludicrous to think something recording the existence of a carpenter, who would not become important for nearly three hundred years and who lived in an outer province, would have survived.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyj
The fact is that he is one of the most influencial men in history, whether we agree with him or not.
Of course, he was. But that does not have anything to do with the fact that there is no historical evidence of his existence. The "evidence"is so weak that the range of time for his death date spans ten years. This does not mean he did not exist. I think if you were to make an assertion that he did not then you would need something a lot stronger than the lack of two thousand year old records. You would need some sort of evidence of a hoax.

I am just niggling with the statement that historical records of Jesus existence exist. The passage of Josephus was written forty to fifty years after Jesus' death and has been modified so much by christian scholars that it is impossible to determine what was originally written by Josphus, or whether the passage existed in the original at all.
post #22 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfix
Too many people define 'Christianity" as the Falwells of the world.
But it should be up to christians to distance themselves from Falwell and Robertson, to make it clear that these loons do not represent the majority of christians. But that is not the case. Instead the american christians have bonded into a political block.
post #23 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
But it should be up to christians to distance themselves from Falwell and Robertson, to make it clear that these loons do not represent the majority of christians. But that is not the case. Instead the american christians have bonded into a political block.

It is up to each individual to sift through what is good reasoning and what is pure crap.
In the old days I believe they were called "false prophets".
Good luck in your quest to decipher who is "pure at heart".
post #24 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
But it should be up to christians to distance themselves from Falwell and Robertson, to make it clear that these loons do not represent the majority of christians. But that is not the case. Instead the american christians have bonded into a political block.
Newspapers and TV make it look that way, but that is not how it really is. I have friends within the church who are of many political views. One is even a Democrat ;-)

What Jesus taught has nothing to do with politics. The church and politicians were conspirators in his death. If he came back today I think the same groups would want him out of here.
post #25 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhuskey
The dude said some very cool things and if we humans lived by those teachings,which we do not a lot of the time,we would live in a much better world.
The dude didn't say anything different than other religious dudes have said throughout history.

As for me, I still play my Stones records backwards.
post #26 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm
The dude didn't say anything different than other religious dudes have said throughout history.

As for me, I still play my Stones records backwards.

Good sense can be contagious.
post #27 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyj
Newspapers and TV make it look that way, but that is not how it really is. I have friends within the church who are of many political views. One is even a Democrat ;-)
Yeah, but those Southern California christians are a wee bit different than the fire breathing. born again, Southern christians. The Pat Robertson Fatwa Hour, where he announces who in the world needs to be killed or punished by god, does not play too well to the metrosexuals in SoCal.

Personally, I am not too fond of the war against science that is being waged by the believers in the U.S.
post #28 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhuskey
Good sense can be contagious.
Eastern religions were talking "good sense" long before Jesus (allegedly) showed up.
post #29 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm
Eastern religions were talking "good sense" long before Jesus (allegedly) showed up.

Yes they were, but live and believe as you will as will I.
post #30 of 99

Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
Yeah, but those Southern California christians are a wee bit different than the fire breathing. born again, Southern christians. The Pat Robertson Fatwa Hour, where he announces who in the world needs to be killed or punished by god, does not play too well to the metrosexuals in SoCal.

Personally, I am not too fond of the war against science that is being waged by the believers in the U.S.
It is interesting that at this time it isn't Christians who are making generalizations and putting down other beliefs on this thread. To quote, "Get the beam out of your own eye before you worry about the splinter in someone else's."
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