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Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
These days I try to avoid heated exchanges with other road users, but judging by an incident I witnessed last night, some riders are always up for it. Even when they're completely in the wrong.

I was riding in the bike lane, approaching red traffic lights. There were a couple of cars stopped at the lights, with the one in the adjacent lane indicating for a left turn. There was another rider a few lengths ahead of me.

As the other rider was almost level with the car indicating a turn, the lights changed to green and the car started to move to make it's turn. The bike rider, clearly intending to go straight ahead, continued his pace unchanged--swerving with the car as it cornered, shouting at the driver and bashing repeatedly on the car.

Q. Was he justified in his rage and aggression?

Let's go to the road rules, specifically Rule 141:

Quote:
(1) A driver (except the rider of a bicycle) must not overtake a vehicle to the left of the vehicle...
So far, so good: cyclists are allowed to pass on the inside. However:

Quote:
(2) The rider of a bicycle must not ride past, or overtake, to the left of a vehicle that is turning left and is giving a left change of direction signal.
A. No.

So the rider couldn't have been more wrong and his ignorance of the road rules makes his self-righteous pounding on the innocent driver's car somewhat pathetic.

I was well aware of the rule that prohibits overtaking to the left of another vehicle turning left, but I'll admit that I had to come away and check that there were no subtleties in the rules that give priority to traffic in a bike lane. And under rules 153 and 158 the existence of a bike lane bestows no special rights in this situation.

Regardless of the legalities, I'd have thought the rational action would be to avoid trouble to begin with. Indeed, driving/riding in a way that avoids collisions is a key concept underlying the road rules. But this rider totally ignored that, preferring to ride in a manner that guaranteed a collision.

Let me be clear here, this was not an emergency situation: the driver hadn't suddenly and unexpectedly turned in front of the bike. On the contrary, the car was stationary and indicating a turn well before we arrived. There was time and space for the rider to slow or stop to avoid the car but he chose to continue, seemingly with the intent of escalating a confrontation. (Come to think of it, did he actually speed-up? Hmm, not sure about that...)

Anyway, it looked a lot like the action of someone who deliberately wanted to engage in a bit of argy-bargy. And it left me wondering, why?
post #2 of 18

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

Small question, big answer.

Why does anyone look for confrontation in any sphere of their life?
post #3 of 18
Thread Starter 

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC
A cycle lane is a lane. When it goes through an intersection, the right hand side of that lane is marked a broken white line. It's identical to a normal lane, just thinner.
Except where there is no broken line, in which case the bike lane is deemed to end at the start of the intersection (paraphrasing ARR 153(4)(b)).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC
Drivers are required to check they are not about to cause a collision when switching or crossing lanes. Why should this be any fundamentally different to bike lanes?
It's not and shouldn't be. But this wasn't a lane merge, it was a turn and rule 141(2) is clear: you can't ride past on the left of another vehicle that's indicating a left turn. (Despite the fact that this appears to make speed-up-to-turn-left-in-front-of-the-cyclist move "legal"--although I'm sure I've seen something that prohibits that somewhere.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC
Indeed, does the law truly not have a couple of hidden hard to find clause somewhere that would put the driver at fault by basically saying "cross lane+collision && bike lane==lane => your fault" if you hired an expensive enough lawyer?
Agreed, but let's not get started on lawyers! They love it when we talk about them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC
As to your question "do some look for confrontation". Dunno. What I suspect is that anyone who thinks their life was just placed at risk is going to go off their heads just a little -- adrenaline does that.
Yes, I know the feeling. And I've certainly let fly the odd adrenaline-charged spray when I've felt unduly threatened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC
People just differ in their threshold of what consitutes a risk to their life, and what proportion of the risk lies on their own head.
You're dead right, but in this case the rider had a lot of control over the level of risk. It may have got lost a bit in the telling but I did say:

Quote:
There was time and space for the rider to slow or stop to avoid the car but he chose to continue
And that's basically the crux of my pondering: given the choice to back off or escalate a potentially risky encounter (that could've included things like bouncing off and sustaining a head injury), why would any rational person choose the latter? This guy increased the risk, apparently so that he could act the aggrieved victim--not a particularly pleasant way to carry on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC
He might have been going hard and not seen the blinkers (but seen the green light?), hence may have mentally assigned 100% of the blame on an apparently non indicating motorist. I can't remember -- was this during the day? Lots of cars have extremely hard to see indicators, that I could easily imagine being completely invisiblefrom certain angles.
I could easily keep up with him, so he wasn't exactly flogging it. :-)

It was fully dark but raining, so I'll grant that there might have been some visibility issues. But we were approaching straight from behind with the cars stationary at the lights through to the end of a red light cycle, so I really can't imagine that he didn't see the indicators.

The rain was a detail I didn't mention, but it adds texture to the story. And another question: why would you go thundering in when your ability to stop and/or manoeuvre is compromised by the wet conditions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC
"Indicators: There are controls in each vehicle that cause little bits of coloured plastic to flash on and off at the corners of your vehicle. Pretty, aren't they?" -- friend of Richard Sherratt in aus.bicycle
Apposite. One to you, sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by byron27
Why does anyone look for confrontation in any sphere of their life?
Hoo, philosophy! And I was only looking for pragmatism. I think that's taking it out into deep water...
post #4 of 18

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

On Tue, 1 May 2007 18:33:42 +1000, treadly&me wrote:

> -*Q. Was he justified in his rage and aggression?*-


No, he was definitely in the wrong, since the car was indicating.

But sometimes when you slow down and wait for a car to turn,
the driver decides to wait for you, and everyone grinds to a halt.
Drivers trying to give way when you're clearly waiting for them
to take their right of way are a major irritant IMHO.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw
post #5 of 18

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

On Wed, 02 May 2007 01:01:29 +1000, Aeek wrote:

> Which is why I often pull out of the bike lane and slot in behind.


That's definitely better if there's room to push in.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw
post #6 of 18

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC
A cycle lane is a lane. When it goes through an intersection, the
right hand side of that lane is marked a broken white line. It's
identical to a normal lane, just thinner. Drivers are required to
check they are not about to cause a collision when switching or
crossing lanes. Why should this be any fundamentally different to
bike lanes? Sure, drivers aren't usually held responsible for things
behind them -- rear enders are deemed to be the fault of the party
doing the colliding in all situations (all but the exceptions that
prove the rule -- except when your lane merges into someone elses.
Let's not forget that all drivers can use the bike lane 50M prior to the junction. I believe it would be better if left turning drivers were required to move in to the lane, remove the ambiguity from the situation.

A few months ago I had a driver pull out of a side street in to traffic, travel approximately 20 meters and then without indicating turn left down the following side street. It was peak hour and even uphill I was going a fair bit faster than him and had to brake rather hard to avoid a collision.

If the driver had stayed in the bike lane, as he was legally able to do, there would have been no ambiguity.
post #7 of 18

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

me wrote:

> I was riding in the bike lane, approaching red traffic lights. There
> were a couple of cars stopped at the lights, with the one in the
> adjacent lane indicating for a left turn. There was another rider a
> few lengths ahead of me.
>
> As the other rider was almost level with the car indicating a turn,
> the lights changed to green and the car started to move to make it's
> turn. The bike rider, clearly intending to go straight ahead,
> continued his pace unchanged--swerving with the car as it cornered,
> shouting at the driver and bashing repeatedly on the car.


> Let's go to the road rules, specifically 'Rule 141'
> (http://tinyurl.com/22ssmq):
>
>>
>> (1) A driver (except the rider of a bicycle) must not overtake a
>> vehicle to the left of the vehicle...
>>

>
> So far, so good: cyclists are allowed to pass on the inside. However:
>
>>
>> (2) The rider of a bicycle must not ride past, or overtake, to the
>> left of a vehicle that is turning left and is giving a left change of
>> direction signal.
>>

>
> -*A. No.*-
>
> So the rider couldn't have been more wrong and his ignorance of the
> road rules makes his self-righteous pounding on the innocent driver's
> car somewhat pathetic.


A valid question would be "Is the bicycle lane a lane?" If it is then the
car was clearly in the wrong. If it isn't, why mark it as one. I think the
cyclist was in the right. Still not a good reason to bash the car.

Theo
post #8 of 18

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo Bekkers

A valid question would be "Is the bicycle lane a lane?" If it is then the
car was clearly in the wrong. If it isn't, why mark it as one. I think the
cyclist was in the right. Still not a good reason to bash the car.

Theo
If on approaching the intersection the car driver signalled an intention to turn left, he/she had the right (when it is safe to do so)to move into the bicycle lane within 50m of the intersection, and quoted R. 141 (2) clearly requires bicycles behind that left turn signalling car not to pass it on the left. It seems the car did not enter the bicycle lane for what ever reason... we dont know (already full of bikes, nothing there, just changed mind about the turn..whatever) , so the car was stopped in the full traffic lane , prior to stopping it may or may not have been indicating a left turn, but it was in a place that conceivebaly allowed riders to pass on the left physically, (and legally if not signalling). It is also possible after stopping the driver decided to turn left and then signalled, and the signal could not be seen be a rider positioned to the left in the bicycle lane. This wouldnt excuse the driver from just turning into the bike lane and in that instance the driver should wait till the vehicle to its left, ( the bicycle/s beside it) cleared the lane.

We are speculating here of course , but this seems a likely scenario that may have also raised the angst of the rider. The driver may have signalled late.

It just goes to show that you always have to keep your wits and be observant and expect the worse.
post #9 of 18
Thread Starter 

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo Bekkers
A valid question would be "Is the bicycle lane a lane?" If it is then the car was clearly in the wrong. If it isn't, why mark it as one. I think the cyclist was in the right. Still not a good reason to bash the car.
No, I still reckon the cyclist was wrong, and the status of the bike lane is not relevant here. (Stick with me, I'll get there in the end...)

Road rule 153(4) says:

Quote:
A bicycle lane is a marked lane...
And elsewhere in the rules, a "marked lane" is defined as

Quote:
an area of a road marked by continuous or broken lines, or rows of studs or markers, on the road surface that is designed for use by a single line of vehicles
So Theo's right: a bicycle lane is indeed a traffic lane.

But rule 153(4) goes on to say that one of the things that terminates a bike lane is

Quote:
an intersection (unless the lane is at the unbroken side of the continuing road at a T–intersection or continued across the intersection by broken lines)
And neither of these exceptions applied in this case, so the bike lane ended at the stop line and the driver was not crossing or merging into the bike lane--he was simply turning left at an intersection. And in this case, rule 141(2) definitely applies: the cyclist must not pass on the left of the left turning vehicle.

Therefore, the cyclist was wrong for attempting such a pass. (Phew, made it!)

This is, of course, a fundamental problem with bike lanes: conflict (or collision!) is likely wherever a bike lane meets turning traffic. I guess that's why we're starting to see those weird arrangements where the turning lane and the bike lane swap places. I don't know if that's better, but at least it doesn't imply that either lane has priority.

But let me return to another important point: a principle underlying the road rules is that everyone drive/ride in a manner that avoids collisions. So even if the driver were in the wrong, the cyclist was also in the wrong because he didn't act to avoid a collision despite having enough time and space to do so. (And "in the wrong" is not a good position from which to deliver a self-righteous pounding...)
post #10 of 18
Thread Starter 

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rooman
We are speculating here of course , but this seems a likely scenario that may have also raised the angst of the rider. The driver may have signalled late.
I agree that a late or completely absent signal would be angst-raising (it would certainly get me riled). But that's not what happened in this case: the car was signalling a turn well before we arrived--there was nothing unexpected about what the driver intended.

This gets back to what puzzles me: the other rider's aggro was just so unjustified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rooman
It just goes to show that you always have to keep your wits and be observant and expect the worse.
Certainly can't argue with that!
post #11 of 18

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

me wrote:
> Theo Bekkers Wrote:
>> A valid question would be "Is the bicycle lane a lane?" If it is then
>> the car was clearly in the wrong. If it isn't, why mark it as one. I
>> think the cyclist was in the right. Still not a good reason to bash
>> the car.

>
> No, I still reckon the cyclist was wrong, and the status of the bike
> lane is not relevant here. (Stick with me, I'll get there in the
> end...)
>
> Road rule 153(4) says:
>
>> A bicycle lane is a marked lane...

> And elsewhere in the rules, a "marked lane" is defined as
>
>> an area of a road marked by continuous or broken lines, or rows of
>> studs or markers, on the road surface that is designed for use by a
>> single line of vehicles

> So Theo's right: a bicycle lane is indeed a traffic lane.
>
> But rule 153(4) goes on to say that one of the things that terminates
> a bike lane is
>
>> an intersection (unless the lane is at the unbroken side of the
>> continuing road at a T-intersection or continued across the
>> intersection by broken lines)

> And neither of these exceptions applied in this case, so the bike lane
> ended at the stop line and the driver was *not* crossing or merging
> into the bike lane--he was simply turning left at an intersection. And
> in this case, rule 141(2) definitely applies: the cyclist must not
> pass on the left of the left turning vehicle.


Doesn't it also say that the motorist should move into the left (bicycle)
lane before turning?

> Therefore, the cyclist was wrong for attempting such a pass. (Phew,
> made it!)
>
> This is, of course, a fundamental problem with bike lanes: conflict
> (or collision!) is likely wherever a bike lane meets turning traffic.
> I guess that's why we're starting to see those weird arrangements
> where the turning lane and the bike lane swap places. I don't know if
> that's better, but at least it doesn't imply that either lane has
> priority.
>
> But let me return to another important point: a principle underlying
> the road rules is that everyone drive/ride in a manner that avoids
> collisions. So even if the driver were in the wrong, the cyclist was
> also in the wrong because he didn't act to avoid a collision despite
> having enough time and space to do so. (And "in the wrong" is not a
> good position from which to deliver a self-righteous pounding...)


Totally agree. Attacking a one tonne vehicle, designed to protect the driver
from injury in a moderate collision with another one tonne vehicle, the
operator of a 10 kg vehicle on which they are totally unprotected is also
not that wise.

Theo
post #12 of 18

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

Duncan wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:


>> Doesn't it also say that the motorist should move into the left
>> (bicycle) lane before turning?


> No doubt Mr. "I'm pissed off" would be doubly so if he came upon the
> intersection and found the car stopped in the bike lane waiting to
> turn left.


He'd probably be upset if the lights were red.

Theo
post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo Bekkers
Doesn't it also say that the motorist should move into the left (bicycle) lane before turning?
Good point. Having established that the bike lane is a "marked lane" and that cars may enter the lane for up to 50m before turning, it would seem that cars should be moving into the bike lane to make left turns, including at traffic lights.

Hands up who wants that to happen all the time? (Personally, I'd prefer a clear run through to the bike box, if there is one.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
No doubt Mr. "I'm pissed off" would be doubly so if he came upon the intersection and found the car stopped in the bike lane waiting to turn left.
I'll put him down as a "No" then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo Bekkers
He'd probably be upset if the lights were red.
Nah, he's just roll through. He obviously wouldn't let anything so trivial slow him down.
post #14 of 18

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

me wrote:
> Theo Bekkers Wrote:


>> Doesn't it also say that the motorist should move into the left
>> (bicycle) lane before turning?

>
> Good point. Having established that the bike lane is a "marked lane"
> and that cars may enter the lane for up to 50m before turning, it
> would seem that cars -should- be moving into the bike lane to make
> left turns, including at traffic lights.
>
> Hands up who wants that to happen all the time? (Personally, I'd
> prefer a clear run through to the bike box, if there is one.)


You'd prefer that the car turned across your lane as you were going straight
on?

Theo
post #15 of 18
Thread Starter 

Re: Do some cyclists seek confrontation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo Bekkers
me wrote:
> Hands up who wants that to happen all the time? (Personally, I'd
> prefer a clear run through to the bike box, if there is one.)


You'd prefer that the car turned across your lane as you were going straight
on?
No, but maybe I should clarify: I'd prefer a clear run to the bike box while the traffic is stationary.
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