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# Simoni power estimation

According to http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...y07/may31news2 :

Gilberto Simoni (Saunier Duval-Prodir) conquered the 10.1-kilometre Monte Zoncolan in 1850 metres per hour according to La Gazzetta dello Sport. The speed, 39 minutes over the 1203 metres, 1850 VAM (Velocity Ascended, Metres per hour Vm/h), was faster than that of Ivan Basso on the Maielletta Passo Lanciano in 2006, 1805 VAM. Marco Pantani blasted up the Alpe d'Huez with a 1791 VAM and Danilo Di Luca did the final four kilometres of Tre Cime di Lavaredo with a 1750 VAM.

-----

The steep climb reduces the influence of rolling resistance and wind resistance. Rolling resistance losses were further reduced by the fresh pavement.

Profile of the climb:

vertical gain: 1200 meters
effective climbing from rolling resistance (assume Crr = 0.5%) : 10.1 km * 0.005 = 50.5 meters
net effective climbing rate = (1200 + 50.5) / 1200 * 1850 = 1928 m/hr

Assume CdA =~ 0.3 m^2
speed = 10.1 km * 1850 m/hr / 1200 m / 3.6 (m/s / km/hr) = 4.32 m/sec
Assume rho = 1.2 kg / m^3
wind power = 4.32^3 * 1.2 * 0.3 / 2 = 14.6 watts (slightly less from drafting, slightly more from nonuniform speed).

climbing + RR power = 1928 m/hr / 3600 s/hr * 9.8 m / s^2 = 5.25 W/kg (total weight)

Assume bike + stuff = 9 kg
body = 60 kg

power/body mass = 5.25 W/kg * (69 / 60) + 14.5 W / 60 kg = 6.28 W/kg for 0.65 hours.

--------------
So, for Old La Honda (393 meters, 7.3%, Woodside, CA), assuming Crr = 0.6%, assuming a critical power model with AWC/CP = 60 seconds:

OLH time = 13.88 minutes (6.56 W/kg)

(I solved this iteratively)

These numbers are not at the level of the great Alpe d'Huez climbs. But we knew that already about Simoni...

Dan

### Re: Simoni power estimation

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
news:MUE7i.10458\$2v1.7847@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
> According to
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...y07/may31news2 :
>
> Gilberto Simoni (Saunier Duval-Prodir) conquered the 10.1-kilometre
> Monte Zoncolan in 1850 metres per hour according to La Gazzetta dello
> Sport. The speed, 39 minutes over the 1203 metres, 1850 VAM (Velocity
> Ascended, Metres per hour Vm/h), was faster than that of Ivan Basso on
> the Maielletta Passo Lanciano in 2006, 1805 VAM. Marco Pantani blasted
> up the Alpe d'Huez with a 1791 VAM and Danilo Di Luca did the final
> four kilometres of Tre Cime di Lavaredo with a 1750 VAM.
>
> -----
>
> The steep climb reduces the influence of rolling resistance and wind
> resistance. Rolling resistance losses were further reduced by the
> fresh pavement.
>
> Profile of the climb:
>
> vertical gain: 1200 meters
> effective climbing from rolling resistance (assume Crr = 0.5%) : 10.1
> km * 0.005 = 50.5 meters
> net effective climbing rate = (1200 + 50.5) / 1200 * 1850 = 1928 m/hr
>
> Assume CdA =~ 0.3 m^2
> speed = 10.1 km * 1850 m/hr / 1200 m / 3.6 (m/s / km/hr) = 4.32 m/sec
> Assume rho = 1.2 kg / m^3
> wind power = 4.32^3 * 1.2 * 0.3 / 2 = 14.6 watts (slightly less from
> drafting, slightly more from nonuniform speed).
>
> climbing + RR power = 1928 m/hr / 3600 s/hr * 9.8 m / s^2 = 5.25 W/kg
> (total weight)
>
> Assume bike + stuff = 9 kg
> body = 60 kg
>
> power/body mass = 5.25 W/kg * (69 / 60) + 14.5 W / 60 kg = 6.28 W/kg
> for 0.65 hours.
>
>
> --------------
> So, for Old La Honda (393 meters, 7.3%, Woodside, CA), assuming Crr =
> 0.6%, assuming a critical power model with AWC/CP = 60 seconds:
>
> OLH time = 13.88 minutes (6.56 W/kg)
>
> (I solved this iteratively)
>
> These numbers are not at the level of the great Alpe d'Huez climbs.
>
> Dan
>

Andy Coggan's data for power to weight ratio are:
Time
1 min 5 min 20 min
World Champ 11.50 7.60 6.62
World Class 10.90 7.06 6.14

It interpolates to a world class performance.

Phil H

### Re: Simoni power estimation

Phil Holman wrote:
> "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message

>> power/body mass = 5.25 W/kg * (69 / 60) + 14.5 W / 60 kg = 6.28 W/kg
>> for 0.65 hours.
>>

In another forum, it was pointed out I overestimated wind resistance, due to the climb being a significant altitude. This would reduce the power to 6.26 W/kg. OTOH, I only guessed at CdA, using 0.3 m^2, and at Crr, using 0.5%.

>
> Andy Coggan's data for power to weight ratio are:
> Time
> 1 min 5 min 20 min
> World Champ 11.50 7.60 6.62
> World Class 10.90 7.06 6.14
>
> It interpolates to a world class performance.

Interesting. But then, that only puts Simoni in Bettini's class as a climber on 20-minute hills .

Dan

### Re: Simoni power estimation

Dan Connelly wrote:
> Phil Holman wrote:

>> Andy Coggan's data for power to weight ratio are:
>> Time
>> 1 min 5 min 20 min
>> World Champ 11.50 7.60 6.62
>> World Class 10.90 7.06 6.14
>>
>> It interpolates to a world class performance.

>
> Interesting. But then, that only puts Simoni in Bettini's class as a
> climber on 20-minute hills .
>
> Dan

One point of comparison: Andrew deals in "SRM power", while I tend to deal in "Powertap power", and the two differ by the drivetrain efficiency....

So an estimated 6.26 W/kg, assuming a drive train efficiency of 97%, becomes 6.45 W/kg up the Zoncolan. And the estimated power up OLH, 6.56 W/kg becomes 6.76 W/kg.

Dan

### Re: Simoni power estimation

On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 03:44:30 GMT, Dan Connelly
<d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:

>Phil Holman wrote:
>> "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message

>
>>> power/body mass = 5.25 W/kg * (69 / 60) + 14.5 W / 60 kg = 6.28 W/kg
>>> for 0.65 hours.
>>>

>
>In another forum, it was pointed out I overestimated wind resistance, due to the climb being a significant altitude. This would reduce the power to 6.26 W/kg. OTOH, I only guessed at CdA, using 0.3 m^2, and at Crr, using 0.5%.
>
>
>>
>> Andy Coggan's data for power to weight ratio are:
>> Time
>> 1 min 5 min 20 min
>> World Champ 11.50 7.60 6.62
>> World Class 10.90 7.06 6.14
>>
>> It interpolates to a world class performance.

>
>Interesting. But then, that only puts Simoni in Bettini's class as a climber on 20-minute hills .

Which might be perfectly fair, but what happens on a 40 minute hill? That's
where real climbers distinguis themselves. It's kinda hard to think of a 20
minute hill as a "sprinters climb" but by comparison.

Just more proof of what a badass the cricket is.

Ron

### Re: Simoni power estimation

RonSonic wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 03:44:30 GMT, Dan Connelly
> <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:
>
>> Phil Holman wrote:
>>> "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
>>>> power/body mass = 5.25 W/kg * (69 / 60) + 14.5 W / 60 kg = 6.28 W/kg
>>>> for 0.65 hours.
>>>>

>> In another forum, it was pointed out I overestimated wind resistance, due to the climb being a significant altitude. This would reduce the power to 6.26 W/kg. OTOH, I only guessed at CdA, using 0.3 m^2, and at Crr, using 0.5%.
>>
>>
>>> Andy Coggan's data for power to weight ratio are:
>>> Time
>>> 1 min 5 min 20 min
>>> World Champ 11.50 7.60 6.62
>>> World Class 10.90 7.06 6.14
>>>
>>> It interpolates to a world class performance.

>> Interesting. But then, that only puts Simoni in Bettini's class as a climber on 20-minute hills .

>
> Which might be perfectly fair, but what happens on a 40 minute hill? That's
> where real climbers distinguis themselves. It's kinda hard to think of a 20
> minute hill as a "sprinters climb" but by comparison.
>
> Just more proof of what a badass the cricket is.
>
> Ron

Bettini probably has an AWC/CP more than the 60 seconds I assumed for Pantani and Simoni, so is probably able to produce a relatively larger increase in power at shorter durations.
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