Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?
"correct me if i'm wrong but you would actually have no problem with forcing the following set of values on children:
(1)it's wrong to treat animals cruelly
(2)it's wrong to pour hazardous materials down the drain."
Despite getting so uptight about this topic, you often raise some good points and just indirectly raised a very good point indeed: Non Christians and morality. Before I address your points directly, allow me to digress:
If I as a non Christian don't accept I'll be punished in Hell for wrongdoings or rewarded in Heaven for being decent, what's to stop people like me throwing ethics out the window, robbing, stealing and being totally selfish?
Would I make a lousy parent?
Well, as a non Christian I would far sooner rescue an injured animal than anything else. I would never make fun of disabled people. I know what's right and wrong. I know there is a certain manner of behaviour that's just wrong so I strive to develop my more civilized nature.
Besides, I never stated I don't believe God doesn't exist. Many Gnostics, Unorthodox Jews or pagans believe in a higher being and deep down I believe kindness is a positive force and cruelty/war mongering a negative force. Somehow I believe kindness and honesty have their own reward and I was interested to hear Chris Eubank say the same thing (he respects all religions).
"it's wrong to cheat on school tests
it's wrong to lie to your parents and friends."
I have done both. I know it's not strictly right but I figure there are worse things. To be frank, maybe I'd be capable of telling fibs but I would feel guilty if I walked on by when an old lady was being mugged in the street and I did nothing.
So, should the values you outline be forced on children? I guess the ancient Greeks would simply categorise this as morality and ethics. In those days the ethics you outline were "taught" by Sophists or even Stoics. It fell into the realm of morality and ethics but it wasn't forced. Prior to Christianity Greeks honoured their parents and society saw little in the way of crime.
"however, you seem to suddenly enact your little rule when it comes to sets of values specific to religion."
But the woman in the documentary was denying her kids access to material that didn't suit her ideological agenda. It went way beyond teaching her kids about the differences between right and wrong, discussing such matters and pointing to role models.
Her small son told a small fib so she beat him, not allowing the camerman access and closing the door. This was for fibbing over the question of unfinished chores - a minor wrongdoing. Then she had her son apologise to her after he'd stopped crying and (even worse)she then hugged him. Now there's an association for you!
"yes you do! you have a problem with people actually believing something to the extent they consider positions contrary to their beliefs as false. THAT'S WHAT RELIGION IS!!! the only people that hold all religions to be equal are NON-RELIGIOUS PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF!"
How do you know that when the kids become adults, they might think the whole issue through and decide upon another religion? I mean, Muhammad Ali was raised a Baptist and went to Church. Later he decided that for him, Christianity didn't offer the answer to certain issues that bothered him. That is, the fact Jesus was white, Mary was white, the angels were white, Moses was white.
Surely religion is a PERSONAL CHOICE not to be imposed by force? Why not just let kids read the Bible, read the Koran, read about Budha and then choose?
"however, your are apparently angst-ridden over the idea of parents passing down their values and morals to their children just because you find them different than yours."
I think the parents can be Christians, attend Church, offer their kids the opportunity to accompany them to Church e.t.c. They can say to the kids, "I'm a Christian because this is my belief." I'm O.K. with that. However, at some point the kids must choose their own faith. Surely Jesus told his students to go forth and preach not force conformity.
Originally Posted by cheapie
you have this nifty way of saying outragious things and then ignoring the retort when your comments are questioned.
what are you talking about? nobody is claiming you don't have the right to be agnostic. or to teach your children to follow your example. however, your are apparently angst-ridden over the idea of parents passing down their values and morals to their children just because you find them different than yours.
and i find the following statement very disengenuous
yes you do! you have a problem with people actually believing something to the extent they consider positions contrary to their beliefs as false. THAT'S WHAT RELIGION IS!!! the only people that hold all religions to be equal are NON-RELIGIOUS PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF!