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post #61 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamK1974
He is our leader, and I believe that I need to stand behind him with my support, but be willing to temper that with constructive criticism.
What a load of cro-magnon, jingoistic horse ****. The germans believed that a few decades ago. It didn't turn out well for them...
post #62 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
What a load of cro-magnon, jingoistic horse ****. The germans believed that a few decades ago. It didn't turn out well for them...
It was just delayed for a few decades...
LL
post #63 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
What a load of cro-magnon, jingoistic horse ****. The germans believed that a few decades ago. It didn't turn out well for them...
Would you say the same thing if someone else had been in charge? Maybe not, but I can't help thinking that you'd probably tell me that I wasn't qualified to offer such criticism, so keep my mouth shut and let "the anointed" do their jobs and tell me how to run my life.

For what it's worth, I felt the same way about President Clinton. He wasn't my candidate of choice, but since he won his elections both times, I went on with my life. For my trouble, I was told that I was poor, uneducated, and easily led.

The problem with Germany was that no one was willing to criticize Adolf Hitler. It would not have taken much to dispose of him, especially early on.

As far as my own feelings about President Bush go, I think he handled his first term better than the second term. He put some responsibility into the hands of some people that started to believe their own press.

I got into this post because Carerra expressed an opinion which I'd never heard before and found interesting. This post and his others were reasoned and well-written. It's too bad the two of you (Wurm and Bro Deal) can't do the same thing. Instead, you come off like a couple of embittered lefties with chips on your shoulders and axes to grind. After all, you can't understand how your superior "super-candidates" lost out in both elections to someone who's so stupid and incompetent.
post #64 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Carrera, Let's say you are playing football with your child in your back yard and the child gets his leg broken.
You take him to the doctor and have it attended to butthe next day a social worker shows up at your door with a cop and places your child into protective custody because he is being exposed to a violent sport ,getting him injured and that could lead to aggressive tendencies.
Parents should be allowed to raise their children and they will screw up. We do not need more government control and the world is not perfect and never will be.
post #65 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamK1974
As far as my own feelings about President Bush go, I think he handled his first term better than the second term. He put some responsibility into the hands of some people that started to believe their own press.
So it's his underlings that are mainly to blame? I've asked you more specific questions as to what your alleged disagreement with Bu$hCo is, but you offer up only vague platitudes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamK1974
...This post and his others were reasoned and well-written. It's too bad the two of you (Wurm and Bro Deal) can't do the same thing. Instead, you come off like a couple of embittered lefties with chips on your shoulders and axes to grind. After all, you can't understand how your superior "super-candidates" lost out in both elections to someone who's so stupid and incompetent.
I understand quite well how Gore and Kerry "lost" their elections - it's called election fraud in Fla. '00 with a right-wing dominated Supreme Court usurping a state's legal right to a full recount, and Ohio '04, among other places. No "axes to grind" here except for justice and the rule of law.

Now why is it that you're not interested in the same thing?
post #66 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal
What a load of cro-magnon, jingoistic horse ****. The germans believed that a few decades ago. It didn't turn out well for them...
I do believe that if you had criticised Hitler the way that many have criticised GWB they ended up dead or worse yet their families. I have not heard anyone who has been eliminated by our President except perhaps for terrorists. The President who seemed to have the most confidants "mysteriously" end up dead was Bill Clinton. I'd have to look them up but I believe there were about 8 of them. If I were of the "Wacko" ilk I would be blaming them on Clinton which admittedly some "wackos" did. I brought that up only because people seem to want to compare the current administration with the Nazis. Our federal government was given limited powers by our constitution. Since its inception we have given the federal government far more influence on our lives than our founders originally intended. One power our federal government was to have was to protect us from foreign invaders. We can legitimately argue whether Bush's invasion of Iraq was necessary to protect us from invaders, however, it is a much more appropriate use of federal power than to tell us how to raise our children, provide for individual welfare or even provide health care. All those things per our constitution should be a province of the states. Each time we relinquish responsibility for our individual lives and actions we give others power over us. I find it interesting that those who would most like to have our government regulate our guns are the ones who are most likely to be upset about the wiretapping of suspected terrorists. You may now begin calling me names.
post #67 of 204
Thread Starter 

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

I've been asked by some if I have kids myself. The fact is I don't. I've looked after friend's kids in the past while they had a night out and I've also taught classes of kids.
Obviously, I understand there are times when you have to yell at kids and (more rarely) smack as a last resort. But that would be in a case of, say, discovering your small son had pushed a schoolgirl to the floor and threw her bag into the river, or something like that. You know, something serious.
Having said that I still agree with the boxer Chris Eubank. In his book he shared that in Jamaica his dad would hit him with a strap but the Eubanks themselves never smacked. Instead, Chris only needed to raise his voice and that way he stamped his authority. He'd have the kids write lines or stay in their rooms if they misbehaved seriously.
This is a far cry from wacking children with a huge paddle as Biblical parenting often endorses (and for the most petty misdeeds).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhuskey
Carrera, Let's say you are playing football with your child in your back yard and the child gets his leg broken.
You take him to the doctor and have it attended to butthe next day a social worker shows up at your door with a cop and places your child into protective custody because he is being exposed to a violent sport ,getting him injured and that could lead to aggressive tendencies.
Parents should be allowed to raise their children and they will screw up. We do not need more government control and the world is not perfect and never will be.
post #68 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

My point is that each case musts be individual. You cannot pass a law that says whacked out fanatics will be dealt with severly.
It is a nice concept to think about but there again who make that call as to who crosses the line.
Definition of a nympho maniac, someone that wants sex one more time than you do.
post #69 of 204
Thread Starter 

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

I dish it out and, therfore, I'm obliged to take some criticism as well. I definitely wouldn't be posting this sort of topic on the cycling section of the site but I figure, hell, this is the Soapbox is it not? A rant is a rant and, thus, I ranted and enjoy hearing others rant back. Otherwise life is boring.
The title was slightly tongue in cheek - a deliberate attempt at black humour. Of course I understand the U.S. isn't really a kind of backwater plain with Hill-Billy Bible bashers. I'm aware New York and Washington are as sophisticated as Paris or Moscow. Yes, there is a problem with fundamentalism in the U.S. but, sure, this is mainly around the Bible belt are -where Bush's vote was strongest. Yes, my post was serious in as much as I do disagree with the fundamentalist movement and Biblical upbringings but bear in mind we Brits have a kind of sense of humour which is why the title was so sensational. If you've ever seen Jonathon Ross on T.V. over here you'd be aware of that. He's interviewed American women before (even Madonna) and they couldn't figure out the humour.



Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamK1974
I was afraid that I might have been a bit smart-mouthed on a couple of things. It's a bad tendency that sometimes comes out in situations like this. I really enjoy reading your other posts, because you come across very well-spoken and rational, even if I might not agree with you.

As far as religions go, we have to remember that they are human constructs based upon tenents which were supplied by a diety. Sometimes the human element causes problems. I believe strongly in my faith, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to act ugly towards someone else. That produces nothing but resentment.

Looking forward to hearing from you again.

-Bill
post #70 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
"one documentary of a crackpot religous guy doesn't = a country full of crazy religious fanatics."

Hmmmm, I don't think I went so far as to describe the U.S. as a country full of religious fanatics. What I did state was that fundamentalist Christianity was becoming an extremely dominant and worrying force within that country.
Examples: Former football stadiums being converted into giant Christian meeting centres for mass evangelical meetings.
Please define 'fundamentalist Christianity'. Also, please explain why you are opposed to evangelical meetings.
post #71 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Because Madonna is not an Evangelist.
post #72 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

I have seen a case where corporal punishment was taken way too far. I was somewhere between 10 and 12 years old, and it showed up on a segment of "60 Minutes" or a similar journalism show.

The people involved were pretty bad-looking southerners. They had bad teeth and lived in a dilapidated home, which might have been a trailer. They had the type of southern accent that sounds like it came from the set of "Deliverance." I can't remember how many children they had, but it was at least 5. The oldest child might have been 11, and the youngest was 3 or 4. Don't hold me to that as it has been a long time.

The problem was that they spanked the children for the least little infractions. We're talking about stuff that a raised voice might have been overkill. When asked why, the mother stated in her white-trash voice that it said in the Bible that they were to avoid sparing the rod so as not spoil the child, and maybe that in doing so they would save their children from a life of sin.

The situation was so bad that the older children were expressing resentful thoughts, and the youngest were afraid of the parents. If one of the parents called them, they would start crying. It was like seeing a mistreated dog cow at the sound of its cruel master's voice. If they didn't stop crying, they'd get a swat across the bum.

I can't remember the resolution to the story, but it seems like the "60 Minutes" staff arranged for them to attend family counseling so as to find better ways to maintain discipline and repair the damage that had been done to the family relationships. It was a sad tale that I hope was resolved favorably.

The paddle man that we keep mentioning made sure his paddles said "Not In Anger." I doubt he would endorse the type of treatment.

The German-style ban on CP is the sort of government meddling that for the most part wouldn't be tolerated over here. Just because I would disagree with a ban doesn't mean that I'm sitting over here waiting for the chance to beat the holy hell out of my kids. I would rather make the decision about appropriate discipline myself rather than having some government bureaucrat tell me what I could and could not do.

-Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
I've been asked by some if I have kids myself. The fact is I don't. I've looked after friend's kids in the past while they had a night out and I've also taught classes of kids.
Obviously, I understand there are times when you have to yell at kids and (more rarely) smack as a last resort. But that would be in a case of, say, discovering your small son had pushed a schoolgirl to the floor and threw her bag into the river, or something like that. You know, something serious.
Having said that I still agree with the boxer Chris Eubank. In his book he shared that in Jamaica his dad would hit him with a strap but the Eubanks themselves never smacked. Instead, Chris only needed to raise his voice and that way he stamped his authority. He'd have the kids write lines or stay in their rooms if they misbehaved seriously.
This is a far cry from wacking children with a huge paddle as Biblical parenting often endorses (and for the most petty misdeeds).
post #73 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamK1974
It was like seeing a mistreated dog cow at the sound of its cruel master's voice.
what's a dog cow?



post #74 of 204
Thread Starter 

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

"Not to put words in your mouth, but I think a great deal of your concern comes from the fact that Americans tend to be more outspoken about their faith."

I haven't encountered anythingf like that on this particular website. Even so, other websites have been more worrying. On one of them, we're discussing topics such as the sub 4 minute mile and someone will post an "Amen!" somewhere. I mean, God is always brought into the postings or someone will be going to pray for such and such a situation. Even my girlfriend in Carolina once let slip she would pray for me. I asked her why? I imagine I'm the same as Lance Armstrong in as much as I will do what I have to do to solve a particular problem as opposed to praying e.t.c. That's just the way I am.

"But for an individual like myself to start asking strangers about God might be seen as pushy and nosy. Some would be outraged and deeply offended."

As I say, I've never encountered any real problem on this site. Wolfix is religious, Limerickman is religious and I think Colorado Rider. None of these have posted "Amens" or "Praise bes!" during discussions and so I'm aware they simply have their own set of private beliefs that I certainly don't set out to ridicule. Inject a bit of sense of humour, yes, but only with respect to snake-handling, paddle-bearing radicals.
Besides, unlike Lance I'm not an atheist. I believe God may exist but I disbelieve religious conceptions of God are really so accurate whether that be Judaism, Islam or Christianity. I also dislike the idea of religion and politics merging in any way.

"I'm not aware of any such structure being repurposed for religious use."

This was on ABC news.

"Like anything else, those who make the promise don't always follow through, but what's wrong with trying."

Hmmm, but why do virtually all religions (excluding the Raelian movement) seem to think of sex per se as being "ify" or suspect? Science says otherwise. We know that males are biologically programmed to stray and, if you like, distribute genetic traits while women tend to be more stable and family minded (likewise selecting partners on basis of social dominance in society). The Raelian movement was the only belief system that seemed to me to be free and not hung up.

"For better or worse, it's unlikely that Evolution could be eliminated from public school textbooks. Attempts to do so would be met with hosility from special interest groups such as the ACLU."

Intelligent design seems a plausible theory. However, by "intelligent design" I don't mean Old Testament descriptions of a 7 day creation of the world. Besides, I agree with evolution but not specifically with the conversion of chimps into humans.

"Terrifying stage dramas based on Hell- this is another homeschool thing, isn't it?"

I think this was featured on a documentary featuring Ron Liddle, a journalist over here who frequently goes over to the U.S. (or to fundamentalist or Jewish schools in the U.K.) and then has a real go at creationism and religion in general. His most common line is to look a pastor or cleric straight in the eye and say, " You're an educated, intelligent man. Do you seriously believe the world was created in seven days?" One headmaster in the U.K. who was running a Biblical school simply shrugged, went a little red and replied, "Yes!"
I think it was Liddle who sat through an American stage production on hellfire and brimstone. Likewise, the American pastor seemed to have no idea how ridiculous Liddle was making him out to seem. The kids were sitting down terrified and pale while Liddle asked the pastor, "Is it not dangerous to terrify these children and teach about hell?" The pastor replied, "No, if it means I can save their souls!"

"I don't have any basis for this, but it would stand to reason that far more people who were spanked severely grew up to be well-balanced individuals without the need for the services of a dominaitrix."

It depends on how the individual copes with aggression and humiliation. In the case of Lance Armstrong who was paddled as a youngster, the book Tour De Force makes the claim it caused Armstrong to become aggressive on the bike. Psychoanalysing Armstong, the writer notes how Lance rejected anyone who tried to control his actions, including his mother's subsequent partners whom she dumped if Lance didn't like them or take to them. Many coaches were likewise dumped.

"You live across the pond, and if you were to ever visit us, it's not likely that you would catch fundamentalism even if someone sneezed on you."

My mother and brother went to Florida and enjoyed it. My dad has been to New York State. My feeling is I'd enjoy New York. Maybe California as well. I wouldn't fancy Texas.




Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamK1974
I just don't see why you find fundamentalist Christianity to be such a "dominant and worrying force" within the USA. I don't see it that way at all, and that's not because I happen to be a Christian. Here in the US, about 65% of the population claims to attend regular religious services. That includes all religions present within the country. So, it would stand to reason that the number of Christians could be quite lower. That just doesn't translate to the fundies having an iron grip on the tiller for the ship of state. Our President sometimes says things that are easy to skew and quote out of context.

Not to put words in your mouth, but I think a great deal of your concern comes from the fact that Americans tend to be more outspoken about their faith. This is especially true here in the South. My friend who lives across the pond in Essex told me that faith is considered a much more private matter over there. Billy Graham might could come over there and fill Wembley Stadium and encourage people to turn to Christ, and that would be ok. But for an individual like myself to start asking strangers about God might be seen as pushy and nosy. Some would be outraged and deeply offended.

To address some other points you made:
Stadium religious revivals- These have been taking place for many years across the country. I attended one at Neyland Stadium over 10 years ago. Once it was over, Neyland Stadium reverted to being the home field of the UT Vols football team. I'm not aware of any such structure being repurposed for religious use. Billy Graham could hold a rally in Yankee Stadium, but once he was done, it would return to its use as a baseball field. The same goes for all the other football stadiums, concert halls, and hockey rinks across the country.

Rings promoting chastity- this has been going on since my mother was growing up, and might have gone on long before that. It's hardly new. The Prez has mentioned it in a positive way, but so what? Like anything else, those who make the promise don't always follow through, but what's wrong with trying.

Evolution and Creationism in public schools- a school system in Kansas and another in Georgia tried to add items to textbooks that would state that Creationism and Evolution are to be taught as theories. Neither would be taught as superior to the other. Two school systems out of no telling how many hardly constitutes a religious revolution. For better or worse, it's unlikely that Evolution could be eliminated from public school textbooks. Attempts to do so would be met with hosility from special interest groups such as the ACLU.

Terrifying stage dramas based on Hell- this is another homeschool thing, isn't it? Some churches will stage dramatic presentations around Halloween, which is their right under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. But no one's required to view them. If you don't agree with that sort of thing, don't go. I've never been to one as I'd rather spend the time doing other things, like working on my bikes and cars. A popular humorist duo in this region has a skit that sends up churches that put on elaborate dramas that are used to point out how bad everyone else is.

Corporal punishment- this is not nearly as popular as it once was. Few public schools still allow it, and the same goes for private schools. My memory tells me that I was rarely spanked, if ever, and not with any spanking instrument. I've heard of the so-called English Syndrome, and can't help but think of that line in Another Brick in The Wall about fat and psychopathic wives. I don't have any basis for this, but it would stand to reason that far more people who were spanked severely grew up to be well-balanced individuals without the need for the services of a dominaitrix. If that were not the case, they would probably have a listing in the Yellow Pages <joke>.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can't paint fundamentalist Christians with the same broad brush, the same as all Americans aren't the same.

Now, don't take this the wrong way, but I have to ask. Why does this bother you so much? You live across the pond, and if you were to ever visit us, it's not likely that you would catch fundamentalism even if someone sneezed on you. Some parts of the country are more religious than others, so you might not hear anything about it depending on where you were.

It's not likely that we're going to sway each other's opinion, but it can be fun to try. I'd like to think that we could be having this discussion down at your local over a nice pint of ale, but only you could tell me yay or nay on that.

Cheers,
-Bill
post #75 of 204

Re: Is America already a fundamentalist State?

I've not seen Jonathon Ross over here, but would probably like him. At one point, we could sometimes see "So Graham Norton," but I didn't like it that much. I enjoy stuff like Monty Python, some of the so-called Brit-coms like "Are You Being Served?," and the more recent show "Little Britain." They're all kind of lowbrow, but the English seem to do that so well. Even the "high-minded" William Shakespeare had lowbrow elements to his plays. The tradition of cross-dressing in British humor is also funny to me. That doesn't always play well over here, so it's not common. That could be why I find it so funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrera
I dish it out and, therfore, I'm obliged to take some criticism as well. I definitely wouldn't be posting this sort of topic on the cycling section of the site but I figure, hell, this is the Soapbox is it not? A rant is a rant and, thus, I ranted and enjoy hearing others rant back. Otherwise life is boring.
The title was slightly tongue in cheek - a deliberate attempt at black humour. Of course I understand the U.S. isn't really a kind of backwater plain with Hill-Billy Bible bashers. I'm aware New York and Washington are as sophisticated as Paris or Moscow. Yes, there is a problem with fundamentalism in the U.S. but, sure, this is mainly around the Bible belt are -where Bush's vote was strongest. Yes, my post was serious in as much as I do disagree with the fundamentalist movement and Biblical upbringings but bear in mind we Brits have a kind of sense of humour which is why the title was so sensational. If you've ever seen Jonathon Ross on T.V. over here you'd be aware of that. He's interviewed American women before (even Madonna) and they couldn't figure out the humour.
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