What makes a bicycle-safe drive-up window?

[email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?
>
> Here's what I thought of:
>
> Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
> 1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
> pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
> Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
> Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
> be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
> businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)
>
> Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
> bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
> (where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
> a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
> Anybody got any other ideas?
>
Require businesses that serve the public to allow cyclists to bring
their bicycles inside.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On Feb 5, 7:54 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows.  A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?

[snip]

Dear Frank,

One solution is to extend a liability waiver to businesses that allow
bicyclists to use drive-up windows at their own risk.

See the very bottom of this summary of Maine bicycle laws:

"In addition these operational laws, [LD1808] provides in Title 14:
COURT PROCEDURE -- CIVIL, §159-D, that businesses operating drive-up
windows, such as banks, restaurants, pharamacies, ATMs, etc. are
extended a liablity waiver for bicyclists using the drive-up window,
so that they may allow cyclists use of the window at the cyclist's own
risk."

http://bike.meetup.com/132/pages/Summary_of_Maine_Bicycle_Laws

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article
<4d309f81-db0d-4bec-a5f7-809ab6c19afd@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
[email protected] wrote:

> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?

Beware of unintended consequences.

> Here's what I thought of:
>
> Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
> 1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
> pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
> Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
> Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
> be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
> businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)

In my opinion, you may be overthinking this. Most cyclists are capable
of negotiating normal road conditions, which they will encounter on the
way to the drive-in regardless (that certainly goes for a snowy road).

Further, most businesses are motivated not to create dangerous
conditions for their patrons (lawsuits, dontcha know). Most drive-up
windows serve motorcyclists already, and almost everything that's a
hazard to a motorcycle is a hazard to a bicycle.

> Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
> bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
> (where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
> a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
> Anybody got any other ideas?

I'd start by finding out what safety concerns (presumably driven by
specific insurance requirements) lead drive-up windows to outlaw
bicycles in the first place.

My caution about unintended consequences was that it's entirely possible
that if you set the bar for bicycle accommodation too high, businesses
will regard the entire affair as much too much trouble and pull some
unexpected move like banning bicycles from their property altogether.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

On Feb 5, 9:23 pm, [email protected] wrote:

> One solution is to extend a liability waiver to businesses that allow
> bicyclists to use drive-up windows at their own risk.

I'm trying to think of a situation where MVD'ers would be more PO'd
than waiting behind a cyclist using a DUW.

Maybe Critical Mass. But that's about it.

So, the "at their own risk" would have to not disallow penalties for
being run over from behind on purpose.

But this isn't _really_ about safety:

"This here drive-up is for CARS!!!" If you know what I mean...

--D-y

In article
<19ef3593-6ce5-4cdc-82f9-8925b1305959@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Feb 5, 9:23 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > One solution is to extend a liability waiver to businesses that allow
> > bicyclists to use drive-up windows at their own risk.
>
> I'm trying to think of a situation where MVD'ers would be more PO'd
> than waiting behind a cyclist using a DUW.
>
> Maybe Critical Mass. But that's about it.
>
> So, the "at their own risk" would have to not disallow penalties for
> being run over from behind on purpose.

The waiver absolves the business, not other drivers. And it's a good
idea.

> But this isn't _really_ about safety:
>
> "This here drive-up is for CARS!!!" If you know what I mean...

More than anything, the issue probably involves The Unknown, and
Therefore Uninsurable. Carl's pointer to a waiver is probably the best
solution, just as similar waivers have made private-property owners
amenable to trails crossing their land.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 18:54:19 -0800 (PST), [email protected] may have
said:

>A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
>safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
>that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
>vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
>So what might be specifics?
>
>Here's what I thought of:
>
>Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
>1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
>pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
>Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
>Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
>be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
>businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)
>
>Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
>bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
>(where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
>a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
>Anybody got any other ideas?

Prohibit blind corners that keep a car or SUV driver from seeing the
bike that's just ahead of them. Too many cage jockeys pull away from
the order spot with their attention on something other than what's in
front of them, and if their line of sight was obscured just enough to
keep thm from seeing the bike that was next ahead of them, they will
blithely run right into it.



--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 04:30:50 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]>
may have said:

>I'd start by finding out what safety concerns (presumably driven by
>specific insurance requirements) lead drive-up windows to outlaw
>bicycles in the first place.

I have heard a rumor that one burger chain banned bikes in the DT lane
after getting units held up by armed pedallers twice, but that may be
apocryphal. (Bikes not having a tag to be recorded by the security
cam, they might be leery of a late-night cyclist.)

IMO, the biggest hazard in the DT lane is the idjit in the Suburban
behind you who's fishing in his pockets for his wallet while yakking
on the cell phone as he pulls forward in the lane. You're in a
no-escape location while waiting in that lane, and if the attention of
the fool behind you lapses, it could get ugly in a hurry.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[email protected] wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?
>
> Here's what I thought of:
>
> Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
> 1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
> pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
> Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
> Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
> be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
> businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)
>
> Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
> bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
> (where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
> a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
> Anybody got any other ideas?
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Gee. Are you building a mountain? I use bank drive-thrus on my bike all
the time, but I don't eat much pseudo food, so my experiences are
limited. I've never had anyone give me a hard time at a drive-thru.

I would think that a business that kept the place safe for autos would
be sufficient. The property owners don't want negligence lawsuits.
Smooth metal would be unsafe for autos as well as bikes. I'm used to
dealing with poorly maintained roads that may have large cracks and
other longitudinal issues. Grates with holes large enough for a tire to
drop in should be banned city wide, not just at drive-thrus.

As far as detectors, wouldn't a door bell buzzer work as well? Automatic
detectors often seem to fail even for cars and I often wish, while
driving my car, that there was some manual way to let the light know I
am there.

On Feb 6, 11:19 am, Kristian M Zoerhoff <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> Other things to consider are the height of the window, the sight lines,
> and painted markings on the pavement (bad when wet).
>
> Also, this might be a good time to ask for a bike rack to be installed for
> non-drive up customers, if applicable.
>

I especially like the last two ideas. I'll certainly pass those on.
Thanks.

- Frank Krygowski

On 2008-02-06, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 11:19 am, Kristian M Zoerhoff <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Other things to consider are the height of the window, the sight lines,
>> and painted markings on the pavement (bad when wet).
>>
>> Also, this might be a good time to ask for a bike rack to be installed for
>> non-drive up customers, if applicable.
>>
>
> I especially like the last two ideas. I'll certainly pass those on.
> Thanks.

You're welcome. If your zoning board buddy throws any other ideas out there,
would you mind tossing them my way? I recently got named to my village's plan
commission, so I'm going to be in a similar situation soon enough.

--

Kristian Zoerhoff
[email protected]

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 08:23:23 -0800, frkrygow wrote:

> On Feb 6, 11:19 am, Kristian M Zoerhoff <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Other things to consider are the height of the window, the sight lines,
>> and painted markings on the pavement (bad when wet).
>>
>> Also, this might be a good time to ask for a bike rack to be installed
>> for non-drive up customers, if applicable.
>>
>>
> I especially like the last two ideas. I'll certainly pass those on.
> Thanks.

I'd care more about the latter too. I have little interest in drive up
windows, but I care a lot about bike racks in front of *all* businesses.

Other than that, anything good enough for a motorcycle is good enough for
a bicycle. With experience in both you probably have some good ideas.

While I'm impressed with the earnest answers given here, get yourself on
the Thunderhead list. It's a strictly moderated Q&A forum for
bike/ped/planning/engineering professionals and bona fide advocates, with
a lot of good answers and no ****.

Matt O.

On Feb 5, 8:54 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows.  A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?
>
> Here's what I thought of:
>
> Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
> 1/2 inch.  That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
> pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
> Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
> Keep it shoveled in snow?  Perhaps salted, if necessary?  (This could
> be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue.  But then, I think
> businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)
>
> Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
> bicycle.  That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
> (where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
> a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
> Anybody got any other ideas?
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Until last month, I had never had a problem getting "bike - thru"
service at a variety of fast food places, bank drive throughs and a
Walgreen's pharmacy. But late on a weekday night in January, after
indoor service was closed, I was refused service at a McDonald's drive-
through in Rockford, IL. Whatever the reason for the policy, there
was no immediate safety issue as there were no other vehicles in
sight. My annoyance was limited by the fact that my car was at the
nearby motel I had just checked into, so I went back with it.

I'm not a particular "there ought to be a law" type of person, so I'm
not in a hurry to look for a remedy for what appeared to be an
isolated incident. But apparently, some of the rest of you have had
problems, too.

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 19:12:31 -0800 (PST), Ron Wallenfang
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>, after
>indoor service was closed, I was refused service at a McDonald's drive-
>through in Rockford, IL. Whatever the reason for the policy, there
>was no immediate safety issue as there were no other vehicles in
>sight. My annoyance was limited by the fact that my car was at the
>nearby motel I had just checked into, so I went back with it.

If you can possibly avoid it, don't give business to a place like
that.

I just found this.

http://www.midflorida.com/interest/0108/bike-thru-banking.htm

Nice!

- Frank Krygowski

On Feb 5, 9:54 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
I find this topic quite amusing. My local bank, which I frequent with
some regularity on my bicycle, removed its pedestrian and wheelchair
friendly ATM station some years ago leaving only the drive up. The
drive up ATM, to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act, has
Braille instruction. From the way the drivers often behave when I am
in line on my cycle ahead of them, the Braille is needed. They'll honk
and yell for me to use the walk-up. There is no walk-up. The drive
through is also the walk-up window. At least there are speed bumps,
but I pity the blind wheelchair user who must navigate over them
before searching for the Braille instruction on ATM use. I wonder if
the drivers honk at wheelchairs.

I'd say if you want a bicycle safe-drive through, see to it that every
bank has a walk up window on a sidewalk or pedestrian area. That
should make it safer for pedestrians, cyclists, and the handicapped
until the SUV owners start using their offroad capabilities to drive
on sidwalks to avoid congestion on the streets and highways.

Cheers,
MD

On Feb 8, 1:26 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 9:54 pm, [email protected] wrote:> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> > safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
> > that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> > vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> I find this topic quite amusing. My local bank, which I frequent with
> some regularity on my bicycle, removed its pedestrian and wheelchair
> friendly ATM station some years ago leaving only the drive up. The
> drive up ATM, to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act, has
> Braille instruction.

I'd wager that the ATM had braile even when there was a walk-up. The
drive-thru ATMs have braile because it's cheaper to make a million of
the same than 500,000 with and 500,000 without.


> From the way the drivers often behave when I am
> in line on my cycle ahead of them, the Braille is needed. They'll honk
> and yell for me to use the walk-up. There is no walk-up. The drive
> through is also the walk-up window. At least there are speed bumps,
> but I pity the blind wheelchair user who must navigate over them
> before searching for the Braille instruction on ATM use. I wonder if
> the drivers honk at wheelchairs.

Those less fortunate and/or able tend to get a pass. Do they honk at
you before you're at the ATM, or when you're there? If they are
honking saying "use the walk-up" before you get there, I suggest
turning and saying "why don't you use the walk-up? It appears you're
the one who needs the exercise, I powered my vehicle here with my own
2 legs".

The only time I really see honking @ the ATM around here is when
someone completes their transaction but insists on spending another 3
minutes putting everything in it's proper place before pulling away.
In that case, I believe it's well deserved. Pull forward a car
length, stop, and then get your 20 things situated just right while
the person behind you is using the machine you're finished with.


> I'd say if you want a bicycle safe-drive through, see to it that every
> bank has a walk up window on a sidewalk or pedestrian area.

Walk-up is often going to be less convient than drive-up for a
cyclist.


> That
> should make it safer for pedestrians, cyclists, and the handicapped
> until the SUV owners start using their offroad capabilities to drive
> on sidwalks to avoid congestion on the streets and highways.

We already do that in some situations

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:55:05 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>I'd wager that the ATM had braile even when there was a walk-up. The
>drive-thru ATMs have braile because it's cheaper to make a million of
>the same than 500,000 with and 500,000 without.

Dear Dank,

Actually, braille was required by law:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_010.html

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I use any drive through I need to and never had any problems.


On Feb 5, 9:54 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows.  A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?
>
> Here's what I thought of:
>
> Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
> 1/2 inch.  That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
> pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
> Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
> Keep it shoveled in snow?  Perhaps salted, if necessary?  (This could
> be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue.  But then, I think
> businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)
>
> Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
> bicycle.  That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
> (where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
> a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
> Anybody got any other ideas?
>
> - Frank Krygowski

On Feb 8, 2:28 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:55:05 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I'd wager that the ATM had braile even when there was a walk-up.  The
> >drive-thru ATMs have braile because it's cheaper to make a million of
> >the same than 500,000 with and 500,000 without.
>
> Dear Dank,
>
> Actually, braille was required by law:
>  http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_010.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

Interesting. It appears I stand corrected. I don't know where I
heard the "less expensive than making 2 kinds" thing, but I've been of
that impression for a long time. Thanks for the info, anyway.