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post #46 of 204
Thread Starter 

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Parents don't own children as chattel (or shouldn't be allowed to). I agree any responsible parent will occasionally have to raise his (or her voice) or even smack. If not, kids would grow up believing there is no authority or consequence of wrongdoing. In fact, I was reading what Chris Eubank had to say about his own children and he struck me as very balanced and responsible.
However. there 's a difference between responsible parenting and brainwashing - intimidating and bullying minors into believing what you wish them to believe.
Could you seriously picture a guy standing in the streets of France with a stall of wooden paddles and preaching that God told him to sell these on the streets? Or in Sweden? He's be arrested instantly.
The image that gives to me is that children in the U.S. would seem to have zero rights or child protection laws in their favour. Their wellbeing depends upon the luck of the draw. If the poor sods happen to wind up with some Bible-tooting fanatic who hears voices from the AllMighty, the State doesn't wish to enforce their rights - such as the right to a school education and free will?
After seeing that documentary I'm not surprised there are all these shootings in the U.S. Where you have fanaticism, you wind up with unstable offspring. These shootings down't happen in Sweden or Norway or Finland. Surely Americans should be asking themselves why their society is becoming so violent, mixed up and why radical religion is getting so out of hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndbiker
Two points. One it's the parents (and perhaps their church), not the state, doing the indoctrinating as it does in Korea. As long as the parents are not breaking any secular laws then they will be left alone. The government is not involved until a crime is committed. Second, critizism of fundamentalist Christians is unlikely to wind you up dead (at the hands of its fundamentalists) as would critizism of another major religion.
post #47 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

my goodness dude. you are really out of touch, aren't you? radical religion? one documentary of a crackpot religous guy doesn't = a country full of crazy religious fanatics.

shootings are not a result of fanaticism. out of the last 10 major shootings, can you point to ANY single one being a result of religious crazies? maybe the DC sniper and he was a muslim. something that has impacted europe far more than the US.

the US is far LESS religious than it used to be. WAY less. but i guess you wouldn't know that because you seem to rely on the occasional documentary or news story about madonna or whatever else to determine your outlook on our country.

i wouldn't argue that our country isn't becoming less violent. but there's no way you can connect zealous Christians with that. in fact, i'd argue that it's the lack of a Christian, or any other moral training that's the root cause.

why don't you take a look at what you've written before you post from now on? it's one thing to have a viewpoint counter to that of others. it's another to just spew craziness and expect people to nod and respect your point of view.

and France isn't exactly the picture of social stability either. have you forgotten the recent images of the city in flames? or the debacle over the children being able to wear religious headgear?

america isn't perfect. but religous fanatics taking over is the least of our worries.

edit: do you have any children?
post #48 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
Parents don't own children as chattel (or shouldn't be allowed to). I agree any responsible parent will occasionally have to raise his (or her voice) or even smack. If not, kids would grow up believing there is no authority or consequence of wrongdoing. In fact, I was reading what Chris Eubank had to say about his own children and he struck me as very balanced and responsible.
However. there 's a difference between responsible parenting and brainwashing - intimidating and bullying minors into believing what you wish them to believe.
Could you seriously picture a guy standing in the streets of France with a stall of wooden paddles and preaching that God told him to sell these on the streets? Or in Sweden? He's be arrested instantly.
The image that gives to me is that children in the U.S. would seem to have zero rights or child protection laws in their favour. Their wellbeing depends upon the luck of the draw. If the poor sods happen to wind up with some Bible-tooting fanatic who hears voices from the AllMighty, the State doesn't wish to enforce their rights - such as the right to a school education and free will?
After seeing that documentary I'm not surprised there are all these shootings in the U.S. Where you have fanaticism, you wind up with unstable offspring. These shootings down't happen in Sweden or Norway or Finland. Surely Americans should be asking themselves why their society is becoming so violent, mixed up and why radical religion is getting so out of hand.
I did not see the documentary so I cannot speak to what you actually saw. It is against the law to abuse children here in the USA and many children have been removed from their homes because of abuse. However, the government will not get involved when it comes to what set of beliefs you wish to raise your children with. It does mandate that each child must be educated and most children in the US are educated in public schools. However, as long as they are attending school they may be home schooled or attend private schools. I guess I would fear a government mandating how my child be raised more than I would the occasional fundamentalist raising their children to believe in strict creationism. Nazi Germany and their indocrination of children come to mind. To demand of the Amish that their children be educated in government schools is much more a violation of our Constitutions guarantee that no law respecting religion be passed than the 10 Commandments being displayed in a court house (would we yank a copy of Hammarabi's Code?). Again, since I didn't see the documentary I can't say for sure but it sounds to me that since spanking is not illegal and it is a right to within the law publically voice your opinion, the group was doing nothing illegal. If anyone fundamentalist Christian, atheist, etc. is caught abusing a child it is abhorant and a crime and should be punished. But raising your child to believe in God and the Bible, Allah and the Koran, or that it is all bunk is none of the governments business so long as you abide by our countries laws.
post #49 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

So ,C. who draws the line and determines what is influential teaching and what is brainwashing? YOU?
Mistakes and crap will happen and when you get the winning formula for the world society please let us in on it.
Right now I am going to a fish fry with lot of alcohol and crazy females.
BTW: SB: No Catfish! Maybe some Carp.
post #50 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Hey, fish tacos is fish tacos...just take whatever's on the menu.
post #51 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

I hope I'm not beating a dead horse here, but had to chime in.

Was that documentary produced by the BBC? I'm heard them accused of harboring a bias against people who might not fit in with their idea of political correctness. I can't speak from experience, as my experience with them is limited to the occasional listening to the shipping forecast. But I can't see how Auntie Beeb could accurately summarize something so complex and varied as America.

I was raised in a Christian home, and was taught that Christianity was the true faith, and that the Bible was the inerrant and infalliable word of God. My parents sent me and my brothers to Christian-oriented schools. The high school we attended can claim Ted Turner and Pat Robertson as alumni. If that's not a study in opposites, I don't know what is. Even though we were Christians, none of us are close-minded nor intolerant toward people of other faiths. We might disagree with their faiths, but Christianity instructs its followers to love their fellow man.

Over the years, I've met people who were homeschooled. Some were educated this way from the time they could first begin reading, while others received various mixes of home schooling and private or public schools. They all seemed intelligent with good heads on their shoulders. All had good social skills and were well prepared for life in the big world. There are several news articles out there about homeschooled children here that show them in a positive light. Many have won local and national spelling bees, and they go on to get high scores on college admission tests.

The guy with the paddle sounds interesting, but not unlawful. Here in the U.S., we have guaranteed freedom of speech. Even the unpopular viewpoint is allowed equal expression, unless you're on an Ivy League college campus <joke>. If I wanted to stand on a street corner handing out tracts while holding a paddle, I would be within my rights. People might think I was a bit looney, but I would not be doing anything illegal. You seemed disturbed that he was allowed to do this, but I was no less disturbed that he could be arrested for expressing his opinions in a European country. I would like to visit Europe. It's the cradle of Western Civilization, and my country is strongly influenced by our European descendants. But this is one of the reasons that I would not want to live there.

There are fringe groups of many varieties over here, some of them seem quite nutty to the rest of us. But their right to live as they see fit is guaranteed by our Constitution.

Carrera, I've read several of your previous posts, and respect your opinions even if I don't agree with them. I don't want to come across disrespecfully here, but I think you have allowed yourself to become a bit paranoid thanks to a documentary that painted with a rather broad brush.

-Bill
post #52 of 204
Thread Starter 

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

"one documentary of a crackpot religous guy doesn't = a country full of crazy religious fanatics."

Hmmmm, I don't think I went so far as to describe the U.S. as a country full of religious fanatics. What I did state was that fundamentalist Christianity was becoming an extremely dominant and worrying force within that country.
Examples: Former football stadiums being converted into giant Christian meeting centres for mass evangelical meetings. Girls wearing rings (encouraged by Bush Junior) in a sign of celibacy. Children at school being subjected to terrifying stage dramas that depict hell and literally being taught they could go to hell and suffer a similar fate. Evolution teachers being forced out of teaching in schools and creationism taking its place. Biblical parenting or women being manipulated into not having abortions by Christian clinics.
"out of the last 10 major shootings, can you point to ANY single one being a result of religious crazies?"
Abolutely, WACO and David Koresh. They also discovered physical child abuse had been taking place within the Branch Davidian ranch.
"the US is far LESS religious than it used to be. WAY less."
When a political leader makes references to God and Jesus during public conventions I'm not so sure. Could you imagine even Regan justifying a military undertaking on the basis of having heard God's voice?
"in fact, i'd argue that it's the lack of a Christian, or any other moral training that's the root cause."
This is where I feel it's possible to successfully challenge this view (that was likewise repeated by the Biblical parenting families). Many parts of America and the U.K. fall well behind Europe in matters of family stability and child poverty. To be fair, I'd guess the U.K. also falls well behind America on family breakdown issues which is why we're infamous for all those rampaging thugs who swill beer in the streets of Spain or Ibiza
I think this is the fault of lack of family structure and parental role models and has little to do with lack of religious teachings. England never had this sort of problem back in the fifties or even in the sixties. Geez, my dad took me to a football match in the days of Gordon Banks and youy wouldn't believe how relaxed it was back then. Nowadays there are swearing, jeering neandethals at large.
Besides, within Europe, Holland has the best record on child welfare and Britain came in bottom due to the higher levels of family breakdown. Yet Holland is a secular country.
"and France isn't exactly the picture of social stability either. have you forgotten the recent images of the city in flames? or the debacle over the children being able to wear religious headgear?"
I agree and I think that maybe Sarkozy will crack down on this. There's a good chance he'll be voted into office and we'll witness a more nationistic France where immigrants must adopt French values.
Bear in mind that if I were really super dooper anti American I'd only be criticizing America in these posts and not other countries. It's not as if I haven't taken a poke at Iran in the past. I just see a problem within the U.S. linked to fundamentalism and decided to raise the theme.





Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapie
my goodness dude. you are really out of touch, aren't you? radical religion? one documentary of a crackpot religous guy doesn't = a country full of crazy religious fanatics.

shootings are not a result of fanaticism. out of the last 10 major shootings, can you point to ANY single one being a result of religious crazies? maybe the DC sniper and he was a muslim. something that has impacted europe far more than the US.

the US is far LESS religious than it used to be. WAY less. but i guess you wouldn't know that because you seem to rely on the occasional documentary or news story about madonna or whatever else to determine your outlook on our country.

i wouldn't argue that our country isn't becoming less violent. but there's no way you can connect zealous Christians with that. in fact, i'd argue that it's the lack of a Christian, or any other moral training that's the root cause.

why don't you take a look at what you've written before you post from now on? it's one thing to have a viewpoint counter to that of others. it's another to just spew craziness and expect people to nod and respect your point of view.

and France isn't exactly the picture of social stability either. have you forgotten the recent images of the city in flames? or the debacle over the children being able to wear religious headgear?

america isn't perfect. but religous fanatics taking over is the least of our worries.

edit: do you have any children?
post #53 of 204
Thread Starter 

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

"You seemed disturbed that he was allowed to do this, but I was no less disturbed that he could be arrested for expressing his opinions in a European country."

He was promoting extreme corporal punishment of minors by parents. As I said before, German psychologists studied all of this many many years ago and concluded this kind of corporal punishment was harmful. To put it bluntly, there were cases of adults going on to develop confused sexual (masochistic tendencies) as a consequence of what they called the English syndrome. It's the old story about the ex public schoolboy who goes on to visit a Dominatrix or what have you in later life.
The reason C.P. was banned in this country many years ago was probably due to proper studies and evidence produced by specialists and experts. So, I think the guy in the documentary should have been arrested and charged, not for smacking, but for going way beyond that limit. I'd also invite anyone to check out Billy Connoly's testimony of his own schooling and how he later went on to seek therapy in the U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamK1974
I hope I'm not beating a dead horse here, but had to chime in.

Was that documentary produced by the BBC? I'm heard them accused of harboring a bias against people who might not fit in with their idea of political correctness. I can't speak from experience, as my experience with them is limited to the occasional listening to the shipping forecast. But I can't see how Auntie Beeb could accurately summarize something so complex and varied as America.

I was raised in a Christian home, and was taught that Christianity was the true faith, and that the Bible was the inerrant and infalliable word of God. My parents sent me and my brothers to Christian-oriented schools. The high school we attended can claim Ted Turner and Pat Robertson as alumni. If that's not a study in opposites, I don't know what is. Even though we were Christians, none of us are close-minded nor intolerant toward people of other faiths. We might disagree with their faiths, but Christianity instructs its followers to love their fellow man.

Over the years, I've met people who were homeschooled. Some were educated this way from the time they could first begin reading, while others received various mixes of home schooling and private or public schools. They all seemed intelligent with good heads on their shoulders. All had good social skills and were well prepared for life in the big world. There are several news articles out there about homeschooled children here that show them in a positive light. Many have won local and national spelling bees, and they go on to get high scores on college admission tests.

The guy with the paddle sounds interesting, but not unlawful. Here in the U.S., we have guaranteed freedom of speech. Even the unpopular viewpoint is allowed equal expression, unless you're on an Ivy League college campus <joke>. If I wanted to stand on a street corner handing out tracts while holding a paddle, I would be within my rights. People might think I was a bit looney, but I would not be doing anything illegal. You seemed disturbed that he was allowed to do this, but I was no less disturbed that he could be arrested for expressing his opinions in a European country. I would like to visit Europe. It's the cradle of Western Civilization, and my country is strongly influenced by our European descendants. But this is one of the reasons that I would not want to live there.

There are fringe groups of many varieties over here, some of them seem quite nutty to the rest of us. But their right to live as they see fit is guaranteed by our Constitution.

Carrera, I've read several of your previous posts, and respect your opinions even if I don't agree with them. I don't want to come across disrespecfully here, but I think you have allowed yourself to become a bit paranoid thanks to a documentary that painted with a rather broad brush.

-Bill
post #54 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
"You seemed disturbed that he was allowed to do this, but I was no less disturbed that he could be arrested for expressing his opinions in a European country."

He was promoting extreme corporal punishment of minors by parents. As I said before, German psychologists studied all of this many many years ago and concluded this kind of corporal punishment was harmful. To put it bluntly, there were cases of adults going on to develop confused sexual (masochistic tendencies) as a consequence of what they called the English syndrome. It's the old story about the ex public schoolboy who goes on to visit a Dominatrix or what have you in later life.
The reason C.P. was banned in this country many years ago was probably due to proper studies and evidence produced by specialists and experts. So, I think the guy in the documentary should have been arrested and charged, not for smacking, but for going way beyond that limit. I'd also invite anyone to check out Billy Connoly's testimony of his own schooling and how he later went on to seek therapy in the U.S.
I just don't see why you find fundamentalist Christianity to be such a "dominant and worrying force" within the USA. I don't see it that way at all, and that's not because I happen to be a Christian. Here in the US, about 65% of the population claims to attend regular religious services. That includes all religions present within the country. So, it would stand to reason that the number of Christians could be quite lower. That just doesn't translate to the fundies having an iron grip on the tiller for the ship of state. Our President sometimes says things that are easy to skew and quote out of context.

Not to put words in your mouth, but I think a great deal of your concern comes from the fact that Americans tend to be more outspoken about their faith. This is especially true here in the South. My friend who lives across the pond in Essex told me that faith is considered a much more private matter over there. Billy Graham might could come over there and fill Wembley Stadium and encourage people to turn to Christ, and that would be ok. But for an individual like myself to start asking strangers about God might be seen as pushy and nosy. Some would be outraged and deeply offended.

To address some other points you made:
Stadium religious revivals- These have been taking place for many years across the country. I attended one at Neyland Stadium over 10 years ago. Once it was over, Neyland Stadium reverted to being the home field of the UT Vols football team. I'm not aware of any such structure being repurposed for religious use. Billy Graham could hold a rally in Yankee Stadium, but once he was done, it would return to its use as a baseball field. The same goes for all the other football stadiums, concert halls, and hockey rinks across the country.

Rings promoting chastity- this has been going on since my mother was growing up, and might have gone on long before that. It's hardly new. The Prez has mentioned it in a positive way, but so what? Like anything else, those who make the promise don't always follow through, but what's wrong with trying.

Evolution and Creationism in public schools- a school system in Kansas and another in Georgia tried to add items to textbooks that would state that Creationism and Evolution are to be taught as theories. Neither would be taught as superior to the other. Two school systems out of no telling how many hardly constitutes a religious revolution. For better or worse, it's unlikely that Evolution could be eliminated from public school textbooks. Attempts to do so would be met with hosility from special interest groups such as the ACLU.

Terrifying stage dramas based on Hell- this is another homeschool thing, isn't it? Some churches will stage dramatic presentations around Halloween, which is their right under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. But no one's required to view them. If you don't agree with that sort of thing, don't go. I've never been to one as I'd rather spend the time doing other things, like working on my bikes and cars. A popular humorist duo in this region has a skit that sends up churches that put on elaborate dramas that are used to point out how bad everyone else is.

Corporal punishment- this is not nearly as popular as it once was. Few public schools still allow it, and the same goes for private schools. My memory tells me that I was rarely spanked, if ever, and not with any spanking instrument. I've heard of the so-called English Syndrome, and can't help but think of that line in Another Brick in The Wall about fat and psychopathic wives. I don't have any basis for this, but it would stand to reason that far more people who were spanked severely grew up to be well-balanced individuals without the need for the services of a dominaitrix. If that were not the case, they would probably have a listing in the Yellow Pages <joke>.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can't paint fundamentalist Christians with the same broad brush, the same as all Americans aren't the same.

Now, don't take this the wrong way, but I have to ask. Why does this bother you so much? You live across the pond, and if you were to ever visit us, it's not likely that you would catch fundamentalism even if someone sneezed on you. Some parts of the country are more religious than others, so you might not hear anything about it depending on where you were.

It's not likely that we're going to sway each other's opinion, but it can be fun to try. I'd like to think that we could be having this discussion down at your local over a nice pint of ale, but only you could tell me yay or nay on that.

Cheers,
-Bill
post #55 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamK1974
That just doesn't translate to the fundies having an iron grip on the tiller for the ship of state. Our President sometimes says things that are easy to skew and quote out of context.
Horse****.

You need to get a better grip on reality than you've got Bill if you think it's just GWB being quoted wrong. From his utterances on many occasions there is no doubt that he is a fundie nut case - or pretends to be - for the so-called Christian base. The fact that you're trying to spin it as something it isn't shows how far you hypocritical "Christians" will stoop to further your cause.

Is baldface lying a good Christian trait?
LL
post #56 of 204
Thread Starter 

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Bill's post was polite and constructive although I disagree over various issues. I do agree the discussion is interesting, if nothing else. I'll address Bill's points later on when I have more time.
For now, suffice it to say I don't just gripe about fundamentalist Christianity but radical Islam also gets up my nose too. Likewise Biblical Judaism was pretty awful - women being stoned for extra marital affairs.
Also, it's not balanced Christians I take issue with - only the fundamentalist nutters who feel they have a monopoly on truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm
Horse****.

You need to get a better grip on reality than you've got Bill if you think it's just GWB being quoted wrong. From his utterances on many occasions there is no doubt that he is a fundie nut case - or pretends to be - for the so-called Christian base. The fact that you're trying to spin it as something it isn't shows how far you hypocritical "Christians" will stoop to further your cause.

Is baldface lying a good Christian trait?
post #57 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm
Horse****.

You need to get a better grip on reality than you've got Bill if you think it's just GWB being quoted wrong. From his utterances on many occasions there is no doubt that he is a fundie nut case - or pretends to be - for the so-called Christian base. The fact that you're trying to spin it as something it isn't shows how far you hypocritical "Christians" will stoop to further your cause.

Is baldface lying a good Christian trait?
I consider myself to be neither a liar nor a saint.

Perhaps I would have best left the issue of the President and some of the things he has said alone, as I'm not the most well-informed. I read some newspapers and internet news sites, but rarely watch the national news on television. I've become so used to people who seem to have the same beliefs I do getting kicked around by the news media simply for seeming to take a stand on matters of faith that I just assume the worst.

On the subject of the President: I think he's overall a good man and a capable leader. But that doesn't mean that I agree with everything he has said and done. The same goes for the actions of some of my fellow Christians.

Don't get the idea that I'm some kind of lockstep fundamentalist Bush-bot. I am much more of an independent conservative Christian. President Bush is not perfect, but nor am I. He is our leader, and I believe that I need to stand behind him with my support, but be willing to temper that with constructive criticism.

Thank you,
-Bill
post #58 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
Bill's post was polite and constructive although I disagree over various issues. I do agree the discussion is interesting, if nothing else. I'll address Bill's points later on when I have more time.
For now, suffice it to say I don't just gripe about fundamentalist Christianity but radical Islam also gets up my nose too. Likewise Biblical Judaism was pretty awful - women being stoned for extra marital affairs.
Also, it's not balanced Christians I take issue with - only the fundamentalist nutters who feel they have a monopoly on truth.
I was afraid that I might have been a bit smart-mouthed on a couple of things. It's a bad tendency that sometimes comes out in situations like this. I really enjoy reading your other posts, because you come across very well-spoken and rational, even if I might not agree with you.

As far as religions go, we have to remember that they are human constructs based upon tenents which were supplied by a diety. Sometimes the human element causes problems. I believe strongly in my faith, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to act ugly towards someone else. That produces nothing but resentment.

Looking forward to hearing from you again.

-Bill
post #59 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
Bill's post was polite and constructive although I disagree over various issues.
Passing out BS "politely" is still BS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamK1974
On the subject of the President: I think he's overall a good man and a capable leader. But that doesn't mean that I agree with everything he has said and done.
Perhaps then you can explain exactly what is it that you disagree with GWB and the former GOP rubber-stamp Congress on?

Do you agree with them on illegal warrantless wiretapping, lying about Iraq to start a war, suspending Habeas Corpus, Gitmo (torture), no-bid contracts in Iraq, Blackwater, enormous corporate welfare giveaways to Big Oil and others, firing of US Attorneys for political reasons, refusing to act upon the people's will as shown in the last election, etc?

The full list is damning and much longer, but pleading ignorance because you're "not the most well-informed", to be honest, sounds like a convenient excuse.

What is it that you think Bu$hCo deserves your support on, and do those issues outweigh his obvious and indisputably impeachable offenses? If you don't know, why haven't you better informed yourself of the facts? Is it because you're afraid to face and properly condemn that which you may have (knowingly or unknowingly) voted for?
post #60 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

waco texas? WACO TEXAS??? that's your example? seriously? an event that happened 14 years ago is your best example of why you believe religious fanaticism leading to unstable offspring is resulting in the many shootings we've had? once again you are showing your absolute ignorance our country and culture.

please show me where a football stadium has been converted into Christian meeting centers? If you're talking about certain evangelists using them during a crusade or whatever, that's been happening for decades.

evolution teachers being forced out? got link?

and how horrible! people actually believe the Bible is to be taken literally? gasp!

while i appreciate the fact that you don't seem overtly trying to mock us, you should really try and think through what you're saying.

also realize that, while i'm sure you consider yourself to be tolerant and open-minded, you seem to have a problem with anyone actually carrying out their faith. i'll bet if asked you wouldn't have a problem with someone being a Christian. but you openly mock them here for actually believing the Bible and following out their faith. you have repeatedly communicated your angst over people considering the Bible to be taken literally.

hey...i'm not offended if you don't believe the same thing i do. but don't pretend to be more evolved and "with it" and then exhibit the same closed-minded behavior you seem to hate so much in others!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
"one documentary of a crackpot religous guy doesn't = a country full of crazy religious fanatics."

Hmmmm, I don't think I went so far as to describe the U.S. as a country full of religious fanatics. What I did state was that fundamentalist Christianity was becoming an extremely dominant and worrying force within that country.
Examples: Former football stadiums being converted into giant Christian meeting centres for mass evangelical meetings. Girls wearing rings (encouraged by Bush Junior) in a sign of celibacy. Children at school being subjected to terrifying stage dramas that depict hell and literally being taught they could go to hell and suffer a similar fate. Evolution teachers being forced out of teaching in schools and creationism taking its place. Biblical parenting or women being manipulated into not having abortions by Christian clinics.
"out of the last 10 major shootings, can you point to ANY single one being a result of religious crazies?"
Abolutely, WACO and David Koresh. They also discovered physical child abuse had been taking place within the Branch Davidian ranch.
"the US is far LESS religious than it used to be. WAY less."
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