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post #106 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
And supposing I'd been raised in a Biblical family such as Floyd Landis's and you had been raised in a non Christian home. So, you ask yourself would we be having the same discussion or would you be trying to convince me the opposite of your line so far?
Put even more bluntly, supposing you'd been raised in North Korea, China or Mongolia. How different would your views be today?
you have this nifty way of saying outragious things and then ignoring the retort when your comments are questioned. what are you talking about? nobody is claiming you don't have the right to be agnostic. or to teach your children to follow your example. however, your are apparently angst-ridden over the idea of parents passing down their values and morals to their children just because you find them different than yours.

and i find the following statement very disengenuous

Quote:
I have no axe to grind against Christianity or Islam except where it's imposed by force, taught exclusively in schools as a doctrine or when it extends beyond the borders of personal belief.
yes you do! you have a problem with people actually believing something to the extent they consider positions contrary to their beliefs as false. THAT'S WHAT RELIGION IS!!! the only people that hold all religions to be equal are NON-RELIGIOUS PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF!
post #107 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
Why force a set of values on someone?
this statement, when applied to raising children, has absolutely no merit in the real world.

correct me if i'm wrong but you would actually have no problem with forcing the following set of values on children:
  • it's wrong to treat animals cruelly
  • it's wrong to pour hazardous materials down the drain
  • it's wrong to cheat on school tests
  • it's wrong to lie to your parents and friends
  • it's wrong to make fun of someone because they're disabled or fat
  • it's wrong to like lance armstrong
  • it's wrong to hate someone just because they have different colored skin
however, you seem to suddenly enact your little rule when it comes to sets of values specific to religion
post #108 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
My view is really quite widespread over here of late. In the U.K. and Europe, religion is having a far harder time of it than in the U.S. or Russia.
I mean, Spain is changing totally, becoming more secular. In the U.K. Christian Church attendance is falling. The Beeb is likewise filled with journalists uch as Ron Liddle who aggressively question religion.
It appears quite narrow from you musings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
Where I differ is I'm not an atheist. I'm an agnostic.
That is your choice. Good for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
I have no axe to grind against Christianity or Islam except where it's imposed by force, taught exclusively in schools as a doctrine or when it extends beyond the borders of personal belief.
The vast majority of America does not impose by force (the Government in no way does) nor-teach exclusively in schools a doctrine. So you are flat wrong there.

Your third caviot makes no sense since relegion is a personal belief system so it really cannot go beyond that. If so please explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
I don't see how come it's so radical to state that all religions should be explained in a classroom over a period of time and then allow rational human beings to make decisions later on. Why force a set of values on someone? Why should everyone born in the Middle East be forcefully called Mohammad (they don't have a choice (see my slogan below)) or girls in Spain be called Maria?
I personally think all religeons should be explained. The problem is there is no good way to do it. Which religions do not get taught. At what age do the religions get caught. At what point in the school year are they taught. Who teaches the religions. As a result nothing about religion gets taught in schools. Not even the 10 comandments that almost all religions have to some extent or another.

Since when is the ME part of America? Maybe you are mistaking what a fundamentalist state is. You praise Spain, then stereo type them. Which is it.

By bashing Christians you are in fact fourcing your own agnostic beliefes on all. And that is exactly what the USA is doing. Instead of celibrating all religions we celibrate none. The vast majority of American religeous people would rather the former than the later. It is the Athiests and Agnostics and non-blievers that are foucing their values on the rest of the US. And that in a way is sponsoring a State Sponsored religion, something our constitution forbids.
post #109 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadiver
It is the Athiests and Agnostics and non-blievers that are foucing their values on the rest of the US. And that in a way is sponsoring a State Sponsored religion, something our constitution forbids.
Yeah, right. The 1% of Americans who are atheists and the 2% who are agnostics are forcing their beliefs on the 82% who identify themselves as Christians. That is nothing but propaganda that is used to fire up the Christian taliban.
post #110 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
Yeah, right. The 1% of Americans who are atheists and the 2% who are agnostics are forcing their beliefs on the 82% who identify themselves as Christians. That is nothing but propaganda that is used to fire up the Christian taliban.
more recent studies have placed the figure of those who identify themselves as Christians at a far lower number. but whatever. i'm more concerned with your "Christian taliban" is just wrong.
post #111 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
Yeah, right. The 1% of Americans who are atheists and the 2% who are agnostics are forcing their beliefs on the 82% who identify themselves as Christians. That is nothing but propaganda that is used to fire up the Christian taliban.
From your figures,

that would be the 3% of non-formulated religeous people forcing their beliefs on 97% of the people that want some celebration.

That is why instead of having a Star of David, Nativity, etc. all in the same area we have nothing. Most Christians and people of Jewish belief do not have a problem. It is this 3% that gets offended.

Or the 3% that are offended with "In God We Trust" or "One Nation Under God" or the 10 commandments. When 97% of the population believes in God and most religeons believe in the 10 commandments in some form or another.
post #112 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadiver
that would be the 3% of non-formulated religeous people forcing their beliefs on 97% of the people that want some celebration.

That is why instead of having a Star of David, Nativity, etc. all in the same area we have nothing. Most Christians and people of Jewish belief do not have a problem. It is this 3% that gets offended.

Or the 3% that are offended with "In God We Trust" or "One Nation Under God" or the 10 commandments. When 97% of the population believes in God and most religeons believe in the 10 commandments in some form or another.
Let me get this straight. A small percentage of the population is preventing you from forcing your religious slogans, symbols, and displays on the whole population but THEY are the ones oppressing YOU??? I rest my case.

Help. Help. This black family won't let me burn a cross on their front lawn. I am being oppressed.
post #113 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Church and State must always be separate.
post #114 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
Let me get this straight. A small percentage of the population is preventing you from forcing your religious slogans, symbols, and displays on the whole population but THEY are the ones oppressing YOU??? I rest my case.

Help. Help. This black family won't let me burn a cross on their front lawn. I am being oppressed.
Which ones of these do you believe should not be taught or adheard to:
You shall not make for yourself an idolHonor your parentsYou shall not murderYou shall not commit adulteryYou shall not stealYou shall not bear false witnessYou shall not covet your neighbour's wifeYou shall not covet your neighbour's house
post #115 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadiver
Which ones of these do you believe should not be taught or adheard to:
You shall not make for yourself an idolHonor your parentsYou shall not murderYou shall not commit adulteryYou shall not stealYou shall not bear false witnessYou shall not covet your neighbour's wifeYou shall not covet your neighbour's house
The ones which break the law of the land - they're the ones which should be taught.

A lot of what you list above concern personal/moral codes.
Ideally those codes should be observed as well.
But the fact is that a lot of what you listed doesn't have any bearing on the law of the land.

If it were the case that, for example,You shall not commit adultery, was a criminal offence, half the bloody country would have broken the law and would be criminalised.
I don't condone adultery by the way - I'm simply making the point that it is neither correct or practical to blur the lines between personal moral responsibility and the laws of the state.
post #116 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadiver
Which ones of these do you believe should not be taught or adheard to:
You shall not make for yourself an idolHonor your parentsYou shall not murderYou shall not commit adulteryYou shall not stealYou shall not bear false witnessYou shall not covet your neighbour's wifeYou shall not covet your neighbour's house
Well, as Lim has said, we have laws for some of that. If you think that religion is necessary to form the laws of the state then what difference is there between you and the Taliban?

As for coveting, the whole of capitalist society is built upon coveting that which you don't have. As Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good."

Why shouldn't you have to swear on a Koran in court? Why shouldn't the currency say, "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is his last prophet?" Why shouldn't the Buddha's four noble truths be displayed in court houses? Why shouldn't mumbo jumbo like intelligent design be taught in science classes?
post #117 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
Let me get this straight. A small percentage of the population is preventing you from forcing your religious slogans, symbols, and displays on the whole population but THEY are the ones oppressing YOU??? I rest my case.

Help. Help. This black family won't let me burn a cross on their front lawn. I am being oppressed.
The constitutions sole inference to the separation of church and state is "the congress shall make no law respecting religion". How that affects municipalities celebrating Christmas is beyond me. Atheists and the ACLU have somehow convinced the courts that that phrase pertains to any and all governmental activities state, county, local etc. So yes, a small number of people wield a tremendous amount of influence all in the name of political correctness. It certainly isn't because of anything the constitution says.
post #118 of 204
Thread Starter 

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

"correct me if i'm wrong but you would actually have no problem with forcing the following set of values on children:
(1)it's wrong to treat animals cruelly
(2)it's wrong to pour hazardous materials down the drain."

Despite getting so uptight about this topic, you often raise some good points and just indirectly raised a very good point indeed: Non Christians and morality. Before I address your points directly, allow me to digress:
If I as a non Christian don't accept I'll be punished in Hell for wrongdoings or rewarded in Heaven for being decent, what's to stop people like me throwing ethics out the window, robbing, stealing and being totally selfish?
Would I make a lousy parent?
Well, as a non Christian I would far sooner rescue an injured animal than anything else. I would never make fun of disabled people. I know what's right and wrong. I know there is a certain manner of behaviour that's just wrong so I strive to develop my more civilized nature.
Besides, I never stated I don't believe God doesn't exist. Many Gnostics, Unorthodox Jews or pagans believe in a higher being and deep down I believe kindness is a positive force and cruelty/war mongering a negative force. Somehow I believe kindness and honesty have their own reward and I was interested to hear Chris Eubank say the same thing (he respects all religions).

"it's wrong to cheat on school tests
it's wrong to lie to your parents and friends."

I have done both. I know it's not strictly right but I figure there are worse things. To be frank, maybe I'd be capable of telling fibs but I would feel guilty if I walked on by when an old lady was being mugged in the street and I did nothing.
So, should the values you outline be forced on children? I guess the ancient Greeks would simply categorise this as morality and ethics. In those days the ethics you outline were "taught" by Sophists or even Stoics. It fell into the realm of morality and ethics but it wasn't forced. Prior to Christianity Greeks honoured their parents and society saw little in the way of crime.

"however, you seem to suddenly enact your little rule when it comes to sets of values specific to religion."

But the woman in the documentary was denying her kids access to material that didn't suit her ideological agenda. It went way beyond teaching her kids about the differences between right and wrong, discussing such matters and pointing to role models.
Her small son told a small fib so she beat him, not allowing the camerman access and closing the door. This was for fibbing over the question of unfinished chores - a minor wrongdoing. Then she had her son apologise to her after he'd stopped crying and (even worse)she then hugged him. Now there's an association for you!

"yes you do! you have a problem with people actually believing something to the extent they consider positions contrary to their beliefs as false. THAT'S WHAT RELIGION IS!!! the only people that hold all religions to be equal are NON-RELIGIOUS PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF!"

How do you know that when the kids become adults, they might think the whole issue through and decide upon another religion? I mean, Muhammad Ali was raised a Baptist and went to Church. Later he decided that for him, Christianity didn't offer the answer to certain issues that bothered him. That is, the fact Jesus was white, Mary was white, the angels were white, Moses was white.
Surely religion is a PERSONAL CHOICE not to be imposed by force? Why not just let kids read the Bible, read the Koran, read about Budha and then choose?

"however, your are apparently angst-ridden over the idea of parents passing down their values and morals to their children just because you find them different than yours."

I think the parents can be Christians, attend Church, offer their kids the opportunity to accompany them to Church e.t.c. They can say to the kids, "I'm a Christian because this is my belief." I'm O.K. with that. However, at some point the kids must choose their own faith. Surely Jesus told his students to go forth and preach not force conformity.







Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapie
you have this nifty way of saying outragious things and then ignoring the retort when your comments are questioned. what are you talking about? nobody is claiming you don't have the right to be agnostic. or to teach your children to follow your example. however, your are apparently angst-ridden over the idea of parents passing down their values and morals to their children just because you find them different than yours.

and i find the following statement very disengenuous

yes you do! you have a problem with people actually believing something to the extent they consider positions contrary to their beliefs as false. THAT'S WHAT RELIGION IS!!! the only people that hold all religions to be equal are NON-RELIGIOUS PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF!
post #119 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
Well, as Lim has said, we have laws for some of that. If you think that religion is necessary to form the laws of the state then what difference is there between you and the Taliban??
I do not think that there is the 100% need for religion to form all of the laws of the state. I do however think many of the laws of the state do have their roots in religion. Morality is the foundation of these laws.

The difference between me and the Taliban is I think you should have the freedom of choice to practice, or not to practice as the case may be, any religion of your choice. I am not offended and respect all religions and if I see as Muslum/Christian/Person of Jewish faith/Wican etc praying, I respect them like any one else. I am not offended by their religious symbols or writings. When ever I see their symbols I equate them to my own beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
As for coveting, the whole of capitalist society is built upon coveting that which you don't have. As Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good."?
I think a capitalistic society is good for the economy and political aspect of a country.

However, I think welfare should be at the extrem lowest level. In the US the Federal Gov. is very inefficient at providing welfare to this lowest level. There is now way the feds can know what is going on in my neighborhood. I personally think we would be much better off if the Feds stayed out of the neighborhood and left that to the local gov. and yes, the churches (regardless of denomination).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
Why shouldn't you have to swear on a Koran in court? Why shouldn't the currency say, "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is his last prophet?" Why shouldn't the Buddha's four noble truths be displayed in court houses? Why shouldn't mumbo jumbo like intelligent design be taught in science classes?
I do not think any court swears on a Bible any more, I accept I could be wrong but it would be few if any. If there are any left, yes I think it is silly for a person who does not believe in the Bible to swear in it. I thought it was silly for the MN? congress person not to swear on the Koran when he took the oath of office. If he did swear on the Bible, it would have been no different to him then swearing on My Pet Goat.

God and Allah are the same. That is all part of their first commandment. Similar to the Christian commandment. If the US was founded by Muslums and not Christians I would not have a problem with In Allah we trust.

I would have not problem with the four noble truths being displayed in court houses. I would not have a problem with any/all of the religious fondations displayed in government buildings. This is similar to Carara's ramblings, let people actually be informed of the truth and let them decide for themselves. Instead we want to oppress all religions doctrine and leave it up to stereo types and ignorance to teach about other religions.

I think we should teach both evolution and intelligent design in schools. I have been waiting a long time for an evolutionist can explain what caused the big bang to happen or the universe to form, I suspect you have no answer to that either.

Have you ever looked at all of the founding documents of the US to see all of the references to a Supreme Being?
post #120 of 204
Thread Starter 

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

"I have been waiting a long time for an evolutionist can explain what caused the big bang to happen or the universe to form, I suspect you have no answer to that either."

The fact we're all spinning round a single star on a rock in virtually limitless space is a real mystery. Throughout history, religion has been used to provide an explanation for the cosmos but, personally speaking, I find no single religion offers a logical perspective. Neither does the Big Bang.
Intelligent design I can buy into but not the concept of Yahweh or Allah setting to work on a Monday and putting the finishing touches to the cosmos by Sunday.
Plus, I'm one of those people who believes there is almost certainly other civilizations on other planets in other star systems - just like in Star Trek. Possibly those other civilizations may also believe in God and have their own religions, representing God as being in their own image (maybe with green skin and pointed ears).
At any rate, there is no way I could disprove Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Even so, you have to accept your decision to be a Christian is a matter of personal faith - a decision. You don't know for sure you are right and neither do I. Therefore, it simply isn't fair to force children to grow up with a set doctrine of beliefs (treated as fact) by controlling information such as that woman was doing.
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